Introducing Qutrussan

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Davush
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Sat 09 Sep 2017, 12:54

Creyeditor wrote:Wait, what was the general topic of your last post? Mood and Modality? Embedding? Clause connectors?
And concerning -anda. Is it only used for simultaneous action or can you use it for sentences like 'I got up and took a shower.'?
It was a bit of a mish-mash, sorry! [:D] I'll hopefully organise it more logically soon, I just thought I'd post the sketch of various ideas I have at the minute. -anda can be used like in the sentence you gave, e.g.:

mandasli cussunanda, murli álănnă.
I went to the temple, and came home.

I'm thinking of allowing it in colloquial speech to have a kind of modal (?) usage with past tense implying that the speaker is unsure or the action could happen among other things:

Zatral cussuḥ? Where did s/he go?
Mandasli cussushanda - (I think) S/he went to the temple (among other things)
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Wed 20 Sep 2017, 14:23

This is not so much new material, but I thought I would post a summary of Qutrussan verbal morphology. There are some small changes mostly based on what I think sounds/looks nicer. Overall I want a not-too-complicated but balanced and pleasing verbal system.

Stem Types
Qutrussan verbs are somewhere between inflectional and agglutinative. Certain inflectional categories are non-concatenative.
Verb stems come as consonantal or vocal stems. Vocal stems always end in a long vowel.

Consonantal: thim- 'to speak'
Vocal: nallá- 'to come up'

In addition to these two stems, there also exist 'reducing' stems. I might call these 'short' stems. Reducing stems tend to elide a vowel in certain forms, such as thim- vs. íthm-. Whether a stem can elide a vowel is based on phonotactics and is usually predictable. In actual speech, certain unpredictable or irregular forms can be common depending on speaker and dialect.

Verbs have the following inflectional categories:

Person
Tense: Non-past vs Past
Voice: Active vs Passive
Polarity: Affirmative vs Negative
Mood: Imperative

Present Participle
Passive Participle
Verbal Noun

Suffixes which are always attached directly after personal pronouns (such as the interrogative -ai or connective -anda are not included).
A maximally inflected verb can combine tense, voice, polarity and/or mood:

Summary of Verbal Morphology
Base stem: thim- 'to speak'

Active
Non-Past: thim- // thimin, thimir, thimiḥ thimúnă, thimúcă, thimúshă
Past: íthm- // íthmin, íthmir, íthmiḥ, íthmun, íthmur, íthmuḥ

(I have just realised the past forms could lead to some ambiguity when the stem vowel is -u-, i.e. is úmrun 1p singular or plural? I don't like úmrún with two long vowels, though. Perhaps something like úmrunnu could be a solution. This can be optional for non-u verbs: íthmun / íthmunnu.)

Passive:
Non-Past: thimmay- // thimmayan, thimmayar, thimmayaḥ, thimmayúnă, thimmayúcă, thimmayúshă
Past: íthĭmy- // íthĭmyan, íthĭmyar, íthĭmyaḥ, íthĭmyúnă, íthĭmyúcă, íthĭmyúshă

Imperative: thimá (sg.) thimuyá (pl.)
Negative Imperative: thimippa (sg.), thimippú (pl.)

Present participle: thimiqqa
Past participle: íthmiqqa
Passive (past) participle: íthĭmyaqqa

Verbal noun: thíthĭm

If we include the additional suffixes, a verb can become quite long. I don't want crazy long agglutinative type verbs though, so such examples as below should be rare:

d'íthĭmyashanda... 'it wasn't spoken and...'
áthăggayasshai? was he killed? (Maybe I need to make the passive more compact somehow).

I haven't yet fully decided on how the negative forms will be. I am thinking of having alternative forms: an infix occurring before the pronominal suffix, and a particle. The infix form will be considered more 'correct' but the particles more common in speech. I don't know whether -pp- or -dd- as the infix looks nicer...

thimippan / thimiddan / dă thimin / pă thimin - 'I don't speak'
íthmippan / íthmiddan / d'íthmin / p'íthmin - 'I didn't speak'
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Wed 27 Sep 2017, 11:09

The Cat and the Fish

Attempting to translate some lines from this:

Qótuv ámmaḥ
cat PAST-exist-3p

Tsinai vă hicil yussuḥ
small and white COP.PAST-3p

Ázămrashanda ramyuarqa yussuḥ.
PAST-look.for-3P-and hungry COP.PAST-3p
*ramyuărqa is derived from: yuar 'hunger' with the adjectival suffix -qa. Ram- is often used as an intensifier, from ráma 'big'.

Zálna gágvăshal cussuḥ.
food-GEN search.GER-DAT go.PAST-3p
*I think simple nominalizations of single syllable verbs of the CVC- type will simply lengthen the vowel. So zal- 'to eat', zál 'food'. I don't know the best way to gloss a gerund/infinitive/nominal verb?

Tsélla shurcum ágvăshashanda fízra ádaccaḥ.
tree begind-LOC PAST-look.for-and acorn-ACC PAST-find-3p
*I think post-positional phrases will have the head noun in the nominative, and the post-position will take the locative (or sometimes dative) case.

Qótvu fízrú dă zalúshămmai!
cat-PL acorn-PL NEG eat-3pl-but
*I think -mmai will be used as a kind of 'but' suffix. Any ideas on a better term for this? And/or how to gloss it?

Hurca tactam ágvăshashanda tsiccipa ádaccaḥ.
rock below-LOC PAST-look.for-3p-and insect-ACC PAST-find-3p
*I am thinking of introducing some derivational morphology or different class of verbs to distinguish between 'look for' and 'find' - I think this is related to stative and dynamic verbs?

Qótvu tsiccipú dă zalúshămmai!
cat-PL insect-ACC.PL NEG eat-3pl-but

Murmi ágvăshashanda valdam bĭlĭthqa hósha útsŭnnaḥ.
house-LOC PAST-look.for-3p-and table-LOC interesting thing-ACC PAST-see-3p

Rua yussuḥ! Ruan zázăla mayálaḥ!
fish COP.PAST-3p. fish-GEN eat.GER-ACC love-3p

Valda vórli ádăhcáshanda ruaya áhthaḥ.
table on.top-DAT PAST-jump-3p-and fish-ACC PAST-take-3p.

Hó! Cal ăsh ruaya háhătha útsunnaḥ.
oh.no person 3p-ACC fish-ACC take.GER-ACC PAST-see-3p.

I'm quite pleased with the orthography and general feel of the language, I think it is has mostly achieved what I was hoping for. Some parts might be a bit too robotic and/or regular at the minute. I am also unsure how the language will deal with:
'The person saw him taking the fish' type sentences. Qutrussan uses nominal verbs quite a lot.

And here's the text just to see what it looks like uninterrupted:

Qótuv ámmaḥ Tsinai vă hicil yussuḥ Ázămrashanda ramyuarqa yussuḥ. Zálna gágvăshal cussuḥ. Tsélla shurcum ágvăshashanda fízra ádaccaḥ. Qótvu fízrú dă zalúshămmai! Hurca tactam ágvăshashanda tsiccipa ádaccaḥ. Qótvu tsiccipú dă zalúshămmai! Murmi ágvăshashanda valdam bĭlĭthqa hósha útsŭnnaḥ. Rua yussuḥ! Ruan zázăla mayálaḥ! Valda vórli ádăhcáshanda ruaya áhthaḥ. Hó! Cal ăsh ruaya háhătha útsŭnnaḥ.

Alternative orthography for comparison: (I feel like this makes it look more classical, but doesn't have as much as a 'Qutrussan' feel to it).

Qōtuv āmmaḥ Cinai vă hikil yussuḥ Ázămraśanda ramyuarqa yussuḥ. Zālna gāgvăśal kussuḥ. Cēlla śurkum āgvăśaśanda fīzra ādakkaḥ. Qōtvu fīzrū dă zalūśămmai! Hurka taktam āgvăśaśanda cikkipa ādakkaḥ. Qōtvu cikkipū dă zalūśămmai! Murmi āgvăśaśanda valdam bĭlĭthqa hōśa ūcŭnnaḥ. Rua yussuḥ! Ruan zāzăla mayālaḥ! Valda vōrli ādăḥkāśanda ruaya āhthaḥ. Hō! Kal ăś ruaya hāhătha ūcŭnnaḥ.

IPA:

/ˈqo:tʊv ˈɑ:mmæɦ. tsiˈnæi vǝ ħiˈcɪl ˈjussʊɦ. ˈɑ:dzǝmɾæˌʃændæ ˈɾæmju:ǝrqæ ˈjussʊɦ. ˈdzɑl:næ ˈgɑ:gvǝʃæl ˈkussʊɦ. ˈtse:llæ ˈʃuɾkum ˈɑ:gvǝʃæˌʃændæ ˈfi:dzɾ~ˈɑ:dækkæɦ. ˈqo:tvu ˈfi:dzɾu: dǝ dzæˈlu:ʃǝmmæi. ˈħʊɾkæ ˈtæktæm ˈɑ:gvǝʃæˌʃændæ ˈtsɪiccip~ˈɑ:dækkæɦ. ˈqo:tvu ˈtsɪccipu: dǝ dzæˈlu:ʃǝmmæi. ˈmʊɾmi ˈɑ:gvǝʃæʃændæ ˈvældæm bǝˈlǝθqæ ħo:ʃ~ˈu:tsǝnnæɦ. ɾu:ǝ ˈjussʊɦ. ɾu:ǝn ˈdzɑ:dzǝlæ mæˈjɑ:læɦ. ˈvældæ ˈvo:ɾli ˈɑ:dǝħˌkɑ:ʃændæ ˈɾu:ǝja ˈɑ:ħθæɦ. ħo:! kæl ǝʃ ˈɾu:ǝjæ ˈħɑ:ħǝθæ ˈu:tsǝnnæɦ/

It seems that initial stress is the most common if I use the 'heavy syllables attract stress' rule.
The schwa is also mostly appearing as a result of reduction in certain verb forms in this example. I would like to make it more of a 'real' vowel. Historically, I imagine it as having come from a merger of /ɛ ɔ/ into /ǝ/ (even when stressed). But it also emerges as a result of reduction. The downside is that too many ă/ĭ/ŭ make it look cluttered. There is always the option of using <ǝ> in the orthography, but this detracts from the pseudo-classical feel, I think.

ágvăshashanda > ágvǝshashanda > āgvǝśaśanda?

I was considering making the past-tense forms have pronominal prefixes so:
Non-Past: zalan 'I eat'
Past: názăl 'I ate' (ázăllan)
But this feels too Semitic-y, and I think the original forms with an initial long vowel look nicer since vowel-initial words are rare in Qutrussan.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 12:10

Conditionals
Conditionals always seem to trip me up. Here's an initial attempt anyway.

Basic 'if' clauses are formed by adding tsá after the verb:

hatra zalar tsá...
this eat-2p if
If you eat this

The 'then' clause must contain 'thai'.

hatra zalar tsá, thai ăc thaggaḥ
this eat-2p if, then 2p.ACC kill-3p
If you eat this, he will (surely) kill you

In colloquial speech, tsá can be omitted but thai cannot:

curur (tsá), thai curun
if you go, I'll goo

The next type of conditional is the counterfactual. The 'if' clause uses the particle săm, and the 'would' clause uses the particle thassăm (probably a contraction of thai+săm).

When used with the present tense it looks like:

Hatra săm zalan, thassăm ăn thaggaḥ
If I were to eat this, he would kill me

When referring to past action, it looks slightly different as the verb hóss- is used.

Hatra (săm) ázăllan, thassăm ăn tháthăgga hóssŭḥ
this COND eat.PAST.1p then 1p.ACC kill.GER.ACC COND.PAST.3p
If I had eaten this, he would have killed me

The past can be used instead of gerund + hóss- but this is now considered archaic.

săm may be ommitted in both types, especially in shorter sentences.
ca (săm) curur, nábai thassăm curun
If you were to go, I would go too

hóss- often appears with the suffix -mmai:

cúcra hóssŭnŭmmai...
I would have gone (but)...

As usual, the gerund can be replaced by the -anda form in colloquial language:

curunanda hóssŭn
I would have gone

I can imagine the precise usage of tsá and săm causing some confusion and leading to different outcomes in dialects. If this seems very IE, please do say so as it's very much a WIP.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Creyeditor » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 21:06

I feel like the aesthetics of your language is shifting more towards Semitic. Is that intentional?
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 22:26

Hmm, not exactly intentional. This is probably my own interest in Semitic languages crossing over too much. I would be happy if it gave a kind of IE-meets-Semitic feel, but I hope it doesn't come across as too blatantly emulating the semitic aesthetic.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 00:09

Although Qutrussan is by no means 'finished', I think it now has a solid enough base to consider some daughter language developments. I think my main goal with Qutrussan itself will be to make it not too Semitic-ish, as I have enough Semitic in my life already... [:D]

(Edited: Saving daughter lang stuff for a later date.)
Last edited by Davush on Tue 24 Oct 2017, 10:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Tuyono » Mon 23 Oct 2017, 09:58

Davush wrote:Hmm, not exactly I would be happy if it gave a kind of IE-meets-Semitic feel, but I hope it doesn't come across as too blatantly emulating the semitic aesthetic.
For what it's worth, I'm a native Hebrew speaker and to me it feels more IE . I guess we tend to take for granted whatever parts we find more familiar - that would be IE for most people here, but for me it's the other way around. So I think you succeeded with your mixed aesthetic.
I also just really like it and will have to be careful not to steal your ideas subconciously [:P]
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by gestaltist » Mon 23 Oct 2017, 13:48

Davush wrote:I think English/Spanish/Mandarin are good analogues. I would have preferred a more medieval setting because I feel magic/mystical stuff is more suited to that general aesthetic and I would like to incorporate that, but then, I suppose it's unlikely a language/empire could exist over such a large area without the naval technologies of the early modern? The ocean currents within the white-line are also quite complicated, but I think they more or less allow for constant to-ing and fro-ing. I enjoy the geology side of mapping, but I'm so not good at the historical (human) side of things...!
Well, depending on how much magic the world has, magic could supplement more primitive technology to make big empires viable...
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Tue 24 Oct 2017, 10:17

Tuyono wrote:
Davush wrote:Hmm, not exactly I would be happy if it gave a kind of IE-meets-Semitic feel, but I hope it doesn't come across as too blatantly emulating the semitic aesthetic.
For what it's worth, I'm a native Hebrew speaker and to me it feels more IE . I guess we tend to take for granted whatever parts we find more familiar - that would be IE for most people here, but for me it's the other way around. So I think you succeeded with your mixed aesthetic.
I also just really like it and will have to be careful not to steal your ideas subconciously [:P]
Thanks for the kind words! It is certainly interesting to hear a native Semitic speaker’s opinion. I think I will leave the daughter language alone for now and continue to improve Qutrussan itself. My next step is to probably start making a proper comprehensive grammar document/pdf. There are some things which I haven’t decided on yet (comparatives, adverbs, etc.) which I will probably do next.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:13

Adjectives
This section is likely to change quite a bit because I'm not not satisfied with adjectives/adverbs, but here are some ideas I'm working with.

There is a class of 'true adjective' roots which tend to be quite short, some exaples:
ram- 'big'
tsin- 'small'
darsh- 'new'
fŭr- 'old'
shiz- 'quiet'

When used attributively, they gain the suffix -ai:

ramai mur 'a big house'
tsinai harca 'a small stone'
etc.

When used predicatively with the copula, a lengthened echo vowel is added (-ŭĭ lengthen to -óé respectively):
mur ramá yaḥ 'the house is big'
qótvu tsiní yaḥ 'the cat is small'
par fŭró yaḥ 'the man is old'

All true adjectives can have the emphatic prefix há- which has a variety of uses. Some dialects geminate the preceding consonant, this is also considered acceptable in the standard.

hádarshai valda 'a brand new table'
háramá yashúnă 'they are (very) big indeed'

The second class of adjectives are typically formed from a noun + a suffix. The most common suffix is -qa which indicates 'possessing the quality of'.

durru 'power, strength'
durruqa 'strong'

lusam 'beauty'
lusamqa 'beautiful'

These adjectives do not have a separate attributive or predicative form:
durruqa par 'a strong man'
par durruqa yaḥ 'the man is strong'

Although, in colloquial language -qa yaḥ often becomes -qáḥ 'par durruqáḥ)

Comparatives
Comparatives of true adjectives are formed by addition of the prefix zi- + gemination:

zirram- 'bigger'
zittsin- 'smaller'
ziddarsh- 'newer'
etc.

I am still working out how to us these in sentences, but I quite like the 'surpass' verb solution. Perhaps there will be 2 ways of marking comparatives. Anyway, using the basic 'locational' type with normal copula:

ména parră-sa zirramá yaḥ 'the woman is bigger than the man'
woman man.GEN-from COMP-big COP

It is also possible to use the emphatic form here, which gives an even bigger contrast: 'ména parră-sa háramá yaḥ' 'the woman is much bigger than the man'

When used alone, the há- form is more common:
hárramá yaḥ 'he/she/it is bigger' (*zirramá yaḥ)

Derived adjectives cannot use the zi- form, and instead use the adverb qthá 'more':
qazi qótvun-sa qthá durruqa yaḥ
The child is stronger than the cat
(child cat-from more strong COP)

In colloquial speech, it is common for some dialects to use qthá with true adjective:
qthá ramai mur 'a bigger house' etc. for 'zirramai mur' or 'háramai mur'
but this is considered incorrect.

Adverbs
TBC

It seems that a lot of adjective stuff has prefixes - I'm not sure how realistic this would be in a strictly SOV head-final language. Maybe I should throw in some suffixes.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by gestaltist » Thu 26 Oct 2017, 11:17

This is for some reason one of the most enjoyable conlang threads I've ever read.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Thu 26 Oct 2017, 17:47

gestaltist wrote:This is for some reason one of the most enjoyable conlang threads I've ever read.
Thanks! [:D] I am glad you are enjoying it!
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Fri 27 Oct 2017, 10:05

Clawgrip pointed out that the adjectival system in the previous post was more or less Japanese in disguise, so I have tweaked it a bit to what I think is more 'authentically' Qutrussan. This means it is now more boringly IE in that adjectives come in several inflection classes with minor agreement, and there is no longer the predicative suffix. I will probably refine this as I go along.

-a -i -u and -ă adjectives agree in number with the noun they modify. (They come from the previous 'true adjectives'). The final vowels change thus: -au, -yú, -ú, -au:

rama~ramau - big
tsini~tsinyú - small
phŭru~phŭrú - old (trying out ph instead of f)

rama mur 'a big house'
ramau muru 'big houses'

phŭru mandas - an old temple
phŭrú mandasu - old temples

etc.

When used predicatively, they also agree:
rama yaḥ - it is big
ramau yúshă - they are big

There is also a contracted form, which although less 'classical', is probably more common in speech. Agreement is ignored and the copula is attached directly to the adjective (clusters permitting).

ramyaḥ - it is big
ramyúshă - they are big

There are also many adjectives which end in -ai, these are invariable:

galai - eloquent, refined (e.g. Galaithíma, another name for Qutrussan)
shizai - quiet

There are many adjectives derived from nouns via various suffixes. These suffixes usually have their own inflectional properties. One of the most common is -qa or -qqa (-qu in the plural):

durru - strength, power
durruqa - strong, powerful
durruqu paru - strong men

Another common adjectival suffix is -(n)nai which is invariable, meaning 'like'. This is particularly common with words from animals and natural phenomenon whose meaning has become lexicalised.

saldu - tiger
saldunnai - very agile and fast (i.e. tiger-like)

nua - moon
nuannai - shiny, bright, silver (i.e. moon-like)

Há- can still be used as an emphatic but only predicatively:
hárama yaḥ - it is very big

Comparatives work the same way (for now), with -a -i -u -ă adjectives taking the prefix zi- and others the adverb qthá.

Colours are also their own category, mostly appearing in the form of CVC(C)VC roots which are invariable:
duluth - black
shiril - white
luccul - blue
dĭrrĭp - red
réshĭq - green
yambar - yellow
shóruv - purple
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Sat 28 Oct 2017, 13:37

Adverbs

In general, adjectives can be used as adverbs without change and this is the most common in spoken language.

Galai íthmih - he/she spoke eloquently (galai - eloquent)

Short (I.e. one or two syllable) adjectives often have a reduplicated form with an adverbial meaning:
Shizai - quiet
Shíshizai - quietly

Shíshizai thimuyé - Please speak quietly

I’m not sure whether it should be partial reduplication as above, or full reduplication: Shizi-shizai

In more formal registers, the adjective may appear inflected as if for the locative case when used adverbially, especially for longer adjectives.
Galaimi
Shizaimi
Saldunnaimi

Etc.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Sun 29 Oct 2017, 09:46

I initially didn't set any very detailed restraints on syllables and clusters and the likes because I just wanted to create words that I felt were pleasing, and then see how they may fit into 'rules'. I think there is a large enough base of words + morphology to have a more detailed look at syllable structure, etc.

Voiced consonants are always doubled between vowels, so a minimal pair based on voicing might look like:

pata
patta
padda


In the first example, pata, I think there will be some discrepancy over voicing, with half of Qutrussan speaking territory having an unvoiced consonant, and the other half having a voiced consonant leading to the pairs pada, padda, patta.

When it comes to long vowels/diphthongs, there aren't really any restrictions, so theoretically:
páta, pátta, pádda can all occur. I was thinking of restricting long vowels before voiced consonants, or having voiced consonants de-geminate before a long vowel (padda vs páda).

Syllables can maximally be CCV(:)C, with CV(:) and CVC(:) the most common. CV(:)C syllables (or heavy syllables) attract stress. However, Qutrussan avoids words of the shape CV.CV.CV, so *putucu would not occur, but puttucu does. I feel like this has something to do with morae or there is a better explanation.

CV.CV.CV syllables probably existed in proto-Qutrussan, and some dialects have reacted to them differently. While CVC.CV.CV are common in the standard, in some dialects the second syllable may be the heavy one, i.e. pu.tuc.cu instead of put.tu.cu. This could lead to interesting developments later on.

Currently, words like ápănash V:CVCVC exist and are a common past-tense form, with stress on the initial vowel. I am thinking of making the second also be heavy so ápănnash instead. I feel like this relates to the previous rule somehow, but I'm not sure how common it would be to have this restriction only for certain morphological forms? I.e. cónuman (CV:CVCVC) is a valid root.

Diphthongs are rare in closed syllables, but this is not an outright restriction, however they seem to be avoided as shown by words ending in a diphthong taking the case forms which leave the syllable open:

galai > galaimi (not galaim)

Apart from some particles (which are probably better analysed as clitics), the shortest word form is CVC or CV: so 'da' is not permissible, but dá, dai, dia, dan, etc. are.

Many roots show voicing harmony, in that if the first consonant is a voiced stops, following stops are more likely to also be voiced. Initial voiced consonants seem to be rarer than unvoiced. I.e. cit- 'to come' and gidd- 'to cut'.

There is probably some other stuff which I'll add to this as I work it out.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 12:26

I have been thinking about place names for the capital city of Qutrus (Qutrussă Naggia, or colloquially, just Qutrus). The capital city is on the coast, in a steppe-like climate, probably slightly hotter than the mediterranean. Perhaps similar to the hot but fertile highlands of Yemen/Iran. It is surrounded by lavender fields and I think the city's/province's colours will be: Green, White and Lavender.

Some place names for within/around the city:

Vallarán Csádu - 'Lavender Fields' (referring to the outskirts of the city where it is cultivated. -án is a common way of deriving adjectives from nouns and is invariable, i.e. Qutrus > Qutrussán.)

Hurcassin - 'Little Rock' (there will be some little hills around and in the city. -ssin is a diminutive especially common in place names.)

Pthimussin - 'Little Island' (there is a river flowing through the city with a small island in the middle).

Shicil-Tŭrŭc - 'White Tower' (white-washed buildings are common in the city).

Phál-Tŭrŭc - 'River Tower' (I am liking <ph> for /f/, with the explanation that proto-Qutrussan had aspirated /pʰ tʰ kʰ/.)

Phálsuphál - 'South of the River'

Nuaddas - Temple of the Moon (-das meaning 'temple' from 'mandas')
Shiardas - Temple of the Sun

I am thinking of having the main religion being centred on the Sun and Moon / Night and Day - quite unimaginative, I suppose, but we will see.

I think for place names, adposition of nouns will be common, especially in older names, alternative with gen/adj + noun.

Rásharluru - 'The Green Places'

Hazamyónban - 'The House of the Elders' (-ban is a common suffix in place names meaning 'house of' or 'place of', in this case it is attached to the gen. pl. of hazam).

Thóthŭq - Etymology unknown. An old and crowded residential part of the city. Possibly a pre-Qutrussan name for the area.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 17:24

Yay for lavender. Also you might want to use more archaic term in you place names.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Fri 03 Nov 2017, 11:43

Creyeditor wrote:Yay for lavender. Also you might want to use more archaic term in you place names.
[:D]

My thinking was that place names within a city usually seem quite transparent, while actual city/regional names tend to be more archaic with obscure etymologies. I may be wrong though? Of course, the place names within the city should contain some archaic elements as well!
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 20:50

I think it's time to give some in-world context to Qutrussan and where it is spoken. I have changed where it is spoken, so the previous maps are obsolete now. I will hopefully update this with a new image at some point, but it is just words for now I'm afraid...!

Qutrussan - A Brief Introduction

Qutrussan is the name of the main and official language spoken on the large island of Qutrus. In Qutrussan, the language is referred to variously as Qutrussă Gilga (language of Qutrus), Gilga s-Qutrus (language of Qutrus), Galaithíma (the High Speech), Thímasnu (Our Speech), or simply Qutrussán (Qutrussan).

Confusingly, Qutrus can refer to: the entire island, a province, and the capital city of that province. The island itself is roughly the size of Spain and France combined, between the latitudes of 20-40. The southernmost part of the island is flat with a semi-arid steppe climate approaching desert conditions in parts. Moving northwards, the climate becomes more temperate reaching a mediterranean-like climate. A moderately high mountain range runs through the centre of the island, tapering off towards the South-West.

The Island of Qutrus is divided into 7 provinces, with the Province of Qutrus being the governmental, administrative, economic and military centre:
Qutrus - Located on the eastern most tip of the island, facing the Āos Continent.
Qashrus - Located below Qutrus, its climate is slightly harsher but is considered more or less the islands 'second' province and together with Qutrus is often known as 'Greater Qutrus'.
Stias - Located on the southern tip of the island. Very arid, and partly desert.
Yarthas - Located across the mountain across in the west.
Sadram - Similar, but above Yarthas.
Hutuppu - Located in the north-west, noted for its mild mediterranean-like climate and the highest mountain ranges.
Móri - The northern-most province.

The island is technically administered entirely by Qutrus, although each province has a high level of autonomy. The capital city, or Qutrussă Naggia, is of course, located in Qutrus Province.

In terms of language, Qutrussan is believed to find its origins somewhere in the Greater Qutrus region. The Qutrussan language(s) are believed to have arrived on the island from the main continent of Āos approximately 3,000 years ago, supplanting pre-existing languages. A precise glottochronology is difficult, but it probably looks something like:

Proto-Āos: Spoken in the western part of the large (largest?) continent Āos, which lies to the East of Qutrus.
Proto-Western-Āos, Proto-Eastern-Āos: A split occurs as one group appears to move north-eastwards.

At this point, it is assumed that Āossian languages dominated the Western plains and coastal region of Āos, but nearly all have now disappeared. There are rumours of small isolated groups still speaking languages which could well be Āossian, but most of this area now speaks languages from another family.

A branch of Proto-Western-Āos migrated to the island of Qutrus, becoming Proto-Qutrussan approximately 3,000 years ago. It is assumed that proto-Qutrussan split into several languages which diverged for approximately 1,000 years throughout the island.
Around 2,000 years ago, Ancient Qutrussan emerges somewhere around Qutrus-Qashrus. Old Qutrussan is established by 1,000 years ago and begins to dominate the entire island. Classical Qutrussan, the variety here, is codified by about 500 years ago and is now the main language of the entire island, having supplanted the other previously-spoken Qutrussan languages.

There are also two other known groups of languages which are not Qutrussan, and also probably not Āossian. The majority of the speakers live in isolated communities in the highlands in Hutuppu and Móri. They consider themselves ethnically and culturally distinct.

Since the spread of Classical Qutrussan, various 'Low Qutrussan' dialects/languages have arisen in the various provinces. The Western varieties are generally more divergent. The situation is probably similar to Latin & Vulgar Latin, but Classical Qutrussan still has a strong place as a spoken and written language, especially in Qutrus & Qashrus.

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My main issue is the naming of the continent Āos - this doesn't fit Qutrussan phonology, and I don't have an etymology for it but I named it this early on and it has stuck. I am also unsure how aware Qutrussan scholars will be of the history of their language. Also, since Qutrussan is more or less the only surviving branch of the family, it will make it hard for me to create a protolanguage. Perhaps some Āossian languages will have survived on the continent.

I am also unsure about how much time should elapse between each language/stage of a language. At the minute, I am using roughly 1000 year intervals per stage.
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