Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

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Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 02:21

𠊛語 (Ởnh·Vú)
Thanks to qwed117 for introducing me and showing me a ton of info on the language family I used to create this project [:)]. Hopefully I'll get better at uploading the character images. I'm planning on sharing a google doc as soon as I can get my own personal one in order

Ởnh·Vú or People's language is a member of the Chamic language family spoken in parts of Vietnam and China. For most of the language's history it was spoken orally. In order to separate the written form of the language from Chinese, Chữ Nôm characters came to be used. Despite overwhelmingly not being pronounced like in Vietnamese, the use of Chữ Nôm helped distinguish Ởnh·Vú words from Chinese words as well as eliminating a huge number of would be homonyms

Phonology/Romanization:
Ởnh·Vú is romanized with a modified/simplified form of the Middle Vietnamese alphabet. In addition to being used for languages written in the Latin alphabet, the romanization system also functions as Ởnh·Vú's most common set of ruby characters

Initials:
/m n/ <m n>
/p t k g/ <p t c/k/q g/gh>
/ɓ ɗ/ <b đ>
/ʈ͡ʂ ɖ͡ʐ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ/ <tr đr ch gi>
/ʂ~s ʐ~z ɕ/ <s r x>
/β ð ɣ/ <ꞗ d kh>
/w l j/ <v l y>

Finals:
/m n ŋ/ <m n nh>
/p̚ t̚ c̚ k̚/ <p t ch c>
/ɻ/ <r>

Vowels:
/i ɨ u/ <i ư u>
/e ə o/ <e ơ o>
/a/ <a>
/wo/ <uo>
All vowels can additionally be followed by /j/ (written as <y> syllable finally and <i> elsewhere) and /w/ (written as <o>)


Tones:
/˧ ˧˩ ˧˥ ˧˩˧ ˦˧˥/ <a à á ả ã>

Allotony:
/˧/ is pronounced as [˦] after /˥/ and /˦˧˥/
/˧/ is pronounced as [˨˧] after /˧˩/
/˧˩/ is pronounced as [˩] after /˧˩/
/˧˩/ is pronounced as [˨˩] after /˧˩˧/
/˧˥/ is pronounced as [˥] after /˧˥/ and /˦˧˥/
/˧˥/ is pronounced as [˦˥] after /˧˩˧/
/˧˩˧/ is pronounced as [˨˩˧] after /˧/

Numbers:
The go-to example for the different uses of Chữ Nôm in Ởnh·Vú is the number system which uses Chữ Nôm for native numbers and traditional characters for those imported from Chinese. Chinese numbers occur in a large number of often math based counters.

Traditional Numbers:
1: 𠬠 (Sa)
2: 𠄩 (Đư)
3: 𠀧 (Sỏ)
4: 𦊚 (Pãt)
5: 𠄼 (Ley)
6: 𦒹 (Nam)
7: 𦉱 (Tủ)
8: 𠔭 (Sưinh)
9: 𠃩 (Lảnh)
10: 𨑮 (Sủ)
100: 𤾓 (Rãch)
1000: 𠦳扜 (Ri·Ꞗo) (Only ever used for one thousand. Chinese numbers used for all numbers above that)

Chinese Numbers:
1: 一/壹 (It)
2: 二/貳 (Nì)
3: 三/參 (Sam)
4: 四 (Sì)
5: 五 (Vó)
6: 六 (Luc)
7: 七 (Tít)
8: 八 (Bet)
9: 九 (Cú)
10: 十/拾 (Gip)
100: 百 (Bac)
1000: 千 (Tén)
10,000: 萬 (Mừn)
100 Million: 億 (Ưc)
One Trillion: 兆 (Đrớ)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Thu 11 Jan 2018, 06:16, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by IEPH » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 03:47

Looks like an interesting language. Looking forward for more.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by k1234567890y » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 04:00

looks nice (: seems that we are having more Sinosphere languages there.

However, it seems that most people make Austronesian-based ones, and I use a West Germanic language for a sinosphere language(Town Speech/Urban Basanawa, you can find it at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5813 ) which might be far-fetched for you all...
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Frislander » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 12:49

k1234567890y wrote:However, it seems that most people make Austronesian-based ones
Chamic is a subbranch of Austronesian, specifically the subgroup that is spoken in SEA.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by qwed117 » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 14:42

Frislander wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:However, it seems that most people make Austronesian-based ones
Chamic is a subbranch of Austronesian, specifically the subgroup that is spoken in SEA.
Well, technically all of Malayo-Polynesian is either spoken in Oceania or SEA. More accurate would be Aceh (since Acehnese is actually Chamic), and Mainland SEA. Some evidence suggests that Borneo may have had a small Chamic population at one point.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Zythros Jubi » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 15:34

This reminded me of the yet to be started Mascarene-Seychelles Austronesian conlang project; where most the first settlers hailed from is a question. In OTL, the people of East Karimantan colonized Madagascar; so wherever to start is possible, ranging from Aceh/Champa, Philippines to even Taiwan. These groups are supposed to be converted to Hinduism and influenced by Sanskrit/Pali and Dravidian languages before 12th century, and a Brahmic (maybe Pallava-derived) script were introduced and used until recently; then it underwent more contact with Arabic and Swahili, and most merchants converted to Islam, but Muslims are mostly concentrated in urban areas. In early modern times, these islands were colonized by different European powers alternately (such as Netherlands, France and Portugal), then unified by France, and after Napoleonic Wars, by Great Britain. Today *there* it's a federative commonwealth republic (or perhaps a constitutional monarchy with a king of local origin) and local languages were Romanized, with Brahmic script reserved mainly for religious or ornamental uses.

Or, more interestingly, if setting the Urheimat further east, in Lesser Sunda for instance, some Papuan languages may be brought there as well.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Lao Kou » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 16:09

k1234567890y wrote:looks nice (: seems that we are having more Sinosphere languages there.

However, it seems that most people make Austronesian-based ones, and I use a West Germanic language for a sinosphere language(Town Speech/Urban Basanawa, you can find it at viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5813 ) which might be far-fetched for you all...
Vos iz Japoné語, gehakte leber? [;)]

But enough of that [:P]. Let's see some more of the funky Ởnh·Vú characters and language, please! [:)]
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名可名,非常名
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 21:17

Thanks for all the compliments everyone [:)]
Personal Pronouns
Seemed like the good follow up. Fairly straightforward but it'll get more complicated as things go on

倅 (Cư)- I (Informal)
伵 (Hũnh)- I (Formal)
𠋥 (Hanh)- You (Informal for close friends and family)
伴 (Bàn)- You (Informal for people who aren't close friends or family)
伮 (Nu)- He/She/It
𠵴 (Cứy)- We (Exclusive Informal)
众 (Đrí)- We (Exclusive Formal)/Reflexive Pronoun
𠵴些 (Cứy·Ta)- We (Inclusive Formal/Informal)
戶 (Ghep)- They
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Wed 16 May 2018, 01:11, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 26 Apr 2017, 21:47

Family Terms
As Ởnh·Vú lacks plural forms, all of the following nouns work as both the singular and plural forms. The gender neutral terms are most often used in the plural to refer to mixed gender groups. 2nd person pronouns are often replaced with corresponding family words while the word Sãnh replaces inclusive we when talking to one’s family

茹 (Sãnh)- House/Inclusive We (if talking to family members)
茹丁 (Sãnh·Tenh)- Family

Mixed/Plural/Gender Neutral Terms:
爸媄 (÷Dơ)- Parent
姑 (Tả)- Parent In-Law
𦓅ヌ𡛔 (Tủo·Tủo·In)- Grandparent (also means the elderly)
𡥵 (Ãc)- Child
小𡥵 (Sớ·Ãc)- Grandchild
𡥙 (Cứnh)- Sibling's Child (Nephew/Niece)
㛪怡 (A·Dì)- Younger Sibling
偀 (Ay)- Elder Sibling
偀㛪怡 (Ay·A·Dì)- Siblings/Brothers And Sisters
小㛪怡 (Sớ·A·Dì)- Younger Cousin
小偀 (Sớ·Ay)- Elder Cousin
小偀㛪怡 (Sớ·Ay·A·Dì)- Cousins

Male Terms:
爸 (Ã)- Father/Dad
姑爸 (Tả·Ã)- Father In-Law
𦓅 (Tủo)- Grandfather (also means old man and the verb “to be old”)
伯 (Ủit)- Uncle (Father's Side)
舅 (Va)- Uncle (Mother's Side)
翁 (Ũnh)- Husband
仉𡥵 (Ta·Ãc)- Boy/Son
小仉𡥵 (Sớ·Ta·Ãc)- Grandson/Nephew
仉𡥙 (Ta·Cứnh)- Nephew
仉㛪怡 (Ta·A·Dì)- Younger Brother
仉偀 (Ta·Ay)- Elder Brother
仉偀㛪怡 (Ta·Ay·A·Dì)- Brothers
小仉㛪怡 (Sớ·Ta·A·Dì)- Younger Male Cousin
小仉偀 (Sớ·Ta·Ay)- Elder Male Cousin
小仉偀㛪怡 (Sớ·Ta·Ay·A·Dì)- Male Cousins

Female Terms:
媄 (Đơ)- Mother/Mom
母 (Mé)- Mother/Mom (If talking to one's own mom or to one's own dad about one's own mom)
姑媄 (Tả·Đơ)- Mother In-Law
𦓅𡛔 (Tủo·In)- Grandmother (also means old woman)
伯𡛔 (Ủit·In)- Aunt (Father's Side)
嬸 (Ãy)- Aunt (Father's Brother's Wife)
舅𡛔 (÷In)- Aunt (Mother's Side)
媽 (Mứy)- Aunt (Mother’s Brother’s Wife)
𡞕 (Mò)- Wife
𡛔𡥵 (Bính·Ãc)- Girl/Daughter
小𡛔𡥵 (Sớ·Bính·Ãc)- Granddaughter
𡛔𡥙 (Bính·Cứnh)- Niece
𡛔㛪怡 (In·A·Dì)- Younger Sister
𡛔偀 (In·Ay)- Elder Sister
𡛔偀㛪怡 (In·Ay·A·Dì)- Sisters
小𡛔㛪怡 (Sớ·In·A·Dì)- Younger Female Cousin
小𡛔偀 (Sớ·In·Ay)- Elder Female Cousin
小𡛔偀㛪怡 (Sớ·Ta·Ay·A·Dì)- Female Cousins
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Fri 20 Jul 2018, 08:00, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Frislander » Wed 26 Apr 2017, 21:56

Interesting! So it looks like you're going half-way to a Sudanese kinship system, which I hear is how it's organised in Mandarin.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 26 Apr 2017, 23:49

Frislander wrote:Interesting! So it looks like you're going half-way to a Sudanese kinship system, which I hear is how it's organised in Mandarin.
Yeah that's actually a pretty good way to describe it. Sort of like it's on the way to a full blown Sudanese kinship but not yet. I'd say the biggest difference is that the gender neutral terms for cousin and sibling are typically the default and the gendered terms are mostly used for differentiation. So if you only have one older brother or sister there's no need for you to use the gendered term since it's clear which older sibling you're referring to
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Zythros Jubi » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 03:16

Why it's A·Dì instead of Tủo·Dì?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 03:56

Zythros Jubi wrote:Why it's A·Dì instead of Tủo·Dì?
Thanks for pointing that out. It's pretty difficult getting the characters in my posts and I accidentally used the character for Tủo instead of A's. Fixing that now. There are a few characters though that do have multiple pronunciations (not a lot though) and several of them are in the above list such as:

媄- Đơ or Do
舅- Wa or Ã
𡛔- In or Bính
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Thu 04 Jan 2018, 04:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Zythros Jubi » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 04:28

Do you have a set of Sino-Xenic pronunciation? You can make up Chu Nom/Sawndip-like characters instead of copying Chu Nom, using the same principle. The characters' phonetic components have nothing to do with actual pronunciation in most cases. BTW in Austronesian languages, adjectives follow nouns, so the word for "young" (小) should be preceded by a noun; similarly possesser follows the possessed noun, thus it should be Vú Ởnh.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 05:25

Zythros Jubi wrote:Do you have a set of Sino-Xenic pronunciation? You can make up Chu Nom/Sawndip-like characters instead of copying Chu Nom, using the same principle. The characters' phonetic components have nothing to do with actual pronunciation in most cases. BTW in Austronesian languages, adjectives follow nouns, so the word for "young" (小) should be preceded by a noun; similarly possesser follows the possessed noun, thus it should be Vú Ởnh.
I think part of Ởnh·Vú's charm is the disconnect between the written language and pronunciation and the main reason I started the language was to create something using Chu Nom.

Ởnh·Vú's syntax has become far more similar to Chinese especially with regards to adjectives. This is mainly due to the importation of Chinese compound nouns not being reordered when they were imported and that alongside other elements of grammar already present were big reasons as to why word order started to change

Also the character 小 is a Chinese borrowing isn't used as an adjective in Ởnh·Vú but rather only occurs in compounds.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Frislander » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 09:51

Zythros Jubi wrote:BTW in Austronesian languages, adjectives follow nouns,
That of course depends on whether Austronesian languages can be said to have adjectives as a separate class. But even then, I wouldn't say this would be universally true for a family as large as Austronesian (particularly looking at places like New Guinea which are motly verb-final despite the almost complete absence of verb-final languages elsewhere in the family), and it doesn't stop Chamic from undergoing such chanfe under the strong influence it underwent from Chinese.

EDIT: Page 493-4 of Blust's massive book on Austronesian as a whole talks about the issues regarding the status of adjectives in Austronesian, and gives examples from Tolai where the adjective-like modifier comes before the noun.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 19:25

Frislander wrote:That of course depends on whether Austronesian languages can be said to have adjectives as a separate class
This is one of the big reasons why it occurs in Ởnh·Vú. Adjectives aren't really a part of speech. They work identical to non-adjectival verbs even when preceding a noun
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Mon 01 May 2017, 23:12

Script Overview
The general rule for Ởnh·Vú's script is one character, one syllable, one pronunciation. Due to the language's not uncommon bisyllabic words, many words are spelled with 2 characters: the first one used to represent meaning while the second represents the pronunciation of the second syllable. 𠦳扜 (Ri·Ꞗo), the word for a thousand, is an example of this usage


Although the one syllable rule is never broken, the one pronunciation rule is on occasion broken. This occurs in 3 situations:
1. The word does not have a separate Chu Nom and uses a close equivalent that’s already used in other words with a separate pronunciation. This mostly occurs in polysyllabic words. The Bính in the word 𡛔𡥵(Bính·Ãc)- Girl is an example of this.

2. The word does not have a Chu Nom and uses the same traditional Chinese character used in Vietnamese to express the word, in addition to using that character’s borrowed pronunciation for Middle Chinese borrowings. This is the method most similar to onyomi/kunyomi distinction in Japanese. The character 越 is an example of this. It's pronounced as its native pronunciation, Yư, in the word for Vietnam 越南(Yư·Nơm) but retains its borrowed pronunciation, Hưt, in borrowed words such as 超越(Dớ·Hưt)- To Transcend.

3. The character is borrowed from Middle Chinese and had multiple distinct pronunciations there. This is the rarest of the 3 and the changes are typically very minute and native speakers may occasionally not realize there is a difference and may mispronounce words with this occurrence if they are unfamiliar with them. The character 行 is an example of this. It's pronounced Ánh in words such as 五行(Vó·Ánh)- Wu Xing, Ành in words such as 藝行(Nèy·Ành)- Career/Occupation, and Hanh in words such as 銀行(Vin·Hanh)- Bank.

4. A very small amount of characters might combine 2 and 3
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Sat 05 May 2018, 05:15, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Frislander » Tue 02 May 2017, 14:14

I do love the added complexity layered upon Sinitic scripts when they're used to write non-Sinitic languages, and this no exception.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 02 May 2017, 22:50

Frislander wrote:I do love the added complexity layered upon Sinitic scripts when they're used to write non-Sinitic languages, and this no exception.
Thanks [:D]. I'm quite a fan of that myself. It wasn't even something I thought about with the language until I started having to create words.
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