Quick Diachronics Challenge

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Creyeditor
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 23 Feb 2017, 00:27

Here is another proposal of mine: **gʷʲaɠa
Spoiler:
Image
Proto-Red: *peʔe
> peʔei > pe.ei > pejei > pejei
> peʔei > pøiʔei
> pé.e >pé.ɛ̀ >pʲé.ɛ̀ > pʃé.ɛ̀>pʃɛ̂ > pʷʃɛ̂ > pʷʃʷɛ̂ > pʃʷɛ̂ > pʃwɛ̂ > pʃwɛ̂

Proto-Black: *kʼe.u
> kʼe.e
> kːe.u >kːew
> kːe.u >ke.u

Proto-Darkblue: *tʃæʔæ
> tʃæʔe > ʃæʔe > ʃaʔe >ʃaʔi > ʃʌʔi >ʃʌ́ʔi >ʃʌ́.i >ʃʌ́.ì > ʃʌ́.ì
> tʃæʔe > tɕæʔe > ɕæʔe > ɕæʔe > ɕə́ʔ.ɕé
> tʃæʔe > tʃʲaæʔe >tʃʲɑeʔe >tʃʲɑeʔ >tʃʲɒeʔ > tʃʲoeʔ > tʃʲoeʔ > tɕʷʲəih
> tʃʲæʔæ > tʃʲæʔa > tʃʲɑʔa > tʃʲɒʔa > ʃʲɒʔa > ʃʲœʔa > ʃʲœʔa > ʃʲœ́.â >ʃjœ́jâ >ʃjœ́jâ

Proto-Lightblue: *xʷiʔ.ga
> xyʔ.ga > xy.ga
>xiʔ.ga > >xeʔ.ga > xeːʔ.ga

Proto-Green: *we.ge
> we.gei
> weɣe > weʁe > weʀe > were > weɻe >wɚ >wɚ̀
> weɣe > weɣi > wei > wéí

Proto-Yellow: *gʷʲaʔ
>gʷʲeʔ > gʷʲêʔ > gʷʲê > gʲʷê
>gʷʲeʔ > gʷʲêʔ > gʲêʔ > gʲê >gʲē > ɟē
>gʷʲeʔ > gʷʲêʔ > gʲêʔ > gʲê > gjê
> gʲøʔ > gʲɵʔ > gʲʉʔ >ɟʉʔ > cʉʔ
> ɟʷaʔ > ɟʷàʔ > ɟʷà
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Harkani » Mon 27 Feb 2017, 16:41

Since no one else has chimed in since about Wednesday, I figure I can at least reveal the answer.

The proto-word is /kʷjøh˥˩-ɟa˥˩/, with an optional suffix in ɟa˥˩/.

The biggest thing no one could catch on to was the mutation of /jø/ and the re-analysis of /kʷj/ as /kᶣ/ in certain languages (I.E. the southern languages, the . Sometimes it was reanalyzed as a back vowel and became /o/, other times it lost its roundedness and became /o/. As for the words /kːew/, /kʼeu/, /kʼe.e/, and /keu/, the main difficulty most have had is accounting for these languages, when in fact these were just incredibly divergent and not at all representative of how the rest of the languages evolved (I.E. lack of tone, evolution of fortition and glottalization, diphthongization of /ø/).

As far as winners, it's Adarain, with the runners-up being Linguifex and Creyeditor.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Mon 27 Feb 2017, 18:45

How did the voiced word initial plosives come about? Was the first syllable deleted?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Harkani » Mon 27 Feb 2017, 20:25

Creyeditor wrote:How did the voiced word initial plosives come about? Was the first syllable deleted?
No. Those came about mostly as a result of a sound rule voicing the initial consonant of every word. That's why there are languages with /w/ as an initial and not just /ʍ/.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Mon 27 Feb 2017, 22:05

Harkani wrote:Since no one else has chimed in since about Wednesday, I figure I can at least reveal the answer.

The proto-word is /kʷjøh˥˩-ɟa˥˩/, with an optional suffix in ɟa˥˩/.

The biggest thing no one could catch on to was the mutation of /jø/ and the re-analysis of /kʷj/ as /kᶣ/ in certain languages (I.E. the southern languages, the . Sometimes it was reanalyzed as a back vowel and became /o/, other times it lost its roundedness and became /o/. As for the words /kːew/, /kʼeu/, /kʼe.e/, and /keu/, the main difficulty most have had is accounting for these languages, when in fact these were just incredibly divergent and not at all representative of how the rest of the languages evolved (I.E. lack of tone, evolution of fortition and glottalization, diphthongization of /ø/).

As far as winners, it's Adarain, with the runners-up being Linguifex and Creyeditor.
Gahhh. It wasn't disyllabic. If it weren't for that! The tonality thing was actually pretty strange. Usually it's one of the more changing parts of a syllable, yet here, it seems like actual change was just mainly dropping the tone, or smoothing. I do note, however, that my reconstruction contains /kʷj/. I unfortunately didn't catch on that the original vowel was rounded!

How did forms like pejei develop though? /hɟa˥˩/ doesn't seem like proper conditioning environment
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 00:38

Welp, it's been almost two weeks already.

To Adarain,

I wouldn't want this thread to die just yet, so I humbly suggest posting a puzzle of your own or handing the torch to someone else. And to Harkani: what a fascinating puzzle here. Though I didn't thoroughly participate in the event, it was mindfuckery all the way. So much research, so little time...

Bravo, good chap!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 19:56

Inkcube-Revolver wrote: To Adarain,

I wouldn't want this thread to die just yet, so I humbly suggest posting a puzzle of your own or handing the torch to someone else.
I am sorry, I didn't even see that someone wanted to make me the winner. I did fuck all except posit a guess and then later give up. Plus I don't have a puzzle and won't have one for quite a while (we're talking perhaps months). Were I to just throw something together, it wouldn't be a good one.
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Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 20:48

I am sorry, I didn't even see that someone wanted to make me the winner. I did fuck all except posit a guess and then later give up. Plus I don't have a puzzle and won't have one for quite a while (we're talking perhaps months). Were I to just throw something together, it wouldn't be a good one
That's unfortunate. Then perhaps Linguifex or Creyeditor should give it a go. If both of you have yours ready, then maybe we could use this thread and the other one qwed117 had mentioned in the past simultaneously, since we tried doing that before and no one's opted to go about it. If neither of you two have a map ready, then whoever had one should post it for everyone else to solve.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 21:47

Or, you know, first come first served. If someone has a good one, please post it. Anyone. Since I was apparently chosen winner, I open it up to whoever wants to.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Sat 11 Mar 2017, 23:15

That could work, too.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Sun 12 Mar 2017, 00:12

So, to make everybody happy, here is my challenge:

Orinial size
Spoiler:
Image
Small size
Spoiler:
Image
Here is my first hint:

There are three major sub-families.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Sun 12 Mar 2017, 17:41

I have a reconstruction set, but I'm going to sleep on it some more, not quite content with it. Not asking for hints here, not yet anyhow, just keeping y'all posted. I'll tinker around with it more once I'm at work.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » Sun 12 Mar 2017, 20:55

Was bored. No longer the case.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Tue 14 Mar 2017, 01:36

Hmm...
tʰɵ'sœ̃k?

The groups? t[+pal], s[+pal], k[-plo]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 14 Mar 2017, 11:31

This is not too that far from the truth. Still some significant things that are missing/too much/different from what I had in mind.
I cant really figure out your exact grouping the features you gave. I guess a part of it is right and a part of it is not, but two out of three features that you use for classification arose either relatively late in the history of these languages or came about from different sources/in different ways.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » Tue 14 Mar 2017, 15:16

So here i come:
Spoiler:
Image
Protoform is along the lines of *tʰVtsẽkt~tʰVtsẽtk

First split is between ttsẽt (green) and everyone else. Green simplified the final cluster to *t where all other simplified it to *k

tssẽ maybe green too but for now i'll posit it is closer to tissẽk rather.

Next split is between red-orange and purple; red-orange lenited k -> ç while purple didn't. Red-orange further displays ts -> s consistently.

The split between red and orange is that red underwent tʰ -> tʃ

Yellow split from the rest of orange by debuccalization of the final fricative there.

tsasɛ̰̃ and tsasɛ̃ are interesting in that they seem to have had ç > h independently of yellow and tʰ > ts.

Now to purple: purple had something like ts>ss, and maybe ss>ʃʃ or straight ts>ʃʃ in blue. ɬɪssẽk seems to have underwent tʰ>ɬ where all others had tʰ>t.

The second vowel in blue goes places, and i can't tell why exactly. Maybe it's some sort of chesirization from the vanishing of the final cluster. Something similar might also explain the first vowel in red-orange but then with the medial *ts cluster.

təʃʃɔ̃kʷ and təʃʃɔ̃p are explained by labialization after a rounded vowel, in this case ɔ̃, and then kʷ>p, which is fairly usual. təʃʃɛ̃tʃ had palatalization after a front vowel then kʲ>tʃ, while təɕɕɛ̃k on the other hand palatalized before the front vowel.

The further developments on green that also happened in purple i ascribe to areal effects between green and it's purple neighbors.

Depending on how i solve the vowels, which are really tricky, i might opt rather for an isogloss based approach.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals » Tue 14 Mar 2017, 17:55

Spoiler:
Image
I hope this pic explains enough! My theory was that the three different groups concern the first consonant.

Alternatively the vowel could be a schwa and instead of the geminate /s/ there could be a /ts/ as well. I can't decide which one would fit best so I propose four similar ideas:

tʰassɛ̃k ~ tʰəssɛ̃k ~ tʰətsɛ̃k ~ tʰatsɛ̃k

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 14 Mar 2017, 18:34

Wow, this is fast. Some of of your subgroupings and changes are sound really close, Loglorn. Even the explanations. And Ixals, you are probably as close as anyone will get with the protoform and most of the subfamilies. I prepared another hint, but I will only post it, if someone still wants me to.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » Tue 14 Mar 2017, 18:43

Creyeditor wrote:Wow, this is fast. Some of of your subgroupings and changes are sound really close, Loglorn. Even the explanations. And Ixals, you are probably as close as anyone will get with the protoform and most of the subfamilies. I prepared another hint, but I will only post it, if someone still wants me to.
Just do it. As it seems we're really close we'll either stay about as close or nail it.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain » Tue 14 Mar 2017, 18:46

Well, I'm bored. So let's give it a shot too. First just some thoughts I get from staring at the map:

First of all, I am not convinced the final is a cluster. It would certainly be convenient, readily explaining the alteration between the scattered coronals in the west and the more persistent velars in the east. Treating /tS/ as a single consonant, there is not a single form showing any hints of a coda cluster. I'd reckon based on the existence of both coronal and dorsal outcomes that the original coda was palatal, perhaps *c or *kʲ

Almost exceptionless, the form of the word is CVCVC. In some cases it's CVC:VC, never more, and any deviations can be quite easily shown to be derived from one of these forms.

Something curious is going on with rounding: There are three distinct instances of rounding found on the map:
Spoiler:
Image
Red: Final VC rounded
Green: Initial V rounded (remains front)
Blue: Initial V rounded and backened

Blue is in an area in which the initial V tends to be /a/, in which case a change of the sorts of a→ɑ→ɒ(→ɔ) is not unlikely. The other two demand an explanation though. The simplest explanation would be that the medial C was actually rounded - a possibility, but there's no further data to back it up. Alternatively, there could've been some other rounded segment in the language. The rounding also appears to corellate with the existence of /S, tS/ rather than expected /s, ts/ in that in the eastern two rounded branches, those rounded vowels are always adjacent to an esh. Another possibility is that the roundedness of one of the vowels was there to begin with.

It seems quite obvious that the second V was nasalized.

This is a map of all vowel isoglosses:
Spoiler:
Image
However, this doesn't seem very useful. Instead, here are two more maps:
First vowel:
Spoiler:
Image
In the west, this is very straightforward. In the east there's a bit of a mess (summarized as "not a"), but generally speaking the eastern vowels are [+front][+high] compared to the western ones.

Second vowel:
Spoiler:
Image
Much more straightforward. All vowels appear to be either /ɛ̃/ or simple derivations of it (lowered in blue, raised in red, rounded in purple)

Next, I decided to see if there are any subgroups with trivial reconstructions and found that I could find lots of pairs. I assume this is due to how the map was constructed (presumable along the lines of a binary branching tree, perhaps with some overlaid isoglosses):
Spoiler:
Image
Some of the reconstructions aren't exactly amazing (and I've put a question mark before the least certain ones). In particular, the far east one is odd as it has a dorsal-coronal alteration in an otherwise very clearly related form. That protoform may also have had a development along the lines of *k→kʲ→c→cç→tʃ, initially motivated by the preceding front vowel. In fact, after thinking about this while typing it out, I now prefer that solution. The other questionmark is about the reconstructed *tɬ yielding t and ɬ. This form probably derives from an older *tʃ, which would be reasonable considering the surrounding forms.

I'll now see if I can get anywhere by working with the new "reduced" dataset. First, the forms, from west to east. I'll omit the nasalization marker as combining diacritics and monospace fonts don't get along and I'm absolutely certain this is an original feature of the proto-form. With the exception of (3), where the final vowel has devoiced, all final vowels are nasalized in the reconstructed forms. (8) is not a reconstruction.

Code: Select all

(1)   tʰɛsan̥
(2)   tʰazah
(3)   tʰasɛ̥
(4)   tʰasɛS
(5)   tʰɒsɛç
(6)   tsasɛ̰
(7)   tʃɶsɛk
(8)   ʃasɛk
(9)   tsːet
(10) ?tɬIsːek
(11)  təʃːɔkʷ
(12) ?təSːɛk
Forms 1-5 seem very closely related. All share the onset tʰ; 2-5 have an initial vowel that can be traced back to /a/; all reflect a medial consonant /s/. 1-2 have a final vowel /a/, the rest /ɛ/. Additionally, among 1-2, three synchronic forms show a debuccalized coda, the last has a voiceless n, which I first assumed to be the older form, but now think might also be derived from h, "absorbing" the nasality of the preceding vowel.
It is quite clear that 3-5 form a coherent group. The placement of 1 and 2 is more problematic - they may form their own subgroup, with the initial vowel in 1 being an innovation, or 2 might be closer to the other group, with 1 being the outlier. I assume the former is the case, leading me to the following reconstruction (now assuming (1) to end in /h/ instead, but ultimately it wouldn't matter anyway for the final step of the reconstruction):

Image

Then taking data from outside this group into account, the V is likely to be the /ɛ̃/ of the protoform. The S is some voiceless fricative - it may be anything from ʃ~ɕ~ç, but I doubt that it's retroflex due to the lack of retroflexes anywhere else.

(6) can fit into this reconstruction without requiring any adjustment to the proto-form (the final consonant, whatever it was, drops, leaving creaky voice; the aspiration turns into affrication), but it could just as well be connected to another neighboring form instead (which at least superficially it looks like it does - I will form a conclusion later).

7-8 also definitely form a coherent group. I reconstructed (7) as tʃɶsɛk, (8) is a synchronic word ʃasɛk. *tʃasɛ̃k strikes me as the most likely reconstruction here, with the rounding being an innovation of 7. I don't like just passing off a feature as an "innovation", but I don't see it as a likely feature of the protolang. (6) again neatly fits into this reconstruction, requiring merely tʃ→ts and Vk→V[+creaky]. Basically, I'm just going to ignore (6). It isn't relevant to the reconstruction either way.

The two forms I've reconstructed thus far (*tʰasɛ̃S, *tʃasɛ̃k) may well be a coherent group. I don't know what the initial consonant of the proto-form would be, but the coda is probably *k, which may have palatalized in 1-5 (k→c→ç) under influence of the front vowel. This would give a Proto-(1-8) of *Tasɛ̃k. Whether 1-8 are actually a complete subbranch remains to be seen though.

(9) is a bit weird. It completely dropped its initial vowel and has a higher second vowel than most other forms, a feature shared only with neighboring (10). However, unlike (10), the coda is reflected as t. There are two possible explanations here: One or both forms of (9) is very divergent (loglorn's hypothesis) or the -t is actually a reflex of earlier *k. This may seem a bit unlikely at first, but consider the following: Coronals are acoustically more neutral; a change velar->alveolar is weird from an articulatory standpoint, but not unreasonable acoustically, especially next to a front vowel - and on top of that word-finally, where plosives are often harder to distinguish anyway. It may also be motivated by the coronal in the onset. I will for now assume that k→t happened. Under this assumption, 9-10 readily form a group. The lateral in 10 poses a bit of a problem - I assume it comes from an earlier tʰ, which is a bit odd but I can accept it (the alternative is assuming it's part of the proto-form and perhaps derives from an even earlier tʃ. I will keep this possibility in mind but not use it for now). To recall, the forms we're working with are tsːẽt and tɬIsːẽk. These then readily provide a proto-form in *tʰIsːẽk.

This leaves us with two forms, (11) təʃːɔkʷ and (12) təSːɛk. Again, the rounding wants an explanation, and here I'm much more inclined to say that it might've been original in some way, as it comes with backing and all. Of course, the development could be similar to (5) instead, but it just seems a bit out of place, and in both words in (11) the rounding seems to be the primary feature, spreading over the whole VC segment, while back in (5) it looked much more like some rounding caused by backing. I assume therefore that the final consonant carried rounding, which was lost in 12 but spread to the vowel in 11. This leads us with *təʃːɛ̃kʷ for Proto-(11-12)

Those are then the three major groups: 1-8 with *Tasɛ̃k; 9-10 with *tʰIsːẽk and 11-12 with *təʃːɛ̃kʷ.

Bringing it together:

The first consonant clearly had some form of aspiration or affication. Seing as we find *tʰ in two branches (turns to tʃ in one major subbranch) I posit that as the proto-form
The first vowel could be many things *a(→ə(→ɪ)) is a possibility, but I don't like it. *e with changes in all subbranches is a possibility too. My favourite is *ə though, which lowered (perhaps due to a stress change onto the first syllable) in 1-8 and got retained in the others, with 9 then dropping it and 10 raising it.
The middle consonant is definitely a geminate. I'm going to assume it was sː, with a palatalization in 11-12.
The final vowel I've long established as "very likely to be ɛ̃" and my proto-forms agree with that sentiment.
The coda looks from this data set to be kʷ, but this is all dependent on a correct grouping and reconstruction of 11-12, otherwise it's probably k.

Thus my guess: *tʰəsːɛ̃kʷ
Edit: While I wrote this, three new comments appeared. Looking at it, I appear to have had mostly the same conclusions as ixals, albeit a slightly different grouping in the eastern parts.
Edit: Also damn, this got a bit rambl-y
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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