Atlas: new auxlang

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Nachtuil
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Nachtuil » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 20:51

alynnidalar wrote:There's numbers between 1 and 2, you know--I assume Xing is asking if something like "1.5" takes the singular or plural.
Ah that makes sense! English: 1.5 apples. French: 1.5 apple (but in French)
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 20:52

There was a TC about that.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by GamerGeek » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 20:52

alynnidalar wrote:There's numbers between 1 and 2, you know--I assume Xing is asking if something like "1.5" takes the singular or plural.
Oh ye
I remember ranting about >= and <= for non-variable integers.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by GamerGeek » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 20:56

What about the plurality of null?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 22:05

alynnidalar wrote:How would "He saw that she was killing the cat." be translated, then? The same way, given that it's still in the past relative to the frame of reference of the speaker?
Ze viset, ze wazat al-nekoa - so yes, the same way.
Another question would be how to handle the pluperfect. (He saw that she arrived vs He saw that she had arrived.)
Ze viset, ze viket / ze viset, ze viket vo

So basically you need to introduce "vo" ("before") in order to mark that the second action is happening before the other.
Setting aside the optional dual for a moment, does the plural indicate 'more than one' or 'two or more'? (This can be a somewhat tricky question...)
Dual is optional, so plural is +1.
There's numbers between 1 and 2, you know--I assume Xing is asking if something like "1.5" takes the singular or plural.
I would say plural, because it is more than 1.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Xing » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 22:11

Rodiniye wrote:
Setting aside the optional dual for a moment, does the plural indicate 'more than one' or 'two or more'? (This can be a somewhat tricky question...)
Dual is optional, so plural is +1.
There's numbers between 1 and 2, you know--I assume Xing is asking if something like "1.5" takes the singular or plural.
I would say plural, because it is more than 1.
Suppose I want to use the dual. Would it then be:

1 day – singular
1,5 days – plural (or dual??)
2 days – dual
2,5 days – plural (or dual??)

Can the dual be used only where there's exactly two discrete entities of something?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Nachtuil » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 22:11

Rodiniye wrote:
There's numbers between 1 and 2, you know--I assume Xing is asking if something like "1.5" takes the singular or plural.
I would say plural, because it is more than 1.
So 1.5 is marked the same way 3 is and not 2?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 22:45

Nachtuil wrote:
Rodiniye wrote:
There's numbers between 1 and 2, you know--I assume Xing is asking if something like "1.5" takes the singular or plural.
I would say plural, because it is more than 1.
So 1.5 is marked the same way 3 is and not 2?
Dual is optional, so my view is 1.5 could be dual or plural.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 10 Aug 2017, 05:19

Rodiniye wrote:
Nachtuil wrote:
Rodiniye wrote:
There's numbers between 1 and 2, you know--I assume Xing is asking if something like "1.5" takes the singular or plural.
I would say plural, because it is more than 1.
So 1.5 is marked the same way 3 is and not 2?
Dual is optional, so my view is 1.5 could be dual or plural.
That certainly depends on the language, and the spoken versions of those improper fractions.

Sometimes in my :con: Rozwi, I have said 1 hour<SG> and a half<SG>.
Or 2 hours<DU> and a half<SG>.

I might have based this on French (Cf. il est une heure et demie)
It might also have been :lat:. For the few :lat: nouns with /sesqui/ prefixed, the nouns AFAICT are treated like singulars (Cf. sescuplum, sesquiannus, sesquihora, sesquidies, sesquimodius). And I used to enjoy looking up little 'families' of thematically- or conceptually-related words like these way back in High School.
I cannot remember which influenced, or maybe both (?)
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Frislander » Tue 15 Aug 2017, 21:56

elemtilas wrote:If anything, the world-wide deaf community is the ideal field for an auxlanger to work his magic. There is actually a real need for an international auxiliary language there. To be fair, Atlas has no chance of ever becoming the or even a spoken IAL. As an intellectual exercise, as a creative exercise, all well and good. As an exercise in international politics, it has no hope. Putting that energy into a SIAL, now that would raise the art of auxlangery out of the 19th century quagmire it's been stuck in since the early 20th century! Pulling this off would definitely put the hard working auxlanger on the map.
Even better, perhaps the "world language" could be a sign language for all people (excluding the blind), even for hearing people; it's practically impossible to be parochial about choices with vocabulary and to a lesser extent grammar, and it'd be equally hard for all hearing people to learn!
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by alynnidalar » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 19:51

Frislander wrote:it's practically impossible to be parochial about choices with vocabulary
How so?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Frislander » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 20:29

alynnidalar wrote:
Frislander wrote:it's practically impossible to be parochial about choices with vocabulary
How so?
Well, at least from the perspective of the hearing population, since the vast majority of hearing people don't know a sign-language, though I guess you could rely on one sign language more heavily, (most probably ASL), which would lead to that kind of thing for deaf people.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by elemtilas » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 23:05

Frislander wrote:
elemtilas wrote:If anything, the world-wide deaf community is the ideal field for an auxlanger to work his magic. There is actually a real need for an international auxiliary language there. To be fair, Atlas has no chance of ever becoming the or even a spoken IAL. As an intellectual exercise, as a creative exercise, all well and good. As an exercise in international politics, it has no hope. Putting that energy into a SIAL, now that would raise the art of auxlangery out of the 19th century quagmire it's been stuck in since the early 20th century! Pulling this off would definitely put the hard working auxlanger on the map.
Even better, perhaps the "world language" could be a sign language for all people (excluding the blind), even for hearing people; it's practically impossible to be parochial about choices with vocabulary and to a lesser extent grammar, and it'd be equally hard for all hearing people to learn!
I'm hoping that was an invisible tongue-in-cheek smiley I saw there!

It would rather defeat the purpose of an IAL to actually make communication not only more difficult and impractical, but also to handicap its users needlessly by forcing them to use an unnatural medium.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Keenir » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 03:43

Rodiniye wrote:I admit it could be easier. Everything could be easier. Just do one pronoun, 3 verbs and 6 nouns and you might be able to communicate. Or even use pictures, why bother with grammar? But for me, an auxlang should be a common tool for effective communication, not only communication.

And no, it is not about saying "hey! my auxlang is very easy!", you have the grammar available and you can compare it to others. Everything you need to be fluent is in 20 pages, including index and practice. No way Chinese is easier than Atlas. The basics basics maybe yes (no tense for instance, no number). But then, if you look into it deeply... things change a bit. Then you adding "le" to verbs, "hui", "zai" and all the possibilities, and all the constructions, and all of the sudden verbs are not that easy anymore.
except you make it harder than you perhaps considered:
Rodiniye wrote: 4 - Preposition in Atlas play a key role in word construction. In Atlas you create the vocabulary with only 500ish roots and prepositions, so the meaning of the prepositions needs to be clear, otherwise the words meanings would not be intuitive.
but if the Atlas-users in Maryland create vocabulary...that doesn't mean it'll be understandable to Atlas-speakers in Moscow. the words might be transparent in what Atlas had for their original meaning...but once you create vocabulary, you also (then or later on) give it new roles -- carpenters can nail things with a screwdriver, but anyone can listen to the Carpenters and drink a screwdriver.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Frislander » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 12:56

elemtilas wrote:
Frislander wrote:
elemtilas wrote:If anything, the world-wide deaf community is the ideal field for an auxlanger to work his magic. There is actually a real need for an international auxiliary language there. To be fair, Atlas has no chance of ever becoming the or even a spoken IAL. As an intellectual exercise, as a creative exercise, all well and good. As an exercise in international politics, it has no hope. Putting that energy into a SIAL, now that would raise the art of auxlangery out of the 19th century quagmire it's been stuck in since the early 20th century! Pulling this off would definitely put the hard working auxlanger on the map.
Even better, perhaps the "world language" could be a sign language for all people (excluding the blind), even for hearing people; it's practically impossible to be parochial about choices with vocabulary and to a lesser extent grammar, and it'd be equally hard for all hearing people to learn!
I'm hoping that was an invisible tongue-in-cheek smiley I saw there!

It would rather defeat the purpose of an IAL to actually make communication not only more difficult and impractical, but also to handicap its users needlessly by forcing them to use an unnatural medium.
I disagree with that characterisation of sign language, but yeah, you still have the implementation problem (arguably the most challenging/impossible part of the whole IAL enterprise).
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » Fri 25 Aug 2017, 23:07

Atlas growing strong and many people helping, so I am extremely grateful.

Latest and last upgrade has been a recent grammar upgrade which made the language easier:
- given structures now to help recognize words and part of speech.
- simplified verbs.
- no dual number any longer.
- no verb prefixes any longer.
...

And all roots now are 3 letters long.

More information here:

http://atlas-language.blogspot.com.es/2 ... pdate.html

I think it has taken Atlas to where it should be, now it is even easier and more logical.

Hope you like it [:)]
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Nachtuil » Sat 26 Aug 2017, 00:14

Rodiniye wrote: - no dual number any longer.

What made you change your mind on having this as optional and instead just getting rid of the dual?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Keenir » Sat 26 Aug 2017, 21:20

Rodiniye wrote:- no verb prefixes any longer.

And all roots now are 3 letters long.

I think it has taken Atlas to where it should be, now it is even easier and more logical.
if "stop" is now "sop"...then what has "sop" become? (yes, sop is a real word)

and are there both suffixes and prefixes? if so, how do we determine where the root/stem begins and ends?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » Sat 26 Aug 2017, 22:29

Nachtuil wrote:
Rodiniye wrote: - no dual number any longer.

What made you change your mind on having this as optional and instead just getting rid of the dual?
Keenir wrote:
Rodiniye wrote:- no verb prefixes any longer.

And all roots now are 3 letters long.

I think it has taken Atlas to where it should be, now it is even easier and more logical.
if "stop" is now "sop"...then what has "sop" become? (yes, sop is a real word)

and are there both suffixes and prefixes? if so, how do we determine where the root/stem begins and ends?
1)
Simplification basically.

2) There are no prefixes. You always start counting from the left, count 3. All roots are 3 letters long for adjectives, nouns, adverbs and verbs. The rest beyond the 3 (or multiples of 3) are suffixes.

"sop" comes from "stop" because all roots now are 3 letters, following 3 patterns: CVC, VCC, VVC. So "stop" was not usable any longer and "sop" was free.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Khemehekis » Sun 27 Aug 2017, 03:40

Rodiniye, check your PM box. I've replied to you in another thread.
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