Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

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Omzinesý
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Omzinesý » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 15:41

eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 13:13
I don’t think that’s how the alienable vs inalienable opposition works IRL mostly.
What is unnatural in the system of the lang, then?
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All4Ɇn
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 18:40

Omzinesý wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 15:41
eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 13:13
I don’t think that’s how the alienable vs inalienable opposition works IRL mostly.
What is unnatural in the system of the lang, then?
I'm not sure either considering other East Asian languages have similar systems
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by eldin raigmore » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 20:42

Sorry!
First, I could be wrong.
Second, the only thing I think is not like most natlangs’ alienable-vs-inalienable opposition is:
Ordinarily it takes less morphological or lexical “weight” to express inalienable possession than to express alienable possession.
So if alienable possession only needs a one-syllable adposition, inalienable possession should need nothing at all, I think; and, in many languages, it doesn’t need anything except to position the possessor next to the possession.

——

I haven’t heard before of inalienable-possession being founded on the noun-class of the possessed noun.
However I have heard of an opposition between “dependent” nouns, which can’t be mentioned grammatically without also mentioning their possessor, and independent(?) nouns, which need not be possessed.
And it seems the sorts of things which are obligatorily possessed, in languages where that’s a thing, are mostly the same sorts of things that are often inalienably possessed, in languages where that’s a thing.

i seem to recall reading of some language/s that had both oppositions.

——

Can something be inalienably possessed at first, then later alienably possessed by a different possessor?
A pig inalienably possesses his ham. Then the butcher alienably possesses that ham, and sells it to me. Now I alienably possess it; I roast it up right and carve a slice off and serve it to my daughter. Now she alienably possesses it. She eats it; now it’s food in her small intestines. She inalienably possesses her gut; does she therefore (or at least also) inalienably possess its contents?

In your conlang are those nouns which are inalienably possessed by at least their original owners, also obligatorily possessed?

——

Do you have a class of non-possessible nouns, such as the sun or the sky?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 23:07

eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 20:42
So if alienable possession only needs a one-syllable adposition, inalienable possession should need nothing at all, I think; and, in many languages, it doesn’t need anything except to position the possessor next to the possession.
Typically the possessor of an inalienable is marked with no possession at all but if necessary the possessor is topicalized. If the context isn't clear and the possessor isn't topicalized there's a longer way to go about it but this occurs very rarely
eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 20:42
Can something be inalienably possessed at first, then later alienably possessed by a different possessor?
Ah! This is a great question. The use of inalienable nouns is far from constant and there are many situations where someone might use an inalienable noun as alienable especially in the last 2 categories. For instance if someone wished to showed distance from a friend, they might (probably unintentionally) use the alienable form of possession. Inalienable nouns act as an extension of the self and so when they aren't closely connected to the possessor there are cases where it may become inalienable. Take the following example using the alienable paradigm:
倅抷𢯏John𧶮𢬣
Cư pơ yõ John mờ tãnh
1s.FAM CAUS break 3s PREP arm
I broke John's arm
While this sentence is technically not wrong grammatically, the implication is odd for most situations. In this sentence we are stating that we broke an arm that John is alienably possessing so thus one that has some distance from his self. Maybe it's the arm of a toy he owns, maybe it's a prosthetic that he wasn't a fan of, it's hard to tell. So even though sentences like this are possible they occur very very rarely to the point of almost being non-existent.
eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 20:42
Do you have a class of non-possessible nouns, such as the sun or the sky?
Not per say but like many languages saying the equivalent of "my sun" or "my sky" sounds awkward in most situations.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by sangi39 » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 23:25

eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 20:42
Second, the only thing I think is not like most natlangs’ alienable-vs-inalienable opposition is:
Ordinarily it takes less morphological or lexical “weight” to express inalienable possession than to express alienable possession.
So if alienable possession only needs a one-syllable adposition, inalienable possession should need nothing at all, I think; and, in many languages, it doesn’t need anything except to position the possessor next to the possession.
IIRC, that's a tendency, rather than a universal feature of alienable vs. inalienable possession. While inalienable possession doesn't completely cover the situation in Hawai'ian, for example, alienable possession and inalienable possession are marked identically, save for the use of the prepositions o vs. a (from what I can remember, this is their only function as prepositions, but could be wrong).

While it is rarer to have this set up, and likewise one of the languages that inspired this, i.e. Mandarin, does use either the present or absence of the particle de to mark inalienable possession, strictly speaking there's nothing stopping All4Ɇn from using two prepositions instead. I would say it might be typologically "odd" in the region the language is spoken, but I honestly don't know how other Chamic languages or non-Chamic languages in the area surrounding the Ởnh·Vú-speaking population handle this sort of thing.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by eldin raigmore » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 04:51

Do you have a class of “obligatorily possessed” nouns like Nishnaabemwin* has?
Is it the same as your class of inalienably possessed nouns?

* https://www.amazon.com/Nishnaabemwin-Re ... 0802083897
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 05:54

sangi39 wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 23:25
I would say it might be typologically "odd" in the region the language is spoken, but I honestly don't know how other Chamic languages or non-Chamic languages in the area surrounding the Ởnh·Vú-speaking population handle this sort of thing.
Is there anything other than the use of it alongside the dative pronoun in rare constructions that you view as making it typologically odd? I try to keep Ởnh·Vú as realistic as I can
eldin raigmore wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 04:51
Do you have a class of “obligatorily possessed” nouns like Nishnaabemwin* has?
Is it the same as your class of inalienably possessed nouns?
There are no obligatorily possessed nouns but inalienable nouns are almost always inferably possessed by the nature of the words they refer to.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Omzinesý » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 09:24

All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 04 Jun 2018, 04:02

You call the morpheme a preposition but it seems to appear between the possessor and the possessed. Which of them forms the PP or is [N P N] a strict construction? In the third example the adposition seems to be dropped with the possessor. Should it be a postposition instead?

Nu mờ màinh·màinh
3s PREP toy break
His toy is broken (possessed noun as subject of the sentence)


Cư pơ yõ nu mờ màinh·màinh
1s.FAM CAUS break 3s PREP toy
I broke his toy (possessor and possessed as object of the sentence)



Cư pơ yõ (cơ nu) tãnh
1s.FAM CAUS break (PREP 3s) arm
I broke his arm (possessor and possessed as object of the sentence)




Nu mờ đã·đã tảo
3s PREP children grow
Her children have grown (as 穉ヌ refers not to one’s own children but to a group of children in general, we can assume she must be a teacher, nurse, etc.)
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 16:27

Omzinesý wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 09:24
You call the morpheme a preposition but it seems to appear between the possessor and the possessed. Which of them forms the PP or is [N P N] a strict construction?
I suppose it could be called a particle instead. Mờ always appears between the possessor and the possessed similar to 's in English. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by PP but if you mean past participle, there are no past participles as Ởnh·Vú is a tenseless language and relies on context to indicate time. What do you mean by [N P N] as well? Noun Preposition Noun?
Omzinesý wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 09:24
In the third example the adposition seems to be dropped with the possessor. Should it be a postposition instead?
Why would it be a postposition? Sorry I think I'm just a bit confused with your questions. I'm not the best when it comes to linguistics [:)]. That preposition is the dative preposition, it's not one indicating possession like mờ. It's only used to show possession in the rare case that that the possessor isn't topicalized and context doesn't clearly show who is inalienably possessing the object. You could literally translate that sentence as I broke to/for him the arm. Hopefully that answers some of your questions [:D]
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by sangi39 » Thu 07 Jun 2018, 14:13

All4Ɇn wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 05:54
sangi39 wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 23:25
I would say it might be typologically "odd" in the region the language is spoken, but I honestly don't know how other Chamic languages or non-Chamic languages in the area surrounding the Ởnh·Vú-speaking population handle this sort of thing.
Is there anything other than the use of it alongside the dative pronoun in rare constructions that you view as making it typologically odd? I try to keep Ởnh·Vú as realistic as I can
Oh, sorry, I might have misspoke. What I meant, basically, was that while Ởnh·Vú has a specific way of handling alienable vs. inalienable possession (with two different monosyllabic prepositions), I can't say whether any of the surrounding languages do the same thing, so can't say whether what Ởnh·Vú has is shared with any of those surrounding languages, or if it's unique in the area, i.e. whether any of the surrounding languages also use two different prepositions like Ởnh·Vú, presence or lack of a preposition as in Mandarin, or something else.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 10 Jun 2018, 07:27

sangi39 wrote:
Thu 07 Jun 2018, 14:13
Oh, sorry, I might have misspoke. What I meant, basically, was that while Ởnh·Vú has a specific way of handling alienable vs. inalienable possession (with two different monosyllabic prepositions), I can't say whether any of the surrounding languages do the same thing, so can't say whether what Ởnh·Vú has is shared with any of those surrounding languages, or if it's unique in the area, i.e. whether any of the surrounding languages also use two different prepositions like Ởnh·Vú, presence or lack of a preposition as in Mandarin, or something else.
I'm not entirely sure myself since there's not a lot of info that's easy to find on those languages. I figured it wasn't too much of a major leap though for it to be possible
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 12 Jun 2018, 11:34

Fractions & Multipliers
Fractions
Fractions are formed similar to how they are in Chinese and Japanese, which is almost the opposite of how they are formed in English. The denominator is indicated with a Sinic number which is then followed by 分 (Pun), the particle 𧶮 (Mờ), and then numerator which is indicated with a native Ởnh·Vú number. When talking about fractions where the numerator is 1, typically just the denominator followed by 分 (Pun) is used but 𧶮𠬠 (Mờ Sa) can also follow it to stress the amount. The only exception is for halves. 1/2 is expressed either as 姅分 (Sả·Pun) or more technically as 一半 (It Pừn) but never as 姅分𧶮𠬠 (Sả·Pun Mờ Sa) . Halves above that are formed simply by adding 半 (Pừn) to the Sinic version of the number wanted.
三分 (Sam·pun)- A third
三分𧶮𠬠 (Sam·pun mờ sa)- One third
四分𧶮𠀧 (Sì·pun mờ sỏ)- Three fourths
七分𧶮𦊚 (Tít·pun mờ pãt)- Four sevenths
五半 (Vó pừn)- Five halves

Multipliers
Multipliers occur as both nouns (which can be used adjectivally) and as verbs. When occurring as a noun, they are formed by taking the Sinic form of the number and following it with 倍 (Bứy). When occurring as a verb, they are formed by taking the Sinic form of the number and preceding & following it with 倍 (Bứy). The only exception is for double, which is expressed with the French loanword 䋎 (Đup) both when occurring as a noun and as a verb.
三倍 (Sam bứy)- Three times/triple/threefold
倍三倍 (Bứy sam bứy)- To triple/multiply three times
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by eldin raigmore » Tue 12 Jun 2018, 23:41

This too is interesting!
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Thu 14 Jun 2018, 01:28

eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 12 Jun 2018, 23:41
This too is interesting!
Thanks! Is there anything in particular you find interesting?
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Fri 15 Jun 2018, 22:03

Adverbs of Time
Ởnh·Vú has a large number of adverbs relating to time based around the following terms
年 (Nen)- Year
𣎃 (Van)- Month
旬 (Giuin)- Week
𣈜䄫 (U·Re)- Day
𤎜 (Gữ)- Morning
𣊿 (Sảm)- Afternoon/evening
𣎀 (Mãm)- Night
務 (Cóc)- Season
春 (Chún)- Spring
夏 (Ã)- Summer
秋 (Trú)- Autumn
冬 (Tuonh)- Winter

This/Next/Last
The three most basic adverbial prefixes relating to time are the following:
今 (Gim)- This
耒 (Húy)- Next
乃 (Ơm)- Last

Typically one simply adds these prefixes to a period of time in order to make their adverb. There are some exceptions though:
本月 (Pứn·nưt)- This month
𠉞 (Úy)- Today
𠉞𤎜 (Úy·gữ)- This morning
𠉞𣊿 (Úy·sảm)- This afternoon/this evening
𠉞𣎀 (Úy·mãm)- Tonight
耒𢆥 (Húy·tún)- Next year
𣈕欺 (Pa·khi)- Tomorrow
𩠘 (Yúy)- Last year
昨週 (Đac·chu)- Last week
𣋚浬 (Tũ·rí)- Yesterday
昨晚 (Đac·mứn)- Last afternoon/last evening/last night
昨春 (Đac·chún)- Last spring
昨夏 (Đac·ã)- Last summer
昨秋 (Đac·trú)- Last autumn
昨冬 (Đac·tuonh)- Last winter

Even for those formed irregularly, one can create the forms meaning "2... from now" and "2... ago" simply by prefixing 耒 (Húy) or 乃 (Ơm) to the "next" form and "last" form respectively.

Every/All
These two are a bit more complicated than the three above and are usually formed with the following prefixes
每 (Mưy)- Every
終 (Chunh)- All

Unlike the other 3, the Sinic form is always used before these forms and as a result the following changes take place in otherwise regular forms:
𣎃 (Van) -> 月 (Nưt)
旬 (Giuin) -> 週 (Chu)
𣈜䄫 (U·re) -> 日 (Nit)
𤎜 (Gữ) -> 朝 (Trơ)
𣊿 (Sảm) -> 晚 (Mứn)
𣎀 (Mãm) -> 夜 (Yà)
務 (Cóc) -> 季 (Cùy)

Additionally there are 3 completely irregular forms:
月ヌ (Nưt·nưt)- Every month/monthly
每曜 (Mưy·yè) or 日ヌ (Nit·nit)- Every day
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Mon 18 Jun 2018, 20:28

Third Grade Chữ Nôm
So here is the complete list of 256 characters that would be learned in 3rd grade in Ởnh·Vú speaking schools:
卑零〇萬䋎倍姅分半朝嘲明啐栌劸恕無𧴱𠳨芇兮买暏句章文𠳒宁義𧿫表咚英漢圖區化𨅸立讀徠羅經𢺺部量期𠯼計等級吵成功𢧚能夠可不同向題問便造定思覺悟理由參添加減業者儿士洘民群巫𥳉醫助博神陀隊軍將戰歌湄𩄎務雪𩄲𡼹湖河𥒥冰𤆷𤌋地𩇢圭鄉𤲌點𡗶世代命活古界𠳙𧆄藥店館圕港香灣臺院𧞄商農𠸥𢪱𦣰𣳮𣾹杜𢱏面𦙏𠦻𦢠昴呲機艚電話通𥇶科停𤋿哈吸𢯏合㾑閉𨔈練習𣷮𢏑筅球𩃳現來淶且另见𨖨㗂發門舉頭斂柁𠅳哥趂𧾌幸福𠺼𤎏焠熱冷枯漊廣安全必然踸𨓐著有直異炩情感禮刀筆黹衣服絲病以𧵆梗𥪝約𣋽後初內線𧷺食品多𣳪酒油荎至梄荳豆𦮲兎𤝞㺔象𤜯𤞻𤠲𣭃𦧘𢗼肉阮樓田
Spoiler:
卑Bé- Baby
零Lenh- 0
〇Lenh- 0
萬Vừn- 10,000
䋎Đup- Double
倍Bứy- Times
姅Sả- Half
分Pun- Separate
半Pừn- Half
朝Đrơ/Trơ/Chão- Morning
嘲Pưch- Bow
明Mưnh/Minh- Bright
啐Yủ- Dark
栌Ló- Phonetic Character
劸Sảr- Healthy
恕Punh- Forgive
無Mưo- Nothing
𧴱Xẽ- Owe
𠳨Tã- Ask
芇Ỹ- How
兮Yỡ- Not At All
买Xonh- Forever
暏Rí- Noon
句Cừo- Sentence
章Chanh- Chapter
文Mun- Literature
𠳒Pa- Word
宁Nơc- Word
義Vè- Meaning
𧿫Sảt- Mark
表Pớ- Table
咚Sap- Voice
英Ừnh- Hero
漢Hàn- Chinese
圖Đuo- Diagram
區Cứo- District
化Vã- Change
𨅸Đơnh- Stand
立Lip- Stand
讀Đuc- Read
徠Lac- Re-
羅La- Phonetic Character or A Given Name
經Bíp/Kenh- Classic
𢺺Vã- Split
部Bứ- Set
重Đrãnh/Đrónh/Đrònh/Đronh- Hot Water
量Lưnh/Lừnh- Measure
期Gư- Period
𠯼Khanh- Pass
計Kèy- Plan
等Tớnh- Rank
級Mày/Ghip- Joint or Rank
吵Yãt- Bad
成Genh- Succeed
功Cunh- Succeed
𢧚Púy- Should
能Nừy/Nơnh- Can
夠Cứ- Enough
可Cá- Able
不Pú- Un-
同Đunh- Same
向Hừnh- Face
題Đey- Question
問Mùn- Ask
便Bèn- Convenient
造Đáo- Create
定Đènh- Intend
思Sư- Think
覺Guc- Awake
悟Vò- Realize
理Lứ- Reason
由Yu- Cause
參Sam/Tứm/Rim- Three
添Tém- Add
加Ga- Plus
減Ghém- Subtract
業Nưp- Profession
者Chá- Person
儿Ra- Person
士Sí- Person
洘Sỡt- Person
民Min- People
群Gun- Group
巫Bi- Doctor
𥳉Gio- Phonetic Character
醫Y- Medicine
助Đrừ- Help
博Bac- Doctor
神Yảnh/Yãnh/Gin- God
陀Đa- Phonetic Character
隊Đừy- Team
軍Cun- Army
將Tưnh- General
戰Chèn- War
歌Ca- Song
湄Hứy- Rain
𩄎Khim- Rainy Season
務Cóc/Vò/Mừo- Season
雪Xơt- Snow
𩄲Hưr- Cloud
𡼹Gay- Jungle
湖Đão/Hư- Lake
河Ha- River
𥒥Ba- Stone
冰Pưnh- Ice
𤆷Yủ- Firewood
𤌋Ảp- Smoke
地Đì- Earth
𩇢Gio- Green/Blue
圭Sản- Countryside
鄉Hưnh- Hometown
𤲌Hứ- Field
點Tém- Dot
𡗶Lait- Sky
世Xè- Generation
代Đừy- Era
命Mènh- Life
活Vat- Life
古Qúo- Ancient
界Ghèy- Boundary
𠳙Dư- Substitute
𧆄Giõr- Medicine
藥Yưc- Medicine
店Tèm- Shop
館Cừn- Building
圕Đùon- Library
港Gúnh- Port
香Hưnh- Fragrant
灣Vàn- Bay
臺Đuy- Tower
院Yũin- Institution
𧞄Ꞗát- Temple
商Xanh- Trade
農Nuonh- Farming
𠸥Pãr- Tell
𢪱Lưy- Put
𦣰Đãnh- Lie
𣳮Ro- Wash
𣾹Bõ- Wash
杜Tủ- Pour
𢱏Tõnh- Beat
面Mèn- Face
𦙏Đã- Chest
𠦻Cáinh- Back
𦢠Ghi- Tooth
昴Đã- Blood
呲Vũ- Breath
機Cưy- Machine
艚Ghe- Boat
電Đèn- Electricity
話Vày- Speak
通Túnh- Call
𥇶Him- Movie
科Cá- Kind
停Đenh- Stop
𤋿Bơnh- Burn
哈Hớip/Sảm/Sa- Breathe
吸Yùp/Íp/Rip- Suck
𢯏Yõ- Break
合Hup- Fit
㾑Pit- Close
閉Péy- Close
𨔈Màinh- Play
練Lèn- Practice
習Gip- Learn
𣷮Lưy- Swim
𢏑Pả- Shoot
筅Sả- Arrow
球Gu- Ball
𩃳Mờch- Ball
現Hèn- Present
來Lưy- Come
淶Lay- Phonetic Character
且Sả/La- Escape
另Lủt- Avoid
见Ꞗưt- Appear
𨖨Sã- Leave
㗂Bã- Language
發Pưt- Depart
門Mưn- Gate
舉Cú- Rise
頭Đư/Tou- Head
斂Dữ- Find
柁Lè- Fall Into
𠅳Bit- Forget
哥Ca/Cã- Phonetic Character
趂Do- Jump
𧾌Đep- Hide
幸Ẽnh- Luck
福Puc- Luck
𠺼Cảo- Sad
𤎏Dừ- Hot
焠Pơn- Fever
熱Net- Heat
冷Làinh/Lénh- Cold
枯Bú- Dry
漊Đãm- Deep
廣Cứnh/Cánh- Wide
安An- Calm
全Giuin- Completely
必Pit- Certain
然Nen- So
踸Pão- Slow
𨓐Tữy- Strange
著Trù/Đruc- Famous
有Hú- Have
直Đưc- Straight
異Ỳ- Different
炩Sỏ- Obvious
情Đenh- Feeling
感Cúm- Sense
禮Léy- Gift
刀Đao/Tao- Sword
筆Bit- Brush
黹Sảy- Thread
衣Y- Clothes
服Buc- Clothes
絲Sư- Silk
病Bữnh- Sickness
以Nuinh/Ý- With
𧵆Gè- Near
梗Gã/Khã- Beside
𥪝Đrãm- In
約Ưc- Approximately
𣋽Sửm- Soon
後Hứ- Back
初Trú- Beginning
內Nừy- Inner
線Sèn- Line
𧷺Bõ- Round
食Rừ/Giưc- Food
品Bím- Article
多Ta- All
𣳪So- Milk
酒Ảc- Alcohol
油Yu- Oil
荎Ba- Banana
至Chí/Chì- Extreme
梄Rơ- Bean
荳Tảc- Bean
豆Đờ/Dờ- Bean
𦮲Á- Root
兎Tãy- Rabbit
𤝞Chỏ- Rat
㺔Lãnh- Elephant
象Giánh- Elephant
𤜯Ri- Tiger
𤞻Mõnh- Tiger
𤠲Sả- Monkey
𣭃Bu- Fur
𦧘Ra- Meat
𢗼Lo- Phonetic Character
肉Nuc- Meat
阮Nứn- Ruan or A Given Name
樓Lư/Lứ- Floor or A Given Name
田Đen- Field or A Given Name
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Fri 12 Oct 2018, 03:06, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 27 Jun 2018, 20:53

Traditional Romanization System
Prior to a major spelling reform, Ởnh·Vú's romanization system was far less consistent and essentially just applied the rules of Vietnamese spelling to fit the language. Here's an overview of the differences between the traditional romanization and the modern one.

Initial /p t k/
In previous stages of the language there existed 3 additional phonemes /pʰ tʰ kʰ/ that were spelled <ph th kh>. Although these phonemes were lost in Modern Ởnh·Vú, they were still indicated in romanization prior to the reform. In modern Ởnh·Vú the /ʰ/ has disappeared and in its place has added a tone sandhi to the following vowel. As a result, words written with initial <ph th kh> most often are written alongside tone marks not consistent with the tone actually pronounced

Initial /ɣ/
This consonant was not typically distinguished from /g/ in writing. Some texts spelled it as <gh> while later texts in the traditional romanization often spelled it instead as <kh>

Initial /j/
In the traditional romanization, this consonant was spelled as <i> before every letter except <e i> where it was written as <y>. In the modern romanization system, it’s always written as <y>

Initial /w/
In the traditional romanization the spelling of initial /w/ followed the following rules:
1. Use <o> before <a ă e>
2. Use <u> everywhere else
3. /wi wiw/ are written <uy uyu>
In the newer system initial /w/ is always spelled as <v> and /wi wiw/ are spelled simply as <vi vio>

Final /ŋ/
There were 3 rules for the spelling of final /ŋ/:
1. Final /ŋ/ is written <ng> except after <i> where it’s <nh>
2. /jŋ/ is written <nh>
3. /eŋ ejŋ awŋ oŋ/ are irregularly <enh einh ong ông>
In the newer system <nh> is used in all cases for /ŋ/, /jŋ/ is spelled as <inh>, and /awŋ oŋ/ are simply <aonh onh>

Final /c̚/ and /k̚/
/c̚ k̚/ are always written <ch c> but had several irregularities when it came to their vowels:
1. /ac̚ ajc̚ / are written as <ăch ach>
2. /uc̚ ujc̚/ are written as <uoch uch>
2. /awc̚ oc̚ aok̚ ok̚/ are written <och ôch oc ôc>
In the reformed romanization these irregularities are removed

Final /j/
Traditionally there were the following rules regarding the spelling of final /j/:
1. Use <y> after <a e> except before a consonant where it’s written as <i>
2. Not written before <nh> and in <ach uch>
3. Use <i> everywhere else
In the newer system <y> is always used except before a consonant where it is always written <i>

Final /w/
There were 3 rules for the spelling of final /w/:
1. Use <u> after <i ơ ư y>
2. Use <o> after <e>
3. Both <u o> are acceptable after <a> but <u> is definitely more common
In the modern script, only <o> is used except after <ơ> where it remains <u>

Medial /i/
The original alphabet had very complicated and inconsistent rules concerning the difference between medial i and y, mostly consistent with their usage in Vietnamese. Typically the rules were as follows:
1. In one lettered Sinic words use <y>
2. After <h k l m t> not followed by a letter in Sinic syllables use <y>
3. After <n s v> not followed by a letter in proper nouns either is acceptable
4. After a consonant in names either is acceptable
5. Everywhere else use <i>
The old rules have been replaced with a single rule:
1. Generally medial /i/ is written with <i> unless it’s a one lettered word in which case <y> is used instead

Accent Marks
In the old romanization there were several complicated rules for figuring out which letter to put an accent mark on:
1. If there’s a final consonant, the accent mark goes on the final full vowel before the consonant
2. If there’s not a final consonant, the accent mark goes on the second to last vowel
3. If the syllable begins with /j w/ and ends in a non-diphthong vowel, the accent mark goes on the full vowel
4. If there’s a dipthong featuring the vowels <ă ô ơ ư>, the accent mark always goes on that letter
5. For <quo>, the accent mark always goes on the <o>
The newer system is much easier:
1. The accent mark is always placed on the non-glided vowel in the syllable
2. In the diphthong <uo> the accent is placed on the <u>

Sample Words:
白血病 Bàc·Oet·Bững (Leukemia) -> Bàc·Vet·Bữnh
空氣 Khung·Kỹ (Air) -> Cúnh·Kĩ
交錯 Gau·Thac (Intersect) -> Gao·Tác
瑞士 Giùi·Sý (Switzerland) -> Giùy·Sí
芇 Ĩ (How) -> Ỹ
漫 Mảnh (Brine) -> Mảinh
無利 Mưu·Lỳ (Interest Free) -> Mưo·Lì
外國 Oày·Quôc (Foreign Country) -> Vày·Quoc
副總統 Phù·Túng·Thuồng (Vice President) -> Pũ·Túnh·Tũonh
𡨺ヌ黨 Pỉu·Pỉu·Tàng (Conservative Party) -> Pỉo·Pỉo·Tành
傾向 Quống·Hừng (Inclination) -> Qúonh·Hừnh
𤾓 Rẵch (Hundred) -> Rãch
𩸲 Sõng (Jellyfish) -> Sãonh
𡘯𠊛 Sổng·Ởng (Adult) -> Sỏnh·Ởnh
天麩羅 Then·Phưo·La (Tempura) -> Tén·Pứo·La
參議院 Thưm·Oè·Iuĩn (Senate) -> Tứm·Vè·Yũin
蠆 Uáut (Dragonfly Nymph) -> Váot
胷 Uỷu (Hip) -> Vỉo
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Thu 04 Oct 2018, 07:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 03 Jul 2018, 23:22

I don't know how it took me this long to realize it, but I've been posting about this language for over a year somehow! I'm still so interested in it that it feels like I've been working on it for nowhere near as long as that [:)] . Here's a little post on a orthographic topic as a bonus:


Bõ is a very diverse word that can be written with a number of different Hanzi based on the situation, all of which have the general meaning of "round object". Below are explanations for all of the different uses and ways to write Bõ. There are other unrelated words with ohs are pronunciation that aren't covered in this post.

𣛤
When written using this character, Bõ is the generic Ởnh·Vú word for fruit. Additionally various fruits and vegetables use this word in their names such as 椳𣛤 (Giã·bõ: guava) and 𡀲𣛤 (Hanh·bõ: black pepper)

𠨡
When written using this character, Bõ is one of the words for egg. The main word for egg is written with the same character but is pronounced instead as Sủ. The "Bõ" reading is used as a suffix after the name of an animal to indicate the egg belongs to the animal e.g: 鵸𠨡 (Mánh·bõ: chicken egg), 龍𠨡 (Lưonh·bõ: dragon egg)

𨋣
When written using this character, Bõ is the run-of-the-mill Ởnh·Vú word for wheel


When written using this character, Bõ is one of Ởnh·Vú's words for bowl. Unlike the others, this word is a semi-loanword from French and refers mostly to Western style bowls

𧷺
This character is by far the most diverse of the all the various spellings. With this Hanzi, Bõ is the Ởnh·Vú counter used for round objects. Not coincidentally, all words pronounced Bõ can take this as their counter. In addition to this usage, this character can also be used as a prefix used to show that the following noun is round in someway:
𧷺𡎜 (Bõ·mo)- Mushroom (round mushroom)
𧷺𣘃 (Bõ·pún)- Cabbage (round plant)
𧷺腓兕 (Bõ·ꞗơ·tỉ)- Calf (round calf)
𧷺肉 (Bõ·nuc)- Meatball (round meat)
𧷺藥 (Bõ·yưc)- Pill (round medicine)
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by All4Ɇn » Sat 14 Jul 2018, 04:31

巴啤塔 (Ba·bẽr·táp) (The Tower Of Babel)
As is tradition, I have translated the Tower of Babel into Ởnh·Vú. I've based this translation on the ones given for Chinese, Vietnamese, and Japanese on Omniglot.

一. 卞於、𤲂𡗶𠊛固一種咚唄一種言語。
Lo đi, ã·lait·ởnh a it chónh sap nanh it chónh vưn·vú.
ADV PART below-sky-person have one CLASS voice CONJ one CLASS language
And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

二. 𨖨在東𧶮時、戶﨤𠬠𤲌平原於蚩囻、耒𡎥於妬。
Sã mơnh nò mờ sưy, ghep tỡr sa hứ bành·nưn đi Xi·Nãr, húy đõc đi đĩ.

leave PREP east PREP time 3p come.upon one CLASS plain PREP Shinar, CONJ live PREP DEM.ADV
And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

三. 戶呐朱众:「吏、咳爫吧全𤓢𤮄」。戶得卞𤮄於𥒥穌𧶮𠳙、仍得𥑂於嚧壼𧶮𠳙。
Ghep ha cơ đrí: “mãy, ich bưt đãn giuin·khãnh ỉt”. Ghep mat lo ỉt đi ba·to mờ dư, sơnh mat chãy đi lơ·sunh mờ dư.

3p say PREP REFL come IMP make PART complete-bake brick | 3p get ADV brick PREP stone PREP replacement CONJ get tar PREP mortar PREP replacement
And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar.

四. 飫𠬠回於戶呐:「吏、咳建設城都唄𦤾𠌨𡗶𧶮塔朱众於在爫名、仍固㐱洒捉兜ヌ𨕭𡐙𧶮𩈘」。
Ꞗẽ sa vi đi ghep ha: “mãy, ich cừn·xet genh·tuo nanh tơr pá lait mờ táp cơ đrí đi·mơnh bưt menh, sơnh a hưc chả áo lơnh·lơnh ả Lơn mờ bò.”

more one CLASS PART 3p say come IMP build city CONJ reach PREP heaven PREP tower PREP REFL PREP make reputation CONJ fear disperse PREP place-place PREP earth PREP face
And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

五. 耶呼婆𨑜卞於在䀡城都唄𠊛ヌ𧶮𡥵當建設𧶮塔。
Ge·ho·ꞗa gỡ lo đi·mơnh bũ genh·tuo nanh ởnh·ởnh mờ ãc tanh cừn·xet mờ táp.

Jehovah fall ADV PREP see city CONJ person-person PREP child keep.on build PREP tower
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

六. 耶呼婆呐:「呢、戶固只一種人民、唄一切一種言語、仍戶起役耒;戶爫实𧶮物𤴓庄固空实飫被抷拫𧶮芇。
Ge·ho·ꞗa ha: “ní, ghep a sỏ it chónh nin·min, nanh it·tẽy it chónh vưn·vú, sơnh ghep kí vữ húy; ghep bưt bừ mờ mut dõc bũ a ỏ bừ ꞗẽ dram pơ luc mờ ỹ.

Jehovah say behold 3p have just 1 CLASS people CONJ all 1 CLASS language CONJ 3p start work already 3p do maybe PREP thing TOP NEG have NEG maybe more PASS CAUS stop PREP how
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

七. 吏、咳𨑜耒抷𡚃戶𧶮言語以戶庄𦖑空众𧶮言語」。
Mãy, ich gỡ húy pơ vĩr ghep mờ vưn·vú nuinh ghep bũ hớ ỏ đrí mờ vưn·vú”.

Come IMP fall CONJ CAUS confuse they PREP language CONJ they NEG hear NEG REFL PREP language
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

八. 𤳄耶呼婆抷洒𠊛ヌ在妬捉兜ヌ𨕭𡐙𧶮𩈘、耒戶拫建設城都。
Cúy Ge·ho·ꞗa pơ chả ởnh·ởnh mơnh đĩ áo lơnh·lơnh ả Lơn mờ bò, húy ghep luc cừn·xet genh·tuo.

CONJ Jehovah CAUS scatter person-person PREP DEM.ADV PREP place-place PREP earth PREP face CONJ 3p stop build city
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

九. 城都囉巴啤𧶮所以罖卞爲妬罖耶呼婆抷𡚃𤲂𡗶𠊛𧶮言語𧶮兜、仍罖在妬耶呼婆抷洒𠊛ヌ捉兜ヌ𨕭𡐙𧶮𩈘𧶮兜。
Genh·tuo éo Ba·bẽr mờ sú·ý nãnh lo cao đĩ nãnh Ge·ho·ꞗa pơ vĩr ã·lait·ởnh mờ vưn·vú mờ lơnh, sơnh nãnh mơnh đĩ Ge·ho·ꞗa pơ chả ởnh·ởnh áo lơnh·lơnh ả Lơn mờ bò mờ lơnh.

city call Babel PREP reason be ADV CONJ DEM.ADV be Jehovah CAUS confuse below-sky-person PREP language PREP place CONJ be PREP DEM.ADV Jehovah CAUS scatter person-person PREP place-place PREP earth PREP face PREP place
Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Tue 11 Sep 2018, 19:34, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Ởnh·Vú- Chamic Language

Post by Khemehekis » Mon 16 Jul 2018, 04:02

Congratulatuons, your Ởnh·Vú has finally undergone one of its conlang rites of passage -- a Babel Text.

Speaking of Rites of Passage, how about a list of age/gender terms for Ởnh·Vú?

From the LCV:
Spoiler:
fetus
newborn
baby
toddler
child
girl (female child)
boy (male child)
kid (children and teens inclusive)
teen-ager, teen, adolescent
girl (young woman)
boy (young man)
youth (young people collectively)
twentysomething
thirtysomething
adult
woman
man
married woman
married man
senior, senior citizen, elder
corpse
lady
guy, fellow
EDIT: Perhaps getting Jankoed is a rite of passage for a conlang, too.
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 57,500 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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