Proper Name, Story of a life...

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lsd
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Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by lsd » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 21:20

In Memorian...
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what a name is...
A label, a mnemonic, to remember who was, what she did... from her childness to her pass away......
A login to our memories with no meaning except what we add on...

In a priori languages, the arbitrariness of language is the enemy, no word no name without autodefinition...
In a priori language "the girl in blue killed by train on December 14 1933" is a better name than "Jane Smith", even if it defines only one moment of the life of a girl, what does describe "Jane Smith"...

What is the meaning of a name in your conlang... a simple label or... something else...
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Ahzoh » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 21:56

You've been in a poetic mood as of late.
What is the meaning of a name in your conlang... a simple label or... something else...
In Vrkhazhian, a name represents an individual's character as well as the hopes and dreams of their parents.
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Frislander » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 22:25

lsd are you just going to make a new thread for each image now that your picture thread has been locked? Cause if so I don't think the rest of the community would want this.

Also why do you alwys end sentences with an ellipsis? It doesn't add anything and just makes you look silly if I'm honest.
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by lsd » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 22:29

Is it in a conlang forum abnormal to use different way of punctuate...
Does my questionnement on proper name seem so silly...
Because of introduced by a pic...
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by sangi39 » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 22:31

To step in, following on from what Aszev said in the now closed "pic of the day..." thread, if you have a genuine idea or question then please, by all means, create a new post, or find a thread relevant to that idea or question and post there. Do not, though, start a new thread for every photo you want to post on the board.

I'll admit that I can't tell if this is an idiosyncrasy or something else, but given that the last two threads that I've seen posted by you have included photos in the OP just after the "pic of the day..." thread was closed is somewhat suspicious.

If people want to carry on this topic and the one on handwriting then fair enough, but if too many of these kinds of threads turn up then at least one moderator will start considering them spam.
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by lsd » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 22:38

sangi39 wrote:if you have a genuine idea or question then please, by all means, create a new post, or find a thread relevant to that idea or question and post there.
That is why I post , I do not find an other appropriate thread for this Proper Name Idea... (feel free to move it if so)...
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by lsd » Thu 09 Nov 2017, 22:58

In a priori languages this problem is doubled because of the absence of double articulation, non-significant names are prevented ...

In natural languages, this name problem exists...
  • - In folk Native American names (I don't know if true) where an event of life baptizes the one who lived it...
    - In Mandarin Chinese where any syllables chosen, especially for foreign names, are meaningfull...
    - In some western names where the circumstances of the birth are evoked (dolores, désiré,...)
    - In modern societies where everyone wears a number often from his place and date of birth...
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 01:13

What modern society has everyone wear a number from birth!?
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by qwed117 » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 01:27

Thrice Xandvii wrote:What modern society has everyone wear a number from birth!?
He's talking about Social Security, I think
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Ahzoh » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 01:45

qwed117 wrote:
Thrice Xandvii wrote:What modern society has everyone wear a number from birth!?
He's talking about Social Security, I think
Or it means something like "a number [of names]"
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 01:48

qwed117 wrote:He's talking about Social Security, I think
I thought that too, or maybe birthdate, but the phrasing seemed significantly off for that.
lsd wrote:[...]double articulation[...]
Is this meant to refer to when a word has several different meanings? I think you mean a "double meaning" or perhaps syncretism?
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Salmoneus » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 13:21

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
qwed117 wrote:He's talking about Social Security, I think
I thought that too, or maybe birthdate, but the phrasing seemed significantly off for that.
lsd wrote:[...]double articulation[...]
Is this meant to refer to when a word has several different meanings? I think you mean a "double meaning" or perhaps syncretism?
No, it refers to the principle that the infinite variety of speech can be divided into a finite number of meaningful subunits (morphemes), and that those subunits can themselves be divided into a much, much smaller number of meaningless subunits (phonemes).

Theoretically, a loglang could do away with double articulation by either making each morpheme indivisible (made up of unique gestures that are not repeated in any other morpheme), or more likely by making the smallest discernable unit (our phonemes) a bearer of meaning - have a meaning (or more than one) for each phoneme, and build words up oligosynthetically.

However, almost no a priori languages actually try to do this, because it's a silly idea. And from context I think lsd is actually just misusing jargon to say something about the arbitrariness of names.

[it's best not to assume that any words lsd uses have any predictable relationship to their meaning. better still not to try to decipher them.]
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Frislander » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 13:28

Salmoneus wrote:[it's best not to assume that any words lsd uses have any predictable relationship to their meaning. better still not to try to decipher them.]
Oh the arbitrarty!
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by lsd » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 12:48

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
qwed117 wrote:He's talking about Social Security, I think
I thought that too, or maybe birthdate, but the phrasing seemed significantly off for that.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_ ... ion_number
Thrice Xandvii wrote:
lsd wrote:[...]double articulation[...]
Is this meant to refer to when a word has several different meanings? I think you mean a "double meaning" or perhaps syncretism?
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_articulation
In a priori conlang (in classical sense(call them philosophical)) I work on, there is usually the triple equality: 1 sign=1 sound=1 sense...
Difficult to have label names in them...
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 15:13

I had never heard that term and read it as "coarticulation" or "doubly articulated (consonant)." Neither of which made sense in context... Hence my guesses.
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Evynova » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 15:16

I'm pretty sure the question lsd is asking, is how we come up with names to refer to people as in our conlangs; he introduced the question with a picture and some background. I don't know why y'all are being so hostile; to be honest, I think it's a pretty interesting question, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen it asked anywhere on the forum. The thread would probably make more sense in the worldbuilding section though, in my humble opinion.

To answer your question, the Soo ta Angii name people according to physical or psychological characteristics. For example, someone who is particularly good-looking and looks healthy could be named Olita, which literally translates to "green, greenness", in reference to the green colour of plants and trees which are an important part of their folklore, or even Iki, lit. "flower". Someone who always stuck in their thoughts could be named Pikoko, "bird". Somebody who looks scary, angry, violent, may be named Lehos, "fire". The list goes on. Names are furthermore genderless, men and women can both be named Iki, for example.

The K'anerhtóh usually make up their names to sound nice; they don't necessarily have to mean anything. The name is chosen at birth and is kept throughout one's whole life. Making up names is usually done to avoid bearing the same name as someone from your family who passed away, or someone who was sentenced for a crime. Out of respect or taboo, and especially to prevent comparing people together (which is considered insulting), homonyms are avoided.
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by Reyzadren » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 00:50

Griuskant names usually don't mean anything, and are actually encouraged to have no meaning as to easily identify them as proper nouns/names in a sentence.
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by elemtilas » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 03:40

lsd wrote:
Thu 09 Nov 2017, 21:20
what a name is...
A label, a mnemonic, to remember who was, what she did... from her childness to her pass away......
A login to our memories with no meaning except what we add on...

What is the meaning of a name in your conlang... a simple label or... something else...
Daine almost universally name and rename themselves throughout their lives, so your title pretty much nails the screw right on the threads! The name you go by now will probably not be the name you go by in fifty or a hundred years and almost certainly is not the name you went by a century or two ago. Definitely not the name(s) you were given at birth. Close family members will likely be the only ones who continue to use those names throughout your life.

The meaning of a name is thus the person named. The true name of a person is the person; know the one and you'll know the other. Same goes for objects. Thing is name::name is thing. Some objects have deeper names and knowledge of these may serve as a key. Other beings have not only deep names, but perhaps also true names, right names and soul names. Know those and you've got the keys to the master lock!
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by lsd » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 13:10

Reyzadren wrote:
Sun 12 Nov 2017, 00:50
Griuskant names usually don't mean anything, and are actually encouraged to have no meaning as to easily identify them as proper nouns/names in a sentence.
It seems to be a new phenomenon, in the real world, since people lost their religion, and states name them in numbers...
elemtilas wrote:
Sun 12 Nov 2017, 03:40
The meaning of a name is thus the person named. The true name of a person is the person; know the one and you'll know the other. Same goes for objects. Thing is name::name is thing. Some objects have deeper names and knowledge of these may serve as a key. Other beings have not only deep names, but perhaps also true names, right names and soul names. Know those and you've got the keys to the master lock!
Leaving all semantics to the real world seems to make names a mnemonics, or a labels of it...
And knowing the real (all the names we can give to him) gives a power over him...
elemtilas wrote:
Sun 12 Nov 2017, 03:40
Daine almost universally name and rename themselves throughout their lives, so your title pretty much nails the screw right on the threads! The name you go by now will probably not be the name you go by in fifty or a hundred years and almost certainly is not the name you went by a century or two ago. Definitely not the name(s) you were given at birth. Close family members will likely be the only ones who continue to use those names throughout your life.
Is there a way to decide new names throughout a lifetime...
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Re: Proper Name, Story of a life...

Post by elemtilas » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 15:16

lsd wrote:
Sun 12 Nov 2017, 13:10
elemtilas wrote:
Sun 12 Nov 2017, 03:40
The meaning of a name is thus the person named. The true name of a person is the person; know the one and you'll know the other. Same goes for objects. Thing is name::name is thing. Some objects have deeper names and knowledge of these may serve as a key. Other beings have not only deep names, but perhaps also true names, right names and soul names. Know those and you've got the keys to the master lock!
Leaving all semantics to the real world seems to make names a mnemonics, or a labels of it...
And knowing the real (all the names we can give to him) gives a power over him...
In the World, some names are indeed little more than mnemonics, labels. There is little power in them beyond that granted by knowledge. Deeper names open ever more cunningly wrought locks. Care must be exercised, indeed great caution, before giving someone those keys!

Giving someone your facename, a nickname that everyone knows & uses, grants no real power. Upon hearing it, you'd feel only the slightest heart tug of recognition. Grant someone a deeper name and you'll be hard pressed to resist any but the silliest or insanest of requests. Play the fool and give some passing love your very soul name and you'll place yourself in thrall forever!
lsd wrote:
Sun 12 Nov 2017, 13:10
elemtilas wrote:
Sun 12 Nov 2017, 03:40
Daine almost universally name and rename themselves throughout their lives, so your title pretty much nails the screw right on the threads! The name you go by now will probably not be the name you go by in fifty or a hundred years and almost certainly is not the name you went by a century or two ago. Definitely not the name(s) you were given at birth. Close family members will likely be the only ones who continue to use those names throughout your life.
Is there a way to decide new names throughout a lifetime...
Names may be assumed for a variety of reasons. New skills or crafts mastered; an adventure undertaken (successfully or otherwise); maturity of personality and sense of inner being; the slaying of a monster; the accomplishment of a great feat of spiritual warfare or the doing of some great deed of compassion of valour. Names may also be given: by friends and family; by the queen; by the folk among whom one is living with for a time; even by enemies.

Even among Men, they recognise some of these realities. For example, there is a great hero among them from long syne and her name was Lena Wolfsbanesdaughter. During the orck wars she rose to prominence as a brave herzog and she called herself Orckslayer. As her fame spread and her victories amassed, even the Orck Kings and their warriors took to calling her Foehammer and Warband Slayer.
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