Batħaso - The Orkish language

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Salmoneus
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by Salmoneus » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 21:12

Sorry if I missed it, but what are the specifically 'orkish' features of the language in your view?
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by Keenir » Thu 26 Jan 2017, 04:18

Salmoneus wrote:Sorry if I missed it, but what are the specifically 'orkish' features of the language in your view?
Its spoken by orcs - isn't that sufficient?

---------------------------

great work thus far; am enjoying reading about this conlang.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799
Iyionaku
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 26 Jan 2017, 13:50

Imralu wrote:I'm curious about the bilabial consonants because most depictions of orks have projecting lower canine teeth that emerge between the lips. I would have expected bilabial fricatives and approximants but not full-closure stops ... or do your orcs lips fit so snugly around the teeth that there is a full closure? Or do they lack projecting teeth?
Coming back to that, I got the response that the Orks are truly like you have described them. /b/ and /p/ remain as phoneme description (as this is how Humans and Elves are pronouncing them), but the Orks realize them as [ʋ] and [p̪], respectively.
Salmoneus wrote:Sorry if I missed it, but what are the specifically 'orkish' features of the language in your view?
I don't get your question right. Do you mean that the language is not stereotypical enough? No, I did that on purpose. The language isn't cliché, but is sometimes seen as such due to ignorance by Humans and Elves. Do you mean you cannot see a cultural reference to a different race? That's true, and I'll come to the peculiarities of Orkish culture soon, don't worry.
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


Oh, and there is a [ɕ] in my name!
Salmoneus
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by Salmoneus » Thu 26 Jan 2017, 16:33

Iyionaku wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:Sorry if I missed it, but what are the specifically 'orkish' features of the language in your view?
I don't get your question right. Do you mean that the language is not stereotypical enough?
Well, if your 'job' is specifically to make a language for a particular species, presumably some sort of sense of who or what the speakers are should in some way influence the result. It doesn't have to be 'cliché', but at least personally I'd feel a bit like I was ducking the commission if all I did was pick up some random other conlang and slap "orkish" on the title page but not make anything else different. After all, this is an entirely different species, you'd think they'd be a little non-human in some way or another. So other than it saying "the Orkish language" in the thread title, what makes it different from a non-Orkish language?

And artistically/narratively, the job of a conlang in a work of fiction is to present something about the speakers. Again, that doesn't have to be a cliché. If orks say "ushk mizgatluk karshtgar", that gives a certain impression of them; if they say "sperenthi lioralian kithoi", that gives a different, and very un-cliché impression of them. If they say "tiioshinaabe misukaatle'owiinwe", that gives an impression too. And for those readers interested enough to look at the grammar, the grammar gives an impression too. So what impression are you trying to create, and how does that impression relate to the orks of the novel?

Not trying to be critical here, I'm just curious what your thought processes are in making specifically this, rather than anything else, what ork-speech in this novel will look like.
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 26 Jan 2017, 21:40

Ok I think I got you. I will explain it soon to you as broad as I can; however, not today anymore as it's quite late already in Middle Europe and my head slowly ceases to function properly. [:)]
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


Oh, and there is a [ɕ] in my name!
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by gestaltist » Fri 27 Jan 2017, 13:09

I am enjoying this thread quite a lot. I like you presentation style.

Two questions:

1) how do Orcs have a "classical grammar" if they don't even have writing? This strikes me as odd.
2) the word krħedst seems to be incompatible with your syllable structure - /s/ is not a liquid, after all
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by Iyionaku » Sat 28 Jan 2017, 13:23

Salmoneus wrote: Well, if your 'job' is specifically to make a language for a particular species, presumably some sort of sense of who or what the speakers are should in some way influence the result. It doesn't have to be 'cliché', but at least personally I'd feel a bit like I was ducking the commission if all I did was pick up some random other conlang and slap "orkish" on the title page but not make anything else different. After all, this is an entirely different species, you'd think they'd be a little non-human in some way or another. So other than it saying "the Orkish language" in the thread title, what makes it different from a non-Orkish language?
(...)
There were a few "design principles" I had:

a) The language should be clearly distinct from human or Elf language (hence many features only occasionally or not found in Indo-European language, like Ergativity, agglutination, aspects, VSO word order, productive reduplication).
b) The language should sound/look like an average reader would expect Orks to speak, i.e. lots of guttural consonants, "harsh" sounding, short syllables etc., quite influenced by Black Speech and similar Ork languages as well. Also, it had to fit to some place and people names my friend already created.
c) The Orks have a nature-bound and individual culture, which is expressed by some details in lexicon I couldn't come to yet.

Apart from that, I was relatively free. It's still in a normal world, and there are only about 300,000 Orks altogether and the language has been mildly influenced by Elfish.
gestaltist wrote:1) how do Orcs have a "classical grammar" if they don't even have writing? This strikes me as odd.
Hit and sunk [xD]

To be honest, this idea only came to me while writing the thread, yes, this is completely odd. The truth is that this is my grammar, i.e. the grammar I stated first, but while translating texts it appeared to function differently. (Maybe the Elves have developed a grammar for Orks, who knows? [:O] )
gestaltist wrote:2) the word krħedst seems to be incompatible with your syllable structure - /s/ is not a liquid, after all
No it's not; but the syllable is valid anyway. I used the wrong word when writing this; it is only fricatives that are allowed to occur at this section. In fact, "krħedlt" wouldn't be a valid syllable (but two, after all).
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


Oh, and there is a [ɕ] in my name!
Iyionaku
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by Iyionaku » Sat 28 Jan 2017, 13:45

3. Syntax

Word order

The main word order is Verb - Subject - Object. However, the word order can be varied freely between subject, object and several adverbials; the verb, however, always appears after mood and aspect particles and before the nouns.

Sentence types

There are five types of affirmative sentences:

1) Intransitive: Verb + Subject in Absolutive case
2) Active: Verb + Agent in Ergative case + Patient in Absolutive case
3) Passive: Verb + Patient in Indirective case (+ Agent in Instrumental case)
4) Antipassive: Verb + Agent in Absolutive case (+ esht + Patient in Indirective case)
5) Reciprocal: Verb + Participant I in Indirective case + Participant II in Indirective case

Example sentences:

1) Gratst xadsh.
eat cat.ABS
The cat eats.

2) Gratst xadshez tshimb.
eat cat-ERG mouse-ABS
The cat eats the mouse.

3) Gratst tshimbizh (xadshizt).
eat mouse-INDR cat-INST
The mouse is eaten (by the cat)

4) Gratst xadsh (esht tshimbizh)
eat cat.ABS (ANTP mouse-INDR)
The cat eats (from the mouse).

5) Krtak trezhdizh ħuzdzuzh.
beat human-INDR Elf-INDR
The human and the Elf are hitting each other.

The passive (that normally does not occur in Ergative-Absolutive languages) is an areal feature most likely borrowed from the Elves. However, the structure itself is older. It is used to express reflexivity:

Khek ħort Ogrokuzh medzhizt.
PERF wash Ogrok-INDR 3SG-INST
Ogrok washed himself.

Compared to:

Khek ħort Ogrokz medzh.
PERF wash Ogrok-ERG 3SG.ABS
Ogrok washed him/her. (i.e. anyone else).

And:

Khek ħort Ogrok esht medzhizh.
PERF wash Ogrok-ABS ANTP 3SG.INDR
*Ogrok washed (of someone else).
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


Oh, and there is a [ɕ] in my name!
Iyionaku
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by Iyionaku » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 12:59

Questions and pseudo questions

There are two types of asking for information in Batħaso. The first one is asking a grammatical question, which is done by raising the pitch of the sentence-final word and/or usage of question words like sħebt (where), post (when), drb (what) and others.

Gratst penkebz ptrelzhekt?
eat may=1SG.ERG cake.ABS
May I eat cake?

Didihel, poshok post?
mother-liking, come=2SG.ABS when
Mommy, when do you come home?

However, this usage is heavily discouraged due to cultural reasons; generally, it is only acceptable for little children to ask questions like this (and for rethorical questions like What the f*** have you done!?. Orks believe that people who have to ask are weak; hence a various number of replacement constructions are used among older children and adults. Those constructions have in common that an assumption in the potential mood (shels) is made; the other person can answer with ħash if the assumption is correct, otherwise he replies with heh and the correct answer. The constructions are described below.

Polar questions

In polar questions, the statement is just said in the potential mood without any modifications. Hence, it can be really difficult to distinguish a polar questions from a epistemic possibility; often they overlap.

Shels khek khratst tomsko.
POT PERF cook father=2SG.GEN
Has your father cooked? OR: I am sure that your father has cooked.

H'ash. | Heh.
Yes (he has). / No (he has not).

Who? / What?

The person or thing that is asked for is replaced by shamadzh/shomodzh (someone) and shots (something) respectively.

Shels khek magrints shomodzhoz kxush.
POT PERF help someone-ERG 2SG.ABS
Who helped you? [Surely someone helped you.]

Note that the sentence above cannot mean "Did someone help you?": This would be produced by means of double negation.

Shels zar magrints zarmadzhez kxush.
POT NEG help nobody-ERG 2SG.ABS
Did someone help you? [Surely not nobody helped you.]

Why?

This structure is maybe the most complicated. It requires an entire subordinate clause. If you want to ask "Why did you give the man money?" you're going to say:

Shels patshennzek khek xradekz ptarkuzh remztshek.
POT have_reason=2SG.ABS PERF give=2SG.ABS man-INDR money
You surely had a reason to give the man money.

The verb patshennz roughly translates as "to have a reason" and the structure "Shels patshennz" + Subject is the most natural translation for "why", as chunky as it sounds.

Other questions

Other questions use dummy arguments as well, but the structure is easy to learn. They are not set in stone, but the ones I'll mention below are used in like 90% of the time.

Where? - durb (here)
When? - than (now, yet)
How? - shapħar (somehow)
Which? - nash (nice, beautiful)

The latter requires some explanation (the others should be obvious). If you want to ask "Which car did you drive last night?" one would say:

Shels phehsħalekz krħedstshek nash tnazhixt.
POT drive=2SG.ERG car.ABS nice.ABS night-TERM
Which car did you drive last night? | You surely drove a nice car last night.

Todo next: "What's your name? How old are you? Where are you from?" As well as reciprocal ("bounce-back") questions
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


Oh, and there is a [ɕ] in my name!
Iyionaku
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Re: Batħaso - The Orkish language

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 12:28

Reciprocial questions

Reciprocial questions are questions where you have received information from your dialog partner and want to receive the same information from them. Example in English:

Katherine: "Where are you from, Susan?"
Susan: "Oh, I'm from Corkney! And you?"
Katherine: "Oh, I'm from the States."


Susan's question is what I call a reciprocial question. In Orkish, those questions are formed a little differently. Instead of bouncing the question back (hence using the default dummy argument) you use the Habituative Aspect (which here functions as also) and "bounce back" the answer you have provided. With that, you show him that you find him sympathetic and hence assume that he must have something in common with you! So, the dialog above in Orkish would be:

Katka: "Zuzon, shels heks poshokz durb.
PROP, POT INGR come=2SG.ERG here.ABS
Susan, you are surely from here.

Zuzon: Heh, heks poshobz Tarakpattekt!
no, INGR come=1SG.ERG PROP
No, I'm from Tarakpattekt!

Zuzon: Shels shtu poshokz drebt.
POT HAB come=2SG.ERG there.ABS
Surely yo are from there too.

Katka: "Heh, heks poshobs Lundun!
no, INGR come=1SG.ERG Prop
No, I'm from London!

So generally spoken: The discourse with a reciprocial question is like this:

A: Shels + topic + dummy argument
B: Ħash/Heh + topic + ANSWER_B
B: Shels + shtu + topic + ANSWER_B
A: Ħash/Heh + topic + ANSWER_A

What's your name?

If you want to ask for someone's name, the way you ask differs remarkably whether you ask a man or a woman. If you ask a man, you will assume that his name is Ogrok as this is the most common name among Orks.

Shels hrontokz Ogrok.
POT be_named=2SG.ERG Ogrok
Surely your name is Ogrok.

Again, if my name is not Ogrok and I want to "bounce back" the question, I will assume that he has the same name as I do.

Heh, hrontobz Ishionaku. Shels shtu hrontokz Ishionaku.
no, be_named=1SG.ERG Iyionaku. POT HAB be_named=2SG.ERG Iyionaku
No, my name is Iyionaku. Surely your name is Iyionaku too.

If you want to ask, a woman, it's the other way round: You make an assumption with a name that is extremely unlikely for an Orkish woman to have. The exact implementation varies from tribe to tribe, some tribes will even use names that are very common for women from another, hostile tribe. As an example, you could ask for the name Angela.

Shels zar hrontokz Angela.
POT NEG be_named=2SG.ERG Angela
Surely your name is not Angela.

Unlike answering with "Heh" (no), you will answer with "Heh zet" (Of course not!) However, if you want to bounce back that question to a woman, you will again assume your own name. If you want to bounce back the question to a member of the opposite sex, you will use the same question as before, as is shown below:

Heh zet! Hrontobz Jazhi. Shels hrontokz Ogrok.
no NEG, be_named=1SG.ERG Jazhi. POT be_named=2SG.ERG Ogrok
Of course not! My name is Jazhi. Surely your name is Ogrok.
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


Oh, and there is a [ɕ] in my name!
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