Atlas: new auxlang

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Rodiniye
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Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » Sat 24 Jun 2017, 19:39

Hi everyone,

Some of you might already know about me. I presented a few days ago a conlang called "Rodinian", which I/we decided was better off as an artlang than as an auxlang.

I have taken notes and learnt from all my mistakes, and I think I have built now a real auxlang. Main highlights:

- Vocabulary formed with only above 500 roots, from which all other words are formed.
- Vocabulary following this formula: 10 most spoken languages in the world (L1+L2) and, apart from these, 2 most spoken languages in every continent, as long as they were spoken by at least 1% of the World population.
- Easy phonetics. Vowels a,e,i,o,u and 18 consonants with no difficult sounds. Use of romanic alphabet with no accents.
- Easy/simplified grammar: no declensions, no exceptions at all. Easy verbs (only 2 morphemes possible).
- Gender neutral, although specifying gender is possible.
- Use of grammar particles make complex sentences very easy to use.

The grammar book is only 20 pages long, compared to the 100 pages of Rodinian, so as you can see, things are simplified.

You will find more information here (including grammar book and dicitonary)

http://atlas-language.blogspot.com.es/

I hope you like it, and I will be waiting for your comments and thoughts on this.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Reyzadren » Sun 25 Jun 2017, 03:05

I'm just curious. What is your goal/purpose of this auxlang? (audience?)

Before I give more details about my opinion, I shall just say that I do not support this auxlang.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by GamerGeek » Sun 25 Jun 2017, 03:22

  • /j/ and /z/ are missing
  • /v/ is more common than /w/
  • Affricates are hard to distinguish from their fricitive conterparts
  • /ʒ/ and /f/ can more intuitively be <j> and <f> respectively
  • Are there any phonotactical rules, or is it just freeform?
  • Your system of weak and strong vowels is intriguing, however the laxing of weak vowels may be controvercial
  • Despite saying your language has no (mandatory) gender, it appears to have such. (even if untraditional)
  • Dual number is uncommon as it often merges with plural
  • "Fourth Person" is typically considered a superplural 3rd person.
  • Optional morphemes are just asking to be diachronically washed away
  • An-other approach to locative prepositions is using the tense system, but this is typically better for philosophical languages
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Axiem » Sun 25 Jun 2017, 03:26

Reyzadren wrote:I'm just curious. What is your goal/purpose of this auxlang? (audience?)
I second this. Being an auxlang instead of an artlang, it raises the question: what problem is this language trying to solve?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by lsd » Sun 25 Jun 2017, 07:13

Auxlangs are centered on the function of communication of language, when artlangs are on exoticism...
This does not solve anything, but explains the choices made there...
They should not be judged by their "goal", as the artlangs do not owe either... as no conlang should...
By nature conlangs are useless...
Last edited by lsd on Sun 25 Jun 2017, 21:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Nachtuil » Sun 25 Jun 2017, 07:29

GamerGeek wrote:
  • /v/ is more common than /w/
Did you mean /j/ is more common than /w/ ?


Rodiniye:

My mind is pathetically conditioned to seeing phonologies presented in a certain way:
/m n/ <m n>
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k g>
/tʃ dz/ <c z>
/f s ʃ ʒ/ <v s x q>
/l r w/ <l r w>

The only thing I find odd about the phonology is dz being there instead of /z/ or /dʒ/. /j/ would be expected too if the more common sounds are desired but stranger things happen. It does depend what your goals are with this language of course as unique may be more important to you than predictable and easy.

I am not too fussy myself as what you've done here is more approachable than your other language of which this one seems heavily influenced(?). I will try to read the whole thing when I can. I will say I do like the definite, partitive and general articles. Note there is an important distinction between definiteness and specificity which produces four possible outcomes, which most languages get along fine without fussing over. Unspecific can be definite, and indefinite specific.

I agree with GamerGeek very much that the optional morphenes don't tend to last. I would either go full in on the dual number and noun gender suffixes or leave them out.

I find words like "arzt" almost impossible to pronounce due to the mixed voicing that is expected. That is supposed to be /ardzt/ if I am correct. In German, that cluster would be entirely unvoiced which makes it easy: /artst/. You may want to specify rules for voicing assimilation in clusters. I would recommend you consider leaving your fricatives unvoiced normally and in clusters with unvoiced consonants and voiced inbetween vowels or in clusters with voiced consonants.

So if you want the points of articulation of f~v, s~z, ʃ~ʒ have the /f s ʃ/ be the normal forms and the voiced versions /v z ʒ/ exist in between vowels.
Example where left is phonemes and right is actual pronunciation:
/sas/ [sas]
/sasi/ [sazi]
/sasti/ [sasti]
/sasdi/ [sazdi]
You may want your affricates to follow this rule too or be, so have /ts~dz/ /tʃ~dʒ/
(forgiveness if I am not using the tilde mark in a conventional way. It is my own habit which I keep meaning to check on. I mean to imply the phonemes are have two realisations via allophony and are not in free variation).
Ironically, this rule would make the language easier to pronounce and yet adds complexity.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » Sun 25 Jun 2017, 09:53

Reyzadren wrote:I'm just curious. What is your goal/purpose of this auxlang? (audience?)

Before I give more details about my opinion, I shall just say that I do not support this auxlang.
Being an auxlang for international communication [:)]

I know English is currently there and used as a lingua franca, but some people think that the privilege of being a lingua franca should not be given to a natural language, but to a constructed language so that a specific nation (or group of) do not have advantages in international relations.

Apart from that, take into account that the lingua franca used changes from time to time. It is English now, was French in the past, probably will be Chinese or another one in the future.
GamerGeek wrote:
  • /j/ and /z/ are missing
  • /v/ is more common than /w/
  • Affricates are hard to distinguish from their fricitive conterparts
  • /ʒ/ and /f/ can more intuitively be <j> and <f> respectively
  • Are there any phonotactical rules, or is it just freeform?
  • Your system of weak and strong vowels is intriguing, however the laxing of weak vowels may be controvercial
  • Despite saying your language has no (mandatory) gender, it appears to have such. (even if untraditional)
  • Dual number is uncommon as it often merges with plural
  • "Fourth Person" is typically considered a superplural 3rd person.
  • Optional morphemes are just asking to be diachronically washed away
  • An-other approach to locative prepositions is using the tense system, but this is typically better for philosophical languages
There is some freedom for phonological variation, which would be developed by speakers. Initially only /s/ is present, but I suppose that /z/ will be found or used by some speakers and it is perfectly normal. So the initial rules are in the grammar book, but you might expect some variation from that by some speakers.

Strong and weak vowels concept is used by some languages, as mine (Spanish).

I understand that optional morphemes might disappear but time will tell. I think having the gender mark as an optional morpheme is extremely useful and I cannot see it disappearing (although it will be far less used than in languages using gender as a norm).

"q" and "v" instead of "j" and "f" is purely for esthetical reasons. A language needs to have its own personality. Apart from that, I consider "v" to be much easier to write than "f".
Nachtuil wrote: Post here
Very interesting post, however as I said in this same reply, I offer some freedom for learners and speakers and see how the phonology will develop. I am expecting for instance "s" to become /z/ in some words and by some speakers, or some of the changes you mentioned, but rather than being set in paper or as a rule, I will let that evolve with the language. I think it is easier that way.

As for the similarities with Rodinian, there are some, but the phylosophy is very different. Rodinian had 100 pages for its grammar and this one only around 20, and with some practice. Atlas has taken all the garbage out, included some new features and keeping only what was necessary.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Reyzadren » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 00:25

Rodiniye wrote:
Reyzadren wrote:I'm just curious. What is your goal/purpose of this auxlang? (audience?)

Before I give more details about my opinion, I shall just say that I do not support this auxlang.
Being an auxlang for international communication [:)]

I know English is currently there and used as a lingua franca, but some people think that the privilege of being a lingua franca should not be given to a natural language, but to a constructed language so that a specific nation (or group of) do not have advantages in international relations.

Apart from that, take into account that the lingua franca used changes from time to time. It is English now, was French in the past, probably will be Chinese or another one in the future.
Well, I really don't care if natural languages or constructed languages are chosen as international languages. However, I don't agree with that statement because there is a flaw: There will be a country that chooses that constructed language as their official language, then they will have the advantage, and hence you are back to the same problem. If your true goal is to remove unfair advantages for international communication, then unfortunately those advantages will soon re-appear :/

Btw, I don't support this auxlang because it seems difficult (with several pointless features as Rodinian), and I like easy things. No hard feelings :)
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 09:29

Reyzadren wrote: Well, I really don't care if natural languages or constructed languages are chosen as international languages. However, I don't agree with that statement because there is a flaw: There will be a country that chooses that constructed language as their official language, then they will have the advantage, and hence you are back to the same problem. If your true goal is to remove unfair advantages for international communication, then unfortunately those advantages will soon re-appear :/

Btw, I don't support this auxlang because it seems difficult (with several pointless features as Rodinian), and I like easy things. No hard feelings :)
Have you had a look at its grammar? [O.O] It is extremely easy. 20 pages with a full grammar and some practice too.

All unnecessary things have been removed.

There is no complex verb forms, far less morphemes for verbs (only a few), still no declensions, zero exceptions...

But even more, infitinives/participles have been removed. Relatives are extremely simplified through the use of particles, phonetics are way simplified too, no accented lenters... only a handful personal pronouns... only just above 500 roots! I think a big improvement has been made.

I understood the difficulty behind Rodinian, but Atlas? grammar could not be much more simplified really [:)]
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by elemtilas » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 11:53

lsd wrote:Auxlangs are centered on the function of communication of language, when artlangs are on exoticism...
I'm not sure what you mean by "communication of language" or "exoticism" here. I've encountered many artlangs that are nothing like "exotic". (.i., no more "exotic" than English)

Auxlangs are designed primarily for ease of communication between people who do not share a common language; secondarily for communication between people in general and regardless of an already shared language.
This does not solve anything, but explains the choices made there...
They should not be judged by their "goal", as the artlangs do not owe either... as no conlang should...
On the contrary, an auxlang must be judged (and rather severely at that) by the stated goal. If an auxlang can not facilitate ease of communication between a monoglot Swahili speaker and a monoglot French speaker, then it is of no use whatsoever.

Sorry, but the rest of your statement kind of ... wanders off into incomprehensibility. Care to restate in an auxlang (other than English)? ;)
By nature conlangs are useless...
Yep.

Artlangs, at least, were never intended to have a practical use. Engelangs only have, by design, a limited utility.

In contrast, auxlangs are designed to be useful. If they're not, then they deserve constructive criticism in large quantities.

Think of an artlang as one of those fancily engraved sterling silver Masonic trowels with beautifully turned ebony handle. It's not intended for actual use, though its shape is basically the same as an ordinary mason's trowel of steel you can buy at your local hardware shop.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by lsd » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 16:55

elemtilas wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "communication of language"
I can try language communication fonction...
I've encountered many artlangs that are nothing like "exotic". (.i., no more "exotic" than English)
Apart from the relex, all are...
An auxlang must be judged (and rather severely at that) by the stated goal. If an auxlang can not facilitate ease of communication between a monoglot Swahili speaker and a monoglot French speaker
No constructed language has ever fulfilled this role, the criteria examined are as illusory as the putative results ...
Sorry, but the rest of your statement kind of ... wanders off into incomprehensibility. Care to restate in an auxlang
The true auxiliary languages have none of these characteristics, except to be the language of the dominant ...
auxlangs are designed to be useful. If they're not, then they deserve constructive criticism in large quantities.
Thus for a constructed language, whatever the why, it is the possibility of functioning which is the only interest ... (if necessary, classify it in artlang ...)
If this is the case, it would make a good auxlang (if chosen)...
(The artlangs are the only languages of the XXI to have crossed the border barrier...)
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by elemtilas » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 17:44

lsd wrote:
elemtilas wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "communication of language"
I can try language communication fonction...
What I'm getting at is what you mean by "communication of language". A language can be communicated by voice or writing or other symbolism, by manual signs, etc.
I've encountered many artlangs that are nothing like "exotic". (.i., no more "exotic" than English)
Apart from the relex, all are...
Sure. Any relex is only as exotic as its base language.
An auxlang must be judged (and rather severely at that) by the stated goal. If an auxlang can not facilitate ease of communication between a monoglot Swahili speaker and a monoglot French speaker
No constructed language has ever fulfilled this role,
No worries! An invented auxlang doesn't have to actually fulfill the role for it to be picked apart and criticised. What's being criticised isn't its potential to fulfill a role, nor its lack of filling the role. Rather, the language itself. Does it do what its author says it can do as easily as claimed by its author?

(In other words, it kind of goes without saying that the auxlang hasn't fulfilled its role --- there's not a lot of use in pointing that obvious fact out!)

Case in point: the OP's original offering presented us with lots of square wheel reinvention. The criticisms offered can be seen as something of a wake-up call. These things have been done before; these are reasons why these things don't work as advertised; they provide an opportunity to reevaluate and in this case, scrap the original project in favour of an entirely new approach.
the criteria examined are as illusory as the putative results ...
They're only as illusory as one cares to avoid examination!
Sorry, but the rest of your statement kind of ... wanders off into incomprehensibility. Care to restate in an auxlang
The true auxiliary languages have none of these characteristics, except to be the language of the dominant ...
Which characteristic?, wanding off into incomprehensibility? ;))
auxlangs are designed to be useful. If they're not, then they deserve constructive criticism in large quantities.
Thus for a constructed language, whatever the why, it is the possibility of functioning which is the only interest ...
True that. Not just "functioning", but functioning as advertised by the author. If the author says "a truly international language" and "ease of learning for anyone regardless of their native language", then that's the functionality that is of interest. If the author says "ease of use and learning for any speaker of a Slavic language", then thát is the functionality that is of interest. Perspective and examination of the auxlang will differ; criticisms will also differ considerably.
(if necessary, classify it in artlang ...)
Probably the best idea, when it comes to the quixotic quest of all Auxlangers!
If this is the case, it would make a good auxlang (if chosen)...
(The artlangs are the only languages of the XXI to have crossed the border barrier...)
Heh! That is so true!

I'm sure the irony of Na'vi, Dothraki, Quenya and Klingon serving as more useful auxlangs than every invented IAL apart from Esperanto is lost on no Artlanger!
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Axiem » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 17:51

Rodiniye wrote: some people think that the privilege of being a lingua franca should not be given to a natural language
Hold up. Are you seriously suggesting that linguae francae are chosen? Who has the power to bestow lingua franca status unto a language? Is there a secret cabal or something?
but to a constructed language so that a specific nation (or group of) do not have advantages in international relations.
What do you mean by "advantages"? Does natively speaking a language actually confer those advantages? If it does, and that is important, why don't countries just adopt/impose English (being the current lingua franca) upon their populations?
As for the similarities with Rodinian, there are some, but the phylosophy is very different. Rodinian had 100 pages for its grammar and this one only around 20, and with some practice. Atlas has taken all the garbage out, included some new features and keeping only what was necessary.
How do you determine what's "necessary", especially in so short a time? Do you have a corpus of translation work that you've done to suss out concepts and ideas that you would want to express in the language?
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Frislander » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 17:57

Here we go again...

Who are you trying to foll by calling your grammtical gender/noun-classes "grammar categories"? We can all see what they really are.

Honestly your preposition stock looks just too large to be practical for people outside of Europe, you should probably consider jettisoning most of them and using verbs to cover their meanings instead (and also "back and forth" is not a preposition anyway). A system of this complexity would be just a joy to an englanger; in an auxlang it just looks unweildy.

I seriously question the need for a full past-present-future tense inflection system when 1. you already have aspect and 2. you could just get adverbs to deal with the specifics and leave the rest to context.

Your verbal prefixes, while interesting, look a bit too much: your potential-irrealis looks like it behaves a bit like a typical european subjunctive, while the middle, while a neat tool in an artlang, just looks a bit out of place, especially given the rather disparate range of uses it has.

Doubtless I could say more but that's the bits which spring to me first reading through the document. Honestly you should have stuck with Rodinian as your artlang project.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by lsd » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 17:59

Axiem wrote:What do you mean by "advantages"? Does natively speaking a language actually confer those advantages? If it does, and that is important, why don't countries just adopt/impose English (being the current lingua franca) upon their populations?
why do you think english is spoken all over the world...
Honestly you should have stuck with Rodinian as your artlang project.
or present it like that...
(but without a auxlang goal, the stakes are lower... no matter the functionning of it...)
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 19:26

Frislander wrote:Here we go again...

Who are you trying to foll by calling your grammtical gender/noun-classes "grammar categories"? We can all see what they really are.

Honestly your preposition stock looks just too large to be practical for people outside of Europe, you should probably consider jettisoning most of them and using verbs to cover their meanings instead (and also "back and forth" is not a preposition anyway). A system of this complexity would be just a joy to an englanger; in an auxlang it just looks unweildy.

I seriously question the need for a full past-present-future tense inflection system when 1. you already have aspect and 2. you could just get adverbs to deal with the specifics and leave the rest to context.

Your verbal prefixes, while interesting, look a bit too much: your potential-irrealis looks like it behaves a bit like a typical european subjunctive, while the middle, while a neat tool in an artlang, just looks a bit out of place, especially given the rather disparate range of uses it has.

Doubtless I could say more but that's the bits which spring to me first reading through the document. Honestly you should have stuck with Rodinian as your artlang project.
Prepositions

1- substituting prepositions by verbs is probably even more complicated than prepositions, plus the majority of the 16 languages use prepositions instead of verbs for this purpose. Anyway, this is a big fallacy, because making prepostions disappear in order to use another system does not make the whole package easier.

2 - there are not that many prepositions, and their use is very defined and specific. From my experience people tend to master only one of the meanings of the prepositions when studying a language. Try to ask the question to English B1 students in my country, most of them only know one meaning of the preposition "by", amongst others.

3 - "back and forth" is a preposition in Atlas, same as "cabe" is a preposition in Spanish without an English equivalent. Do not refer to your native language only.

4 - Preposition in Atlas play a key role in word construction. In Atlas you create the vocabulary with only 500ish roots and prepositions, so the meaning of the prepositions needs to be clear, otherwise the words meanings would not be intuitive.

Word classification

You take it as you like it. In Atlas there is word category and gender, separately. Gender is optional. Word category is easier than opening your eyes and it makes the vocabulary very flexible, so for every single root you can have 3-4 different words. I am not trying to do anything, I just made everything a bit more simple. I understand than for many people gender and word category is the same, but if you for instance look at the swahili word classification then you might want to reconsider what you understand by gender (or not).

Verbs

1 - The middle voice is extremely useful in order to specify some meanings. Some languages like Spanish still have it (although hidden) with the "se pasiva", and English uses get+verb sometimes for uses very close to the middle voice. So it is present in language and with very different solutions. The Atlas way is easy.

2 - Verb prefixes (apart from the last one), there are only 5 prefixes in total... and that covers 80% of the verb difficulty. I can't see it being that difficult. English and other languages have an extremely complicated process for the passive voice, in Atlas yoVeru only add be-, not even "by" afterwards. Could it get any easier?

3 - Verb suffixes, yes you could get away with nothing. If I tell you that the past ends in "t," present in "s" future in "z" and that's it. You learnt 50% of the language in 3 seconds. Wow! [:O] that added a lot of extra difficulty. As per aspect... it is not same as tense. You could mix both up, but still it is not the same. Again, it takes 5 seconds to be learnt and you get so much extra information for an effort of a few seconds that is worth it.




Let's play a game. Tell me one grammar (only one) easier than Atlas. You have not mentioned that:
- it uses far less pronouns than other languages.
- no infinitive or gerund or participle.
- no declensions, no adective agreement.
- no relatives, no complex sentences.
- simple phonology.
- intuitive word recognition.
- only 500ish roots.
- no exceptions.
- no complex verb forms.

So, play the game. One grammar which is easier than Atlas [:)]
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Frislander » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 21:46

Rodiniye wrote:1- substituting prepositions by verbs is probably even more complicated than prepositions, plus the majority of the 16 languages use prepositions instead of verbs for this purpose. Anyway, this is a big fallacy, because making prepostions disappear in order to use another system does not make the whole package easier.
I'm not talking about another inflectional system, I'm talking about having separate verbs roots for these kinds of things: "stand/ne near", "walk towards", "go across", because most of these prepositions are to do with motion or location, so why not just have a set of verbs with these meanings instead? If you only have about 500-odd roots you're going to be compounding a lot anyway: this would just make compounding of "prepositions" the same as other kinds of compounding.
2 - there are not that many prepositions, and their use is very defined and specific. From my experience people tend to master only one of the meanings of the prepositions when studying a language. Try to ask the question to English B1 students in my country, most of them only know one meaning of the preposition "by", amongst others.
Not that many? Only from a European perspective; there are plenty of languages out there which get along just fine without them.

I'm not even saying get rid of all prepositions: certainly a locative and an instrumental I think are probably at least a bare minimum for an auxlang. But having this many is just ridiculous, and screams of euro-centrism.
3 - "back and forth" is a preposition in Atlas, same as "cabe" is a preposition in Spanish without an English equivalent. Do not refer to your native language only.
But its semantics are clearly adverbial in nature! Unless you're talking about something equivalent to "back and forth between" something then I see how you could construe it as a preposition, but then I just have to ask why you don't just have a verb meaning "move back and forth (between something)".
You take it as you like it. In Atlas there is word category and gender, separately. Gender is optional. Word category is easier than opening your eyes and it makes the vocabulary very flexible, so for every single root you can have 3-4 different words. I am not trying to do anything, I just made everything a bit more simple. I understand than for many people gender and word category is the same, but if you for instance look at the swahili word classification then you might want to reconsider what you understand by gender (or not).
You're showing that common misconception of "grammatical gender = biological sex", a fallacy which was debunked long ago; just because you call it by another name doesn't stop it from being a system of grammatical gender.
1 - The middle voice is extremely useful in order to specify some meanings. Some languages like Spanish still have it (although hidden) with the "se pasiva", and English uses get+verb sometimes for uses very close to the middle voice. So it is present in language and with very different solutions. The Atlas way is easy.
And here we are again, the old "this bit of grammar is easy because it's in my auxlang" rhetoric that auxlangers are so fond of. Repeatedly telling people "it's easy" doesn't make it any easier, or any less idiosyncratic: how are your prepositions only allowed to have a "fixed, defined meaning" and yet your middle voice stretches from "change of state of subject" to "non-animated subjects/the author is unknown".
2 - Verb prefixes (apart from the last one), there are only 5 prefixes in total... and that covers 80% of the verb difficulty. I can't see it being that difficult. English and other languages have an extremely complicated process for the passive voice, in Atlas yoVeru only add be-, not even "by" afterwards. Could it get any easier?
Yes: by not having the passive voice at all. You could just have topic-prominent syntax and allow the agent to be dropped (for instance: other strategies are available). And really if it just swaps the arguments around then it technically isn't a passive it's an inverse.
3 - Verb suffixes, yes you could get away with nothing. If I tell you that the past ends in "t," present in "s" future in "z" and that's it. You learnt 50% of the language in 3 seconds. Wow! [:O] that added a lot of extra difficulty.
As regular and agglutinative as it may be, it's not going to take 5 seconds to learn it to fluency. And you haven't answered my point which is why aren't you just happy with letting tense go unspecified and just having adverbs like "yesterday" or "tomorrow" or "earlier" to give specifics?
As per aspect... it is not same as tense. You could mix both up, but still it is not the same.
I know they're not the same, but I find aspect to be more useful a category to distinguish than tense. In fact, if you were going to have only one category on the verb in your auxlang I'd pick aspect.
Let's play a game. Tell me one grammar (only one) easier than Atlas.
OK then, if you insist: Mandarin Chinese (or alternatively Malay/Indonesian or any English-derived creole, but you asked for one only so I'll say Malay).
- it uses far less pronouns than other languages.
Not compared to language which have only 2 pronouns.
- no infinitive or gerund or participle.
Not having inflected non-finite forms is nothing special (see again Malay/Indonesian or Mandarin)
- no declensions, no adective agreement.
OK, fine enough as it goes.
- no relatives, no complex sentences.
No complex sentences? Then what on earth are chapters 17 & 18 for?
- simple phonology.

Nope. It only counts as "simple" to someone who has barely stepped outside of Europe: copare Rotokas or Hawaiian or Ainu.
- intuitive word recognition.
What, in the "oh, this word is just like that in my native language" sense? Because with a vocabulary mix like that you're only going to get so far.
- only 500ish roots.
How are you going to manage with this? Because this will end up with extensive compounding, and what compounds you decide to use for which concepts will not be the same as those anyone else would use.
- no complex verb forms.
Again, neither do Indonesian or Mandarin, though compared to them your inflection is actually pretty rich: you have tense, aspect, mood and voice all on the verb, which means it's approaching Japanese in terms of complexity.
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by lsd » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 22:24

And what Frislander think about a really auxlang, like English...
There is no identikit for what an auxland looks like...
It's just a conlang that works...
(but a creole-like grammar is surely not complete enough for a commercial tool an auxlang should be...)
Rodiniye
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Rodiniye » Mon 26 Jun 2017, 22:38

@Frislander

All I have to say - basically because I need to go to bed now! [:'(] - is that I have studied Chinese grammar and Indonesian grammar, and their books are around 400 pages long. Chinese is not that simple when you look at it deeply. However, some things in Atlas are taken from Chinese (like the idea of the "de" particle). There are a lot of things that are extremely simplified in Atlas, grammars are extremely big.

Your comment about verbs of motion, yes but you would need a word for them too, so you are saving prepositions but need to do that in another way.

Prepositions in Europe... Well, either they have prepositions, or postpositions, or declensions (much worse). I am European and don't know any major languages (at least) with no prepositions/declensions. Some of them (many) use both actually.

I admit it could be easier. Everything could be easier. Just do one pronoun, 3 verbs and 6 nouns and you might be able to communicate. Or even use pictures, why bother with grammar? But for me, an auxlang should be a common tool for effective communication, not only communication.

And no, it is not about saying "hey! my auxlang is very easy!", you have the grammar available and you can compare it to others. Everything you need to be fluent is in 20 pages, including index and practice. No way Chinese is easier than Atlas. The basics basics maybe yes (no tense for instance, no number). But then, if you look into it deeply... things change a bit. Then you adding "le" to verbs, "hui", "zai" and all the possibilities, and all the constructions, and all of the sudden verbs are not that easy anymore.

More coming tomorrow! It is a pleasure speaking to you
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Re: Atlas: new auxlang

Post by Axiem » Tue 27 Jun 2017, 00:20

Rodiniye wrote: 3 - "back and forth" is a preposition in Atlas, same as "cabe" is a preposition in Spanish without an English equivalent. Do not refer to your native language only.
A preposition is a word that is placed before a preposition. I'm struggling to understand what the position after "back and forth" would even be.

That is, what does "ab gerbaxu" even mean?
If I tell you that the past ends in "t," present in "s" future in "z" and that's it.
That seems incredibly ripe for confusion, especially for verbs that end in /d/.
Let's play a game. Tell me one grammar (only one) easier than Atlas.
Pirahã.
- it uses far less pronouns than other languages.
(Fewer)
no complex sentences.
Then how do you express complex thoughts?

I really, really want to see an actual text translated into this language. Not piddly sample sentences; something meaty, like one of the Federalist papers.
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