Introducing Qutrussan

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gestaltist
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by gestaltist » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 21:20

Davush wrote:
Since the spread of Classical Qutrussan, various 'Low Qutrussan' dialects/languages have arisen in the various provinces. The Western varieties are generally more divergent.
Wouldn't that place the likely origins of the language to the west? Languages tend to be the most varied close to their birthplace.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 21:29

gestaltist wrote:
Davush wrote:
Since the spread of Classical Qutrussan, various 'Low Qutrussan' dialects/languages have arisen in the various provinces. The Western varieties are generally more divergent.
Wouldn't that place the likely origins of the language to the west? Languages tend to be the most varied close to their birthplace.
That did occur to me, but I had in mind that the classical language held more sway in the East (its home region) due to its prestige status so dialects there are more conservative. Not sure how realistic that is, though.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Mon 06 Nov 2017, 12:19

Probably spent too much time on this recently, but here's a rough map of the new Qutrus homeland and provinces. I think I prefer this island. (Can an island this size even be called an island, or is it more of a semi-continent?)

Image
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 12:04

The Updated Passive

I have decided to change the passive because I wasn’t really happy with the first attempt. It left too many –aya-sequences, producing ugly things like ‘ayadayáqsaḥ’. Instead, the passive marker is now ṛ- which forms the passive stem:

daqs- to hit
ṛdaqs- to be hit

zal- to eat
ṛzal- to be eaten

It used to be realized as a /ɾC/ cluster, but is now generally /əC/ where C represents gemination of the following consonant.

The stem is the conjugated like a normal non-past verb:

ṛdaqsan – I am hit, I was hit
ṛzalaḥ - It is/was eaten

This basic passive form can have both a non-past and past meaning, depending on context. If the past really needs to be emphasised, the passive participle + past copula can be used.

The participle is formed by adding ṛ and lengthening the initial syllable, then adding the adjectival/relativizing suffix –Vq or –Vqqa (when used attributively):

ṛdáqsaq – hit
ṛzálaq – eaten
ṛthímiq - spoken
ṛthímiqqa gilga – the spoken language
ṛdáqsaq par – the man who was hit

The participle adds the suffix –ssa- to form a past tense. This is considered to be a contraction of yussuḥ.

Qutrussán hacsa ṛthímissaḥ
Qutrussan was spoken there

Par zúrmi ṛthaggassaḥ
The man was killed in the mountains

I am happier with this passive I think. I don't know whether I'll keep any trace of the -aya- passive.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 12:42

Minor update with some verb stuff.

Although a good number of roots are monosyllabic CVC type, this obviously can't account for all verbs. A second common type is CVC.CVC, where the syllable is often reduplicated, many of which probably stem from some sort of onomatopoeia. These behave in their own way.

phasphas- to wipe, to rub

The non-past is conjugated as other verbs, simply add an echo vowel and personal suffix:
phasphasan, phasphasar, phasphasaḥ, etc.

The past however does not have the prefixed long vowel. Instead, the final syllable is lengthened, and sa- is added before personal suffixes.

phasphas-
phasphássa-

phasphássan (I wiped) phasphássar (you wiped) etc.

Some final consonants will geminate instead of adding -s:

mishmish
- to walk
mishmishin - I walk
mishmísshan - I walked

I am thinking about having the initial syllable reduce to schwa, so:

phăsphássan, mĭshmísshan, etc.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by gestaltist » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 11:07

Could you talk a bit about the derivational morphology of Qutrussan?
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 22:17

Sure, although it isn't completely fleshed out at the minute. I find derivational morphology one of the more fun parts of conlanging, so I leave it till last. This also means that I have more words to play with by the time I start working on it properly.

Verb > Noun
This derivation creates a generic noun from a verb and is usually used with monosyllabic verbs. The nouns meaning isn't always predictable though, and it is not really productive. It is formed by lengthening the stem and adding -a:

zal- to eat
zála - food

ctav - to think
ctáva - a thought, idea

The second I call a root extension and is an infix of VyV: where V is an echo vowel. The sequence -iyí- becomes -iví-. The general meaning conveyed is one of a more intense form of the original root, reciprocal action, or action over a longer period. It is now very idiomatic and not productive.

daqs - to hit
dayáqs - to fight

thim- to speak, say
thivím- to have a conversation

Someone associated with an action (like -er in English) takes the suffix -nsa, but usually from the nominal root. It differs a bit from the present participle as it has a more specialised meaning. There is also -gul which acts as more of a collective, i.e. 'that group of people which x'

lal- to sing
lála - a song
lálansa - a singer
lálagul - singers (as a whole), lálansu - singers (individuals)

The suffix -tĭr is used to indicate tools.

cóllus - wheel
cóllusqa - 'having wheels'
cóllusqatĭr - wagon, car

phasphas- to wipe, rub
phasphastĭr - cloth (for wiping)

-lur and -ban commonly make nouns of place.

hitsal - flower
hitsallur - garden

cónum - wares, goods
cónumban - market

A common diminutive is -(s)sin. Sometimes it indicates physical smallness, and other times more idiomatic. It sometimes appears added to passive participles.

qótuv - cat
qótuvsin - little cat

thim- to speak
thíma - speech, language
ṛthímassin - a word (a little spoken thing) (maybe this will use the bare stem i.e. ṛthimsin instead)

-qa and -án commonly form adjectives from nouns. -qa is used more for a sense of 'possessing the quality' whereas -án is more 'in like of'.

durru - power
durruqa - strong

Qutrus - Qutrus
Qutrussán - from Qutrus, Qutrussan language

par - man
parrán - manly

há- can be used as an intensifier. With colours and some common adjectives, lengthening and reduplication the initial syllable has a similar function.

ramai - big
hárramai - very big

duluth - black
dúduluth - pitch black
rárama - big, huge

Although Qutrussan doesn't have gender, males and females can be indicated by suffixes -ar and -íth. For animals, the 'inherent' gender of the unmarked noun appears arbitrary.

qótuv - a (female) cat
qótuvar - a male cat, a tom cat

Compounding of nouns is also quite common. Sometimes the first noun appears in a reduced form or in the genitive. It is nowhere near as common as English or Chinese however. More recent compounds are usually just genitive + noun.

thar - earth
bŭncă - cloud
tharbŭncă - fog

lĭm - salt
mamma - water
lĭmyamma - saltwater

Phew, looks like I had more than I imagined, although there is still quite a bit to add but this gives a basic idea. [:D]
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by gestaltist » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 22:49

I like it - especially the infix.

I gotta say, I hope I can one day create a conlang as aesthetically pleasing as Qutrussan.
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by DesEsseintes » Wed 15 Nov 2017, 08:21

“Davush” wrote:The Updated Passive

I have decided to change the passive because I wasn’t really happy with the first attempt. It left too many –aya-sequences, producing ugly things like ‘ayadayáqsaḥ’.

I actually think ayadayáqsaḥ is rather delicious, although you must follow your own taste, of course.

An idea: if you haven’t thought of morphological causatives in Qutrussan, your y-rich forms could serve for those? They would be somewhat less common than the passive probably, being a more marked construction?
gestaltist wrote:
Mon 13 Nov 2017, 22:49
I gotta say, I hope I can one day create a conlang as aesthetically pleasing as Qutrussan.
Qutrussan is indeed pretty. [:)]

Gigi, have you identified what it is you find so pleasing about it?
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Void » Thu 16 Nov 2017, 00:59

Looks aesthetically pleasant. Have any grammatically quirky sentences?
mihor odh jörhönsüd šarhur zahrastakram

uhra róksud rétthírselle murgga arraukun duhšankatas
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by gestaltist » Thu 16 Nov 2017, 11:31

DesEsseintes wrote:
Wed 15 Nov 2017, 08:21
Gigi, have you identified what it is you find so pleasing about it?
That's a good (and hard) question. I wonder if you have?

One thing that I have noticed is that Davush's word-coining is on point. With a lot of Qutrussan words, I think to myself, "yes, that's exactly what a word meaning X should sound like." But this is a very subjective and hard to analyze feeling.

Other than that, I can't put my finger on what I like about it so much...
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Re: Introducing Qutrussan

Post by Davush » Fri 17 Nov 2017, 11:32

Void wrote:
Thu 16 Nov 2017, 00:59
Looks aesthetically pleasant. Have any grammatically quirky sentences?
Qutrussan is quite boringly IE in its overall structure, although it is a lot more strictly head-final than most classical IE languages, which make some things seem a bit closer to Japanese/Korean in some ways, but there are no major grammatical quirks I can think of. A brief overview would be: SOV, 5 cases, postpositions, non-past/past distinction, morphological passive, subjunctive form, extensive use of nominalisation of verbs.

Perhaps a sentence which illustrates many of these features would be:

Căn cúcŭr zúruvli hósha yussuhĭmmai, săm murli sna cissirda, thassăm zihósh yussuḥyá
2SG.GEN go.GER.NOM mountain-DAT.PL good COP.PAST-3SG-ADV-but if house-DAT my come.PAST-2SG-SUBJ then. better COP.PAST-3SG-EMPH
I think it was good that you went to the mountains, but it would have been better if you had come to my house (Lit: I think your going was good but if you came to my house, then it was better.)


DesEsseintes wrote:
Wed 15 Nov 2017, 08:21

I actually think ayadayáqsaḥ is rather delicious, although you must follow your own taste, of course.
It does sound nice as a stand-alone word, but I somehow feel it doesn't fit Qutrussan which prefers shorter words in general. There is a periphrastic causative, but maybe I can put -aya- to a different use somewhere. It is on the shelf for now though. (Sorry! [:O] )
gestaltist wrote:
Thu 16 Nov 2017, 11:31


One thing that I have noticed is that Davush's word-coining is on point. With a lot of Qutrussan words, I think to myself, "yes, that's exactly what a word meaning X should sound like." But this is a very subjective and hard to analyze feeling.
I find coining words which are aesthetically pleasing and which 'evoke' the meaning to be enjoyable, time consuming, and frustrating at the same time, so thank you for the kind words! [xD] Although I don't use any particular strategy, I think a lot of them rely (mostly unconsciously on my part) on similar combinations of sounds found in familiar IE/Semitic languages, which makes them seem semi-recognisable. For instance, I started another conlang with quite a non-IE phonology, and coming up with words which 'fit' the meaning is very very difficult so far.
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