Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

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Creyeditor
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 31 May 2017, 19:37

That's actually pretty neat.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 31 May 2017, 20:42

Creyeditor wrote:That's actually pretty neat.
Thanks [:D]
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 31 May 2017, 20:46

Yes and No
Yes and no have a wide variety of translations in Ởnh·Vú depending on the verb they are used in response to as well as the level of formality

Formal Yes
Image
Formal No
Image
Informal
亞À- Yes (also means Asia, character used for its pronunciation)
空Ỏ- No

Sample Sentences:
Image
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Frislander » Fri 02 Jun 2017, 14:14

I'm liking those affirmative and negative responses! We don't see those all that often! I especially like that Sinitic loan for the formal "not have".

I like how instead of either going for a single particle for all cases, or with the verb-repetition strategy for all of them, you have a nice middle path with repetition permissible for a few common verbs. Is this a common pattern in Chamic or Southeast Asia more generally?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Sat 03 Jun 2017, 02:49

Frislander wrote:I'm liking those affirmative and negative responses! We don't see those all that often! I especially like that Sinitic loan for the formal "not have".
Thanks. I'm quite a fan of that borrowing myself
Frislander wrote:I like how instead of either going for a single particle for all cases, or with the verb-repetition strategy for all of them, you have a nice middle path with repetition permissible for a few common verbs. Is this a common pattern in Chamic or Southeast Asia more generally?
From my understanding that's typically how it's done in Mandarin although unlike in Ởnh·Vú it can be done with any verb even if it isn't always done so
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Mon 05 Jun 2017, 23:26

I don't think I have any grammatical or syntactical topics left so if you guys have any suggestions for posts I'm all ears [:D]
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 00:54

There's the sequential 'and'-stuff. You could embedd this in a general overview of clausal connectives.
Have we already heard anything about subordination? I would be interested.
Also you mentioned there is some construction where a verbs takes two objects, that are connected by possession. I would like to see concrete examples.
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All4Ɇn wrote:[...]
Creyeditor wrote:In the first example you do not need an object because the verb is intransitive and the 'street' is just a location expressed by some adverbial-like construction. In the second example on the other hand the 'street' has become a proper object that cannot be omitted (see third example) and gets accusative case. I know that some language (Mandarin Chinese, I think) have periphrastic constructions to make a verb take more objects than it usually does.
Ah I think I see what you're saying. As objects can be omitted situations like this don't typically happen. With Mandarin afaik a verb that takes 2 objects use two that are in some one way related to each other. Ởnh·Vú would use possession in this case and can only take one direct object without the use of a conjunction
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 01:01

Creyeditor wrote:There's the sequential 'and'-stuff. You could embedd this in a general overview of clausal connectives.
Have we already heard anything about subordination? I would be interested.
Thanks for reminding me of this. I'll cover clauses and conjunctions soon

Creyeditor wrote:Also you mentioned there is some construction where a verbs takes two objects, that are connected by possession. I would like to see concrete examples.
Sorry if I made it seem like it's a unique grammar point. What I was trying to say is that from what I can see verbs that take 2 objects seem to have one that is possessed by another. For example the verb could take both John and arm as objects. Rather than do this, Ởnh·Vú simply would use one object with something along the lines of john's arm.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 13:03

All4Ɇn wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:Also you mentioned there is some construction where a verbs takes two objects, that are connected by possession. I would like to see concrete examples.
Sorry if I made it seem like it's a unique grammar point. What I was trying to say is that from what I can see verbs that take 2 objects seem to have one that is possessed by another. For example the verb could take both John and arm as objects. Rather than do this, Ởnh·Vú simply would use one object with something along the lines of john's arm.
Maybe you could expand this constuction two other ditransitive constructions. It would be cool, if you could say 'I brought [you-DAT] [a present]' and 'I brought [your present].' both exist and these two would alternate according to some semantic or syntactic condition [:)]
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 16:10

Creyeditor wrote:Maybe you could expand this constuction two other ditransitive constructions. It would be cool, if you could say 'I brought [you-DAT] [a present]' [:)]
Well this construction already exists. Verbs can take both indirect and direct objects. They can't however take more than one indirect or direct without a preposition like they can in Mandarin
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 18:10

Creyeditor wrote:
All4Ɇn wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:Also you mentioned there is some construction where a verbs takes two objects, that are connected by possession. I would like to see concrete examples.
Sorry if I made it seem like it's a unique grammar point. What I was trying to say is that from what I can see verbs that take 2 objects seem to have one that is possessed by another. For example the verb could take both John and arm as objects. Rather than do this, Ởnh·Vú simply would use one object with something along the lines of john's arm.
Maybe you could expand this constuction two other ditransitive constructions. It would be cool, if you could say 'I brought [you-DAT] [a present]' and 'I brought [your present].' both exist and these two would alternate according to some semantic or syntactic condition [:)]
Sorry for bringing this up again. I guess I am just a bit too excited about this constrution [:D]
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 19:40

Creyeditor wrote:Sorry for bringing this up again. I guess I am just a bit too excited about this constrution [:D]
Well both very much are possible
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 20:01

Clausal Conjunctions
There are 2 kinds of clausal conjunctions: those that behave like relative clause nouns and those that don’t. There is no equivalent for the conjunction “that” and where it would be used the two sentences are simply joined together.

Those similar to relative clauses
𣅶 (Đrã)- When (present/future/recent past)
時 (Sưy)- When (distant past)
兜 (Lơnh)- Where
咦 (Hí)- What/which
咦牢 (Ha·Khet)- Why
芇 (Ỹ)- How/the way
𠓀𢗼 (Đỉ·Lo)- Before
耒 (Húy)- After
𠓀头 (Đỉ·Áo)- Until
Sample sentence:
倅䋃ヌ步𣅶 (Cư đrã·đrã lảt đrã)- I was fast when I walked (1S.FAM fast walk CONJ)


Others
間於 (Ghen·Đi)- While/at the same time as
爲 (Cao)- Because/since
耒 (Húy)- (And) then
咍 (Áy)- Or
雖 (Suy)- Although
𤳄 (Cúy)- So
以 (Nuinh)- In order to
Sample sentence:
倅䋃ヌ雖湄 (Cư đrã·đrã suy hứy)- I was fast although it was raining (1s.FAM fast CONJ rain)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 03:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 23:31

The order of the clause and the connective is different, right?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 07 Jun 2017, 00:00

Creyeditor wrote:The order of the clause and the connective is different, right?
Yep. In the top ones the clause comes before the connective while in the bottom ones they come after
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 11 Jun 2017, 20:50

Classifiers
Classifiers are placed between the number and the noun that they refer to. Classifiers are placed into 2 groups based on the kind of numbers they take: traditional or Chinese. Above 1000, all numbers are automatically Chinese numbers with no exceptions. Although Chinese counters tend to involve length and money, this is far from a rule and the which set of numbers a counter takes must be learned on its own. Below are some of the more common counters:

Traditional
𣘃 (Bè)- Long/thin/stick-like objects (bottles, rivers, ties, roads, sticks, etc.)
𧷺 (Bõ)- Round objects
丐 (Cà)- Any inanimate object without its own counter
𥟌 (Cả)- Bovids/deer
座 (Đừ)- Buildings/statues
鉗 (Ghém)- Fish/invertebrates
面 (Mèn)- Flat and smooth surfaces (e.g: flags, mirrors, walls)
人 (Nin)- People
瞂 (Pá)- Days
片 (Pẽn)- Thin/flat objects not made of paper (e.g: CDs, slices, movies, DVD’s)
𦑃 (Sãp)- Birds/bats
𦲿 (Vã)- Leaves, sheets and other thin items made out of leaves/paper
畫 (Vẽ)- Character strokes
回 (Vi)- Number of times/occurrences
𡓋 (Y)- Animals
神 (Yãnh)- Gods/spirits/holy people/weather phenomena

Chinese
倍 (Bứy)- Number of times something is multiplied
章 (Chanh)- Chapters
種 (Chónh)- Kinds/types/sorts
週 (Chu)- Weeks
層 (Đơnh)- Stories/Floors/Strata
銅 (Đunh)- Đồng
𣇞 (Đrả)- Hours
冊 (Đréc)- Books
之 (Mớ)- Seconds
年 (Nen)- Years
丿 (Pun)- Minutes
本 (Pứn)- Volumes (of books and movies)/issues (of magazines)/tv show episodes
歲 (Xờy)- Years of age
夜 (Yà)- Nights/overnight stays
曜 (Yè)- Days of the week
圓 (Yúin)- Yuan
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Sat 14 Apr 2018, 19:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by qwed117 » Sun 11 Jun 2017, 21:36

This is just a general question, but did this trait evolve from contact with Chinese and Austro-Asiatic? (and even less relevantly, are there any hypotheses linking that trait with Andamese?)
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 11 Jun 2017, 22:12

qwed117 wrote:This is just a general question, but did this trait evolve from contact with Chinese and Austro-Asiatic? (and even less relevantly, are there any hypotheses linking that trait with Andamese?)
From my understanding, Proto-Chamic developed classifiers due to contact with Mon-Khmer and then further borrowed some counters from Malay which went through a similar process on its own. Similar to some other Proto-Chamic languages, Ởnh·Vú further extended its number of classifiers due to contact with Chinese. I haven't seen anything about a relation to that with Andamese but I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 16:22

Since I've finished grammar and syntax as far as I'm aware would you guys be interested in me covering some of the more complicated characters with multiple readings?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Zythros Jubi » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 16:29

What's the etymology of the word for "hour"?
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