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Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Mon 12 Dec 2016, 05:42
by Inkcube-Revolver
The main goal here besides seeing others figuring out the puzzle is how they do so: I want to see the multiple ways a single word can possibly change when given enough time, as it might give me interesting new insights into historical linguistics and the malleability of sounds. So hopefully this'll be as interesting to the challengee as it'll be to the challenger. It's not going to be anything too complex for now (at least I don't think so), so without further ado:

Guess the Protoform !!!

D(aughter) 1: ēva "river"
D2: áppa "water"
D3: ákkə "(archaic) river; waterfall"
D4: ə́kwo "lake, ocean"
D5: ájwo "meander; (metaphorically) lazy, slow, sluggish"
D6: ájū "river"
D7:éjʋo "rain"
D8: kýf "rain," kýva "rainy"
D9: ēxə "storm, rainfall"
D10: ӯx(ə) "storm"

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2016, 07:33
by Auvon

Code: Select all

1     2     3     4
Ø     ē     v     a
Ø     á     pp    a
Ø     á     kk    @
Ø     @'    kw    o
Ø     á     jw    o
Ø     á     j     ū
Ø     é     jv    o
k     y'    v     a
Ø     ē     x     @
Ø     y_    x     @
There's obviously intervocalic voicing going on, that plus variation between labial and velar points to 3 being /k_w/. Probably lenition from /k_w/>/g_w/>/j_w/ intervocalically for the languages with /j/. For the initial consonant, that must just be prothesis. For vowel 2: I propose a front vowel, likely e. I can imagine long e breaking and becoming a, so ē. /u/ becoming /o/ seems more likely than the other way around (though o:>u), so u.

Thus:

ḗkʷu, "river"

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2016, 13:35
by Creyeditor
My guess is (and was from the beginning): *ˈa.kʷa - water
Spoiler:
I thought this was a clever joke, actually

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Tue 13 Dec 2016, 20:33
by Inkcube-Revolver
There's obviously intervocalic voicing going on, that plus variation between labial and velar points to 3 being /k_w/. Probably lenition from /k_w/>/g_w/>/j_w/ intervocalically for the languages with /j/. For the initial consonant, that must just be prothesis. For vowel 2: I propose a front vowel, likely e. I can imagine long e breaking and becoming a, so ē. /u/ becoming /o/ seems more likely than the other way around (though o:>u), so u.

Thus:

ḗkʷu, "river"
In regards to kýva, it's not simply prothesis. It's why I also included kýva "rainy" as a counterpart to kýf. The lenition is on point, as it does tend to play a big role in some forms (don't know if that gives too much away or not).

The forms you two have guessed are close, but some very essential parts of the puzzle are still missing.

Here are three more Daughter-forms that will hopefully light the way:

D11: ə́xō "mist"
D12: ɣuβá "water; fountain, spring, well"
D13: fúxə "waterfall"
D14: kōa "water, spring, pond"
D15: (ə)kɯ́ə "water, spring"

Also important to note that most forms are not as preservative, as evidenced from how varied they tend to get, but there is a pattern at play. I have a final hint, and if it's needed, I'll drop the mic –– I mean clue.

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2016, 01:02
by qwed117
guis guis. The k isn't prothesis; it's the old kw. Remember the tabular diachronic system only works once homologous phones have been identified.

I'll say ḗkʷuha is my guess

That being said, there is already athread for this.

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Wed 14 Dec 2016, 04:53
by Inkcube-Revolver
qwed117 wrote:guis guis. The k isn't prothesis; it's the old kw. Remember the tabular diachronic system only works once homologous phones have been identified.

I'll say ḗkʷuha is my guess
Closer-ish, but not quite there. I'm half-afraid that this thing is a tad convoluted now.
qed117 wrote:That being said, there is already athread for this.
Thanks! I'll see if there are any loose ends to cover with my own puzzle, and try and solve yours and a couple of others that may be left stranding.

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Sat 28 Jan 2017, 06:42
by Inkcube-Revolver
To Another Conlanger,

I'm kind of wondering if anybody wants to actually figure out the protoform for this. It may not be über fun or anything, but the ones who were guessing it were getting really close. If no one wants to figure it out, someone else could give a swing on this thread, I have given my blessing.

Regards,

- Inkcube-Revolver

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Wed 01 Feb 2017, 16:01
by loglorn
And here i come:

My guess is *əkʷɨfa ~ əkufa
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

1     2     3     4     5     
ē     ∅     ∅     v     a
á     ∅     ∅     pp    a
á     kk    ∅     ∅     ə
ə́     k     ∅     w     o
á     j     ∅     w     o
á     j     ∅     0     ū
é     j     ∅     v     o
∅     k     ý     v     a
ē     ∅     ∅     x     ə
∅     ∅     ȳ     x    (ə)
ə́     x     ∅     ∅     ō
∅     ɣ     u     β     á
∅     f     ú     x     ə
∅     k     ō     ∅     a
(ə)   k     ɯ́     ∅     ə
The first vowel appears to be a schwa, it is deleted in all daughters it is not stressed (D8,10,12,13,14,15) and could become easily both a and e if stressed, and stressed a e don't seem likely to become schwas as D4 and D11 would suggest.

Lengthening in D1 is due əj -> ē and in D9 something like əhʉ -> ē

k j x ɣ point to *k. It is unclear whether the rounding is at the consonant (*kʷɨ) or at the vowel (*ku). In D13 i posit something like kʷ > xʷ > f happened

The vowel in position 3 is probably high, as all but one of its non-zero outcomes are high vowels, it's hard to tell if its front or back so i have it central. If it's not central it's most likely back, especially if it is the original bearer of rounding.

The second consonant is probably *f, it underwent intervocalic voicing in D1-7 and D12 and lenition f > h > x in D9, D10 and D13. It's hard to tell which happened in D14 and D15. It remained untouched in D8.

The last vowel was probably *a, reduced in unstressed positions to schwa in D10, D13, D15 and presumably D8.

I could posit a family tree, but i'm not going that far.

If i'm wrong you might as well reveal the answer and tell me what i got wrong.

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Thu 02 Feb 2017, 19:56
by Inkcube-Revolver
And here i come:

My guess is *əkʷɨfa ~ əkufa
This was the closest: the protoform is *akúpa

What basically happened is that *akúpa was the original form, and the stressed moved to the front for about half of the daughterforms moved to the very last syllable for one or two forms, and stayed central in the rest. I'll go one by one.
Spoiler:
*akúpa > *ákupa > *ájuɸa > *ə́jβa > *ēβa > D1: ēva
>*ájuɸa > D5: *ájwo

*akúpa > *ákupa > *ákpa (by assimilation) D2: ákka, D3: áppa

*akúpa > ákupa > ákupo > ə́kuɸo > D4: ə́kwo

*ákupa > óxuɸa > óxuwə > D11: ə́xō

*akúpa > ajúɸa > *əjúɸa > *júɸa > júxə > D10: ȳx(ə)
>*ə́juɸa > *ə́jxa > D9: ēxə

*akúpa > *agúba > *ájuβa > *ájuwə > D6: ájū
*ájuβa > D7: éjʋo
*agúba > *əgubá > D12: ɣuβá

*akúpa > *əkúpa > *kúba > *kúbə, *kúba > *kuv, *kuva > *kyv, *kyva > D8: kýf (devoices at coda), kýva

(For D13, if I remember correctly, it went like this): *akúpa > *əpúka > *əɸúxa > D13: fúxə

*akúpa > *əkúɸa > əkúwa > kówa > D14: kōa
*əkúwa > D15: (ə)kɯ́a (old *u and *w merge kind of wonky here)
Hopefully this clears it up, and that you've had some enjoyment out of this. I had fun seeing you all figuring it out, and if you want to do something similar, I've greenlit this page for anyone who wants to take a whack at it. I appreciate the attempt, Loglorn, and commend you for your efforts. Thanks for playing

GUESS THE PROTOFORM !!!

β ɸ ɯ ɣ ō ʋ

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Thu 02 Feb 2017, 20:43
by loglorn
Should have seen the /p/, D2 and D3 made a lot more sense if that was a plosive. I did have fun, but i'd have gotten nowhere as close without qwed's method.

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Fri 03 Feb 2017, 03:09
by qwed117
Image

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Fri 03 Feb 2017, 07:39
by Inkcube-Revolver
Dammit, qwed, you being good at reconstructions at all (don't worry Auvon, you did great, too)!

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Fri 10 Feb 2017, 00:09
by Inkcube-Revolver
Ok, this will be a second thread for anyone else interested in doing reconstructions since there's a bit of a wait in the other thread with qwed, loglorn, and myself amongst others.

To k1234567890y, ixals, and any other users, if you have an interest in playing this game, then comment down below, I'll gather the names and will devise a way to pick who goes first. The poll for entering will close on 6 pm Saturday EST, if that seems like enough time or if there are any objections, let me know!

Now... who wants to

GUESS THE PROTOFORM ?!?!

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Fri 10 Feb 2017, 02:14
by loglorn
I have a map ready. It'll probably be a somewhat easy.

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Sat 11 Feb 2017, 20:55
by Inkcube-Revolver
Just a few more hours till we start with a new set here; if anyone wants to join in, now's your chance to pipe up!

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Sat 11 Feb 2017, 20:56
by qwed117
I think I'm a sure entry.

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Sat 11 Feb 2017, 21:40
by Clio
I'm definitely going to want to "guess that protoform" but probably not provide a challenge for others, although I'm not entirely sure whether you need people to sign up just to guess (nor why that would ever be necessary).

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Sat 11 Feb 2017, 21:49
by Inkcube-Revolver
I'm just going to select the names by random, and from there whoever guesses correctly goes next, like in the other thread. If there aren't many here by 6 pm (EST), like if there's just the three of us, I'll figure something else out.

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Sat 11 Feb 2017, 22:14
by Creyeditor
I definitely want to guess, but I won't provide a challenge I guess.

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Posted: Sun 12 Feb 2017, 04:10
by qwed117
I think he intends for the chosen person to make the challenge.