Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

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Ælfwine
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Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45

Pelsodian is the name of a collection of romance dialects that exist around Lake Balaton. The name "Pelsodian" derives from the Roman name of the lake, Pelso, with the suffix -(d)ian. Due to close contact with Hungarian, and owing to its relative isolation, Pelsodian has innovated a number of features not found in other romlangs, including a generalized agglutinative morphology in the verbs and to a lesser extent, nouns. Pelsodian is often cited by linguists as an example of a mixed language, however this is not without controversy, as many of its unique features can be found in varying forms in other romance languages (i.e. vowel harmony in Murcian, long vowels in Friulan, front rounded vowels in French and Romansh, etc.)

I originally conceived the idea of making an agglutinative romlang more than a year ago, but I haven't put it into practice until now. Much of this romlang had been inspired by Dewrad's Dravian, Reizoukin's Georgian romlang, and Isfendil's Muiralese. Additionally I researched much into Cappadochian Greek — not a romlang yes, but another Indo-European language that had been heavily influenced by an agglutinative language and in a somewhat isolated condition. Additionally I thank Clawgrip for giving me some ideas on how to handle the verbs. So without further adieu, let's get started with the basic phonotactics.

Phonology:
Consonants:
/m n ɲ ŋ**/
/p b t d c ɟ k g/
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/
/f v s z ʃ ʒ h/
/w r l j/

Vowels:
/i iː y yː u uː/
/ɛ ɛː* eː ø øː o oː/
/ɒ a* aː/

*marginal

Allophony (consonants - under construction):

> /j/ after a voiced consonant: [ʝ]
after a voiceless consonant: [ç]
after /m/: [ɲ]
elsewhere: [j]
> /l/ in syllable coda: [ɫ]
elsewhere: [l]
> /m/before a labiodental consonant: [ɱ]
elsewhere: [m]
> /n/ in syllable coda: [ŋ]
elsewhere: [n]
> /s/ after a sonorant: [ts]
before a front vowel: [ʃ]
> /ʃ/ after /ɲ/: [tʃ]
elsewhere: [ʃ]
> /ʒ/after /ɲ/: [dʒ]
elsewhere: [ʒ]

Syllable structure:

(s)(C)(r,l)V(V)(C)(s)

This is where I leave you guys now, I know it is not much to start with, though don't worry I will hopefully update it tomorrow night.

Ambulapsarbatans [ˈɒ̃mblɒpsɒrbɒtɒ̃ts]
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 07:49

Nominal Declension:
Nominative/Accusative:

Note: The exact function of the accusative is being retooled. It may be merged into the nominative or dative cases.

Example:

Nominative: hominēs > ominei > omei

Dative:
The dative case arose from the Vulgar Latin tendency to use the preposition "ad" with the accusative form of the noun to show the dative. In Pelsodian, the preposition became a postposition and was suffixed to the end of the noun, effectively creating a new dative case.

Example:

ad hominem > omine ad > omne ad > oma > omad

Note that the /d/ in "omad" is not pronounced word finally, only internally with additional suffixes.

Genitive:
The genitive affix is a surviving remnant of the Latin case system. It comes from the old Latin genitive plural in the first and second declensions. It was reanalyzed as a general genitive affix after the declension system broke down.

Example:

hominī > omini > omni > om > omor

Locative:
The locative case is an innovation.

Example:

en hominem > omine en > omne en > om en > oman

Articles:
Pelsodian has two articles: the definite and indefinite articles. They are suffixed to the end of the noun, but before the case endings.

The indefinite article is un/ün. It stems from the Vulgar Latin word for one, "una" and "unu." It is indeclinable. As in Romanian, the indefinite article is suffixed to the end of the noun, however in most cases its usage is not necessary.

The definite article is el/al. It stems from Vulgar Latin illa and illu. As in Romanian, the definite article is suffixed to the end of the noun.

Examples:

omine unu > omne unu > om un > omun
omine ellu > omne ellu > om el > omal

A bit on vowel harmony...
Vowel harmony is a productive feature in Pelsodian. Vowel harmony starts at the root and affects all stems.

Back vowels such as a á o ó u ú cause back vowel harmony, and front vowels like e ö ő ü ű cause front vowel harmony. The neutral vowels are é i and í: they are not affected by vowel harmony.

An Example of Nominal Declension:
Using the word "om," meaning "human," we can now decline for all cases, with or without articles:

Without articles:

Code: Select all

		Singular	Plural
Nominative: 	om		omei
Dative: 	omad		omadzei
Genitive: 	omor		omorei
Locative: 	oman		omanei
With articles:

Code: Select all

		Singular	Plural
Nominative: 	omal		omalei
Dative: 	omalad		omaladzei
Genitive: 	omalor		omalorei
Locative: 	omalan		omalanei
I hope you enjoyed this chapter!
Last edited by Ælfwine on Mon 15 Jan 2018, 05:32, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 00:03

It's great to finally get a look at what you've been working on all this time. [:D] One question: What's the orthography like? It seems like it's based on Hungarian, but I don't know for sure.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 01:08

I'm somewhat undecided on whether I want to keep gender in Pelsodian. This is something I've been indecisive on for quite a while, and I wonder what the peanut gallery thinks.

The Pros to doing so mostly involve personal aesthetics (I like the look of manului [man-ul-u-i gloss: hand-DEF.m-NOM.m-pl] a lot better than manalei or whatever), and the fact that no romlang has gotten rid of gender — not even French!

The Cons are the fact that Hungarian doesn't have gender, so why should Pelsodian? Especially if I lob off word final vowels wholesale (although I originally had the nominative keep its final vowel). The agglutinative Cappadochian Greek language has also lost gender through Turkish influence.

Dormouse559 wrote:
Sat 09 Dec 2017, 00:03
It's great to finally get a look at what you've been working on all this time. [:D] One question: What's the orthography like? It seems like it's based on Hungarian, but I don't know for sure.
I haven't really decided too much on an orthography, yet. That's usually the thing I reserve for last. One thing I am thinking of is -ei or -ely for word final /i/ (usually the plural), compare older Romance caestei, Hungarian loan Keszthely [ˈkɛʃteːj], (I think this might have come about by certain irregular plurals ending in -eli). However this probably won't work if I have the plural being mixed with other vowels. (-iei?)
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Frislander » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 13:24

Well there's nothing saying you have to lose gender just because you're in contact with Hungarian. Maybe keep a couple of relics here and there? (Also what's forcing you to use -al for the article rather than -ul?)
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Sun 10 Dec 2017, 00:30

Update to the phonology and nominal declension:

Gender has been reintroduced. The nominative gains a suffixed vowel corresponding to the gender: -u for masculine, -a for feminine and -o for neuter. Outside of the nominative, gender becomes more opaque, though there are some ways to determine the gender of an object noun. Indefinite and definite articles can be used to mark the gender, so I say in Pelsodian "Talk to the hand," and "the hand" in the accusative is manul, we can tell by that -ul that the word for hand is indeed masculine.

I've changed the form of the locative slightly, from <iv> to <vi>, though the locative can vary from <vi> to <bi> (after consonants) or just <i> like in libri book-LOC.

Vowel harmony is still in affect. A word like <ekülüi> [ˈekylyi] horse-DEF.m-NOM.m-PL recieves front vowel harmony when attaching masculine gendered suffixes, for example.

Some ideas for the orthography (att: Dormouse):

ç for /t͡ʃ/
ş for /ʃ/
ţ for /c/
ḑ for /ɟ/
ņ for /ɲ/

Alternatively, one may write <ç ş> as <cz sz> and <ţ ḑ ņ> as <ty gy ny>. I find it a bit annoying that <ç ş ţ> have proper cedillas but not <ḑ ņ>. Maybe its the font, i don't know.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Zekoslav » Sun 10 Dec 2017, 16:00

It does seem to depend on font, but generally, all fonts distinguish cedilla on ç, ş and comma below on other letters. If you want consistency, I suggest using diacritics for either set of sounds, and digraphs for the other.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 15 Dec 2017, 01:26

Ælfwine wrote:
Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45
Pelsodian is the name of a collection of romance dialects that exist around Lake Balaton. The name "Pelsodian" derives from the Roman name of the lake, Pelso, with the suffix -(d)ian. Due to close contact with Hungarian, and owing to its relative isolation, Pelsodian has innovated a number of features not found in other romlangs, including a generalized agglutinative morphology in the verbs and to a lesser extent, nouns. Pelsodian is often cited by linguists as an example of a mixed language, however this is not without controversy, as many of its unique features can be found in varying forms in other romance languages (i.e. vowel harmony in Murcian, long vowels in Friulan, front rounded vowels in French and Romansh, etc.)

I originally conceived the idea of making an agglutinative romlang more than a year ago, but I haven't put it into practice until now. Much of this romlang had been inspired by Dewrad's Dravian, Reizoukin's Georgian romlang, and Isfendil's Muiralese. Additionally I researched much into Cappadochian Greek — not a romlang yes, but another Indo-European language that had been heavily influenced by an agglutinative language and in a somewhat isolated condition. Additionally I thank Clawgrip for giving me some ideas on how to handle the verbs. So without further adieu, let's get started with the basic phonotactics.
Hey, nice to see a thread on this! I've been looking forward to hearing more about this language for a while. I quite like the name, too.
Ælfwine wrote:
Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45
/m n ɲ ŋ**/
Just to clarify, the two asterisks mean that [ŋ] is not an independent phoneme?
Ælfwine wrote:
Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45
/i iː y yː u uː/
/ɛ ɛː* eː ø øː o oː/
/ɒ a* aː/

*marginal
If possible, could you further explain the status of [ɛː a]?
Ælfwine wrote:
Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45
Ambulapsarbatans [ˈɒ̃mblɒpsɒrbɒtɒ̃ts]
What does this mean? Also, is the fact that the <u> isn't pronounced a typo or a feature of the orthography?
Ælfwine wrote:
Thu 07 Dec 2017, 07:49
Nominal Declension:
Very interesting. How are these cases used?
Ælfwine wrote:
Sun 10 Dec 2017, 00:30
Some ideas for the orthography (att: Dormouse):

ç for /t͡ʃ/
ş for /ʃ/
ţ for /c/
ḑ for /ɟ/
ņ for /ɲ/

Alternatively, one may write <ç ş> as <cz sz> and <ţ ḑ ņ> as <ty gy ny>. I find it a bit annoying that <ç ş ţ> have proper cedillas but not <ḑ ņ>. Maybe its the font, i don't know.
I was also curious about the orthography.

So it's:

/m n ɲ ŋ**/ <m n ņ/ny n**>
/p b t d c ɟ k g/ <p b t d ţ/ty ḑ/gy k g>
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/ <? dz ç/cz ?>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ h/ <f v s z ş/sz ? ?>
/w r l j/ <? r l ?>

/i iː y yː u uː/ <i~ei í ü ű u ú>
/ɛ ɛː* eː ø øː o oː/ <e ?* é ö ő o ó>
/ɒ a* aː/ <a ?* á>

I don't mean to say you have to base your orthography 100% on Hungarian, but the use of the cedilla strikes me as somewhat odd, since it's not used in Hungarian. Is Pelsodian the official language of a country? Do you know what the in-world history of the orthography is?
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Fri 15 Dec 2017, 05:26

shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 15 Dec 2017, 01:26
Hey, nice to see a thread on this! I've been looking forward to hearing more about this language for a while. I quite like the name, too.
Thanks a lot Shimo! I at first didn't like the name, but it is growing on me.
shimobaatar wrote:Just to clarify, the two asterisks mean that [ŋ] is not an independent phoneme?
Yes.
shimobaatar wrote:If possible, could you further explain the status of [ɛː a]?
[ɛː a] are marginal phonemes that are probably only found in loans, irregular or dialectal words.
shimobaatar wrote:What does this mean? Also, is the fact that the <u> isn't pronounced a typo or a feature of the orthography?
This is something Clawgrip thought up. It may not be in the final product, but more of an ideal of what I want the language to somewhat look like:

ambul-aps-arb-at-ans
walk-POT-FUT-3-PL

Not entirely sure why the plural form is what it is, but I like it. I'm thinking of applying Hungarianesque lenition, which would make it Ambulapsarbazans. I believe the /u/ would be elided in fast speech, similar to how it is reduced or eliminated in most modern romance languages.
shimobaatar wrote:Very interesting. How are these cases used?
More or less~

The nominative case is used for marking the subject of the verb. It usually establishes the gender of the nouns in a sentence and the topic.

The accusative case is used for marking the direct object of a verb. This stems directly from Vulgar Latin subject nouns without any modifications.

The dative case is used for marking the indirect object of a verb, as in Latin Maria Jacobo potum dedit (Mary gave Jacob a drink).

The genitive case modifies another noun, usually in relation to ownership or possession.

The partitive case is used for marking partialness, like in some of the children.

The locative case marks where something takes place.
shimobaatar wrote:I was also curious about the orthography.

So it's:

/m n ɲ ŋ**/ <m n ņ/ny n**>
/p b t d c ɟ k g/ <p b t d ţ/ty ḑ/gy k g>
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/ <? dz ç/cz ?>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ h/ <f v s z ş/sz ? ?>
/w r l j/ <? r l ?>

/i iː y yː u uː/ <i~ei í ü ű u ú>
/ɛ ɛː* eː ø øː o oː/ <e ?* é ö ő o ó>
/ɒ a* aː/ <a ?* á>

I don't mean to say you have to base your orthography 100% on Hungarian, but the use of the cedilla strikes me as somewhat odd, since it's not used in Hungarian. Is Pelsodian the official language of a country? Do you know what the in-world history of the orthography is?
Pelsodian coexists with Hungarian in the country of Hungary. So it's likely that Hungarian orthography would be initially used (compare Wymsorys). Perhaps though a different orthography might arise.

I haven't really finalized anything, I am mostly going to see how sentences will look once I start translating things, and experiment with different orthographies. For now I might create an "academic" orthography based on Hungarian, which will be below:

/m n ɲ (ŋ)/ <m n ny ng>
/p b t d c ɟ k g/ <p b t d ky gy k g>
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/ <c dz cs dzs>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ ɦ/ <f v sz z s zs h>
/r l j/ <r l j>

/i iː y yː u uː/ <i í ü ű u ú>
/ɛ (ɛː) eː ø øː o oː/ <e è é ö ő o ó>
/ɒ (a) aː/ <a à á>
Zekoslav wrote:
Sun 10 Dec 2017, 16:00
It does seem to depend on font, but generally, all fonts distinguish cedilla on ç, ş and comma below on other letters. If you want consistency, I suggest using diacritics for either set of sounds, and digraphs for the other.
That is true. I am not particularly a fan of the Hungarian orthography when applied to Romance, I preferably want something cleaner like in the examples I've already given. We'll see.

In the next following week or so I hopefully will give you guys an update. I might decide to make the language closer to Gallo-Romance than Eastern Romance, or perhaps somewhat of a mixture, which will affect sound changes and all that. I can easily get the areal phonemes /c ɟ/ by palatalizing /k g/ before /a/ like in Frulian, and /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ before /e/ and /i/. /t͡s and dz/ on the otherhand will arise as it did in Romanian — /t/ and /d/ before /e/ and /i/. Intervocalic lenition gives us /z/ while I haven't decided on an origin for the phonemes /ʃ ʒ/ yet. Front rounded vowels on the other hand may become phonemic due to loan words and vowel harmony, though I have considered a French path of fronting stressed /o/ and monophthongizing diphthongs such as /ue/. Long vowels arise through compensatory processes after syncope. Tell me what you guys think in the comments.

Code: Select all

	1.SG		2.SG		3.SG		1.PL		2.PL		3.PL
IND.PRE	-∅		-as		-at		-on		-asan		-atan
IND.PRT	-ot		-ast		-att		-ont		-asant		-atant
IND.FUT	-ar		-aras		-arat		-aron		-arasan		-aratan
Last edited by Ælfwine on Sun 14 Jan 2018, 07:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Zythros Jubi » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 16:44

Well, after nearly a thousand years of coexistence, Romanian (in Transylvania, Banat and Partium etc.) didn't become so strange under agglutinative influence; instead, it forms part of the Balkan Sprachbund. On the other hand, Slovak doesn't seem to have exotic traits, just an average Slavic language (albeit with West, East and South Slavic features combined).
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by shimobaatar » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 04:05

Zythros Jubi wrote:
Tue 19 Dec 2017, 16:44
Well, after nearly a thousand years of coexistence, Romanian (in Transylvania, Banat and Partium etc.) didn't become so strange under agglutinative influence; instead, it forms part of the Balkan Sprachbund. On the other hand, Slovak doesn't seem to have exotic traits, just an average Slavic language (albeit with West, East and South Slavic features combined).
What's the point of a post like this? Are you telling Ælfwine to abandon this project because the hypothetical language they're making doesn't already exist in the real world? Isn't that likely why they're making it?
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by shimobaatar » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 04:16

Ælfwine wrote:
Fri 15 Dec 2017, 05:26
In the next following week or so I hopefully will give you guys an update. I might decide to make the language closer to Gallo-Romance than Eastern Romance, or perhaps somewhat of a mixture, which will affect sound changes and all that. I can easily get the areal phonemes /c ɟ/ by palatalizing /k g/ before /a/ like in Frulian, and /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ before /e/ and /i/. /t͡s and dz/ on the otherhand will arise as it did in Romanian — /t/ and /d/ before /e/ and /i/. Intervocalic lenition gives us /z/ while I haven't decided on an origin for the phonemes /ʃ ʒ/ yet. Front rounded vowels on the other hand may become phonemic due to loan words and vowel harmony, though I have considered a French path of fronting stressed /o/ and monophthongizing diphthongs such as /ue/. Long vowels arise through compensatory processes after syncope. Tell me what you guys think in the comments.
Thanks for all the answers.

I think giving it features of both Gallo- and Eastern Romance would be cool.

How would you phonemicize /c ɟ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ t͡s d͡z/? Your ideas for them work, but those sound like they'd just be creating allophones. As for /ʃ ʒ/, maybe you could palatalize /s z/?

As for the front rounded vowels, I think I'd go with a combination of brining them in through loanwords, fronting certain vowels/diphthongs, and introducing vowel harmony. That is to say, I'd use all of the ideas you put forward.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Zythros Jubi » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 04:30

I just meant that this project may not seem so "realistic"; for a situation like Cappadocian Greek, extensive language contact and bilingualism is needed, and its speakers comprise a minority in local population. What's more, topography should be taken into consideration.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Mon 15 Jan 2018, 00:18

shimobaatar wrote:
Wed 20 Dec 2017, 04:16
Thanks for all the answers.

I think giving it features of both Gallo- and Eastern Romance would be cool.

How would you phonemicize /c ɟ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ t͡s d͡z/? Your ideas for them work, but those sound like they'd just be creating allophones. As for /ʃ ʒ/, maybe you could palatalize /s z/?

As for the front rounded vowels, I think I'd go with a combination of brining them in through loanwords, fronting certain vowels/diphthongs, and introducing vowel harmony. That is to say, I'd use all of the ideas you put forward.
I think I might keep /c ɟ/ as marginal allophones made phonemic through loan words, although I don't know. Palatalizing /s z/ is definitely an option, perhaps from former geminates or before /j/?
Zythros Jubi wrote:
Wed 20 Dec 2017, 04:30
I just meant that this project may not seem so "realistic"; for a situation like Cappadocian Greek, extensive language contact and bilingualism is needed, and its speakers comprise a minority in local population. What's more, topography should be taken into consideration.
The history of this language is that the Romans of Keszthely have always been surrounded by speakers of agglutinating languages, like under Avar rule until the 900s, or Hungarian rule for much of the 1st millennium. Indeed, it would be odd to me if they hadn't developed agglutination. Nonetheless, everything in this conlang is experimental as I am trying to get the right "feel" for the language and I may radically alter things in the future. The agglutination right now is a very mild quality anyway.

I've been working on and off on verbs in Pelsodian, although I was stalling for a while as I didn't know what I wanted. So far, I've gotten the indicative down. I plan for the verbs to at least conjugate for the indicative, subjunctive, and imperative moods. I may incorporate things such as co-verbs to replace auxiliary verbs and that fun stuff later.

Consistent with Chuvash and later Hungarian influence, Pelsodian had reanalyzed a lot of grammar in an agglutinative fashion, separating affixes into single grammatical categories and then gluing them together haphazardly like macaroni art. For the regularization of verbal affixes, /t/ was preferred for the preterite marker, this arose out of analogy through forms such as *fabulasti "you spoke" and was probably retained under Hungarian influence. The phoneme /n/ was selected as the basic plural marker. The basic ordering of affixes is the person is usually followed by the number, however the tense can vary.

The epithetic vowel is related to the class of the verb, for example verbs whose stems had a thematic /e/ inserted an epithetic /e/ between impossible consonant clusters. The class of the verb itself has been reanalyzed through whether the root takes back vowel suffixes, front vowel suffixes, or both. This is mainly due to vowel harmony having reanalyzed a lot of former -er verbs as -ar verbs and vice versa, though -ir verbs have been mainly left untouched.

So let's take a look at the three major conjugation classes, shall we?

A-conjugation class. This class of verbs exclusively take back vowel suffixes, and their thematic vowel is /a/:

Code: Select all

	1.SG		2.SG		3.SG		1.PL		2.PL		3.PL
IND.PRE	-∅		-as		-at		-on		-asan		-atan
IND.PRT	-ot		-ast		-att		-ont		-asant		-atant
IND.FUT	-ar		-aras		-arat		-aron		-arasan		-aratan
Verbs that decline like this include ambl- "to walk;" kant-, "to sing;" and mandzs- "to eat"

E-Conjugation class. This class of verbs exclusively take front vowel suffixes, and their thematic vowel is /e/:

Code: Select all

	1.SG		2.SG		3.SG		1.PL		2.PL		3.PL
IND.PRE	-∅		-es		-et		-ön		-esen		-eten
IND.PRT	-öt		-est		-ett		-önt		-esent		-etent
IND.FUT	-er		-eres		-eret		-erön		-eresen		-ereten
Verbs that decline like this include prend- "to take;" tem- "to fear;" and perd- "to lose."

I-Conjugation class.
These types of verbs can take either front or back vowel suffixes, and their thematic vowel is /i/:

Code: Select all

	1.SG		2.SG		3.SG		1.PL		2.PL		3.PL
IND.PRE	-∅		-is		-it		-on/-ön		-isin		-itin
IND.PRT	-ot/-öt		-ist		-itt		-ont/-önt	-isint		-itint
IND.FUT	-ir		-iris		-irit		-iron/-irön	-irisin		-iritin
Verbs that decline like this include dorm-, "to sleep;" ven- "to come;" and kap- "to know."

So there is a small taste on what I've come up with as to Pelsodian verbs. I hope you enjoyed this chapter!
Last edited by Ælfwine on Sat 03 Feb 2018, 03:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by shimobaatar » Thu 18 Jan 2018, 23:06

Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 15 Jan 2018, 00:18
I think I might keep /c ɟ/ as marginal allophones made phonemic through loan words, although I don't know. Palatalizing /s z/ is definitely an option, perhaps from former geminates or before /j/?
I like that solution for the palatals, personally. I would definitely palatalize /s z/ before /j/. Is gemination phonemic in Pelsodian? Looking at the third person singular preterite indicative suffixes below, it appears it might be. If that's the case, then I wouldn't palatalize geminate /s z/, unless you're OK with some phonemes not having geminate equivalents, or if gemination ends up not being phonemic. Or maybe you could just have /ʃː ʒː/ as the geminate equivalents of /s z/?
Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 15 Jan 2018, 00:18
I've been working on and off on verbs in Pelsodian, although I was stalling for a while as I didn't know what I wanted. So far, I've gotten the indicative down. I plan for the verbs to at least conjugate for the indicative, subjunctive, and imperative moods. I may incorporate things such as co-verbs to replace auxiliary verbs and that fun stuff later.
So far so good! Looking forward to seeing what else you come up with.
Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 15 Jan 2018, 00:18
Consistent with Chuvash and later Hungarian influence,
Sorry if I'm overlooking something, but when did the Chuvash influence happen?
Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 15 Jan 2018, 00:18
The epithetic vowel is related to the class of the verb, for example verbs whose stems had a thematic /e/ inserted an epithetic /e/ between impossible consonant clusters. The class of the verb itself has been reanalyzed through whether the root takes back vowel suffixes, front vowel suffixes, or both. This is mainly due to vowel harmony having reanalyzed a lot of former -er verbs as -ar verbs and vice versa, though -ir verbs have been mainly left untouched.
What clusters are allowed? If the root ends in an illegal cluster, would the thematic vowel be inserted word-finally for the first person singular present indicative form, since the suffix for that is -Ø?

For example, is the cluster -mbl allowed word-finally? If not, would "I walk" be "ambla"?

Also, is Pelsodian pro-drop?
Edit: A very small nitpick… the formatting for the i-conjugation table is a little off for the third person plural future indicative suffix.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Sat 03 Feb 2018, 03:22

shimobaatar wrote:
Thu 18 Jan 2018, 23:06
I like that solution for the palatals, personally. I would definitely palatalize /s z/ before /j/. Is gemination phonemic in Pelsodian? Looking at the third person singular preterite indicative suffixes below, it appears it might be. If that's the case, then I wouldn't palatalize geminate /s z/, unless you're OK with some phonemes not having geminate equivalents, or if gemination ends up not being phonemic. Or maybe you could just have /ʃː ʒː/ as the geminate equivalents of /s z/?
Gemination is indeed phonemic. And that's a good point. No, I think I'll keep geminate /ss/ and /ʃʃ/ different for now.
So far so good! Looking forward to seeing what else you come up with.
Thank you! [:D]
Sorry if I'm overlooking something, but when did the Chuvash influence happen?
Mostly during Pelsodian's formulative years (around 600 to 900). I've decided that the Pannonian Avars were ethnically Chuvash. However I'm not quite sure how they would impact the language beyond making it agglutinative. Any ideas?
What clusters are allowed? If the root ends in an illegal cluster, would the thematic vowel be inserted word-finally for the first person singular present indicative form, since the suffix for that is -Ø?

For example, is the cluster -mbl allowed word-finally? If not, would "I walk" be "ambla"?
I haven't decided which clusters are allowed (I am still working on sound shifts), but I was thinking that the /l/ in ambl would simply be syllabic. Similarly Pelsodian has numerous syllabic final r's due to vowel loss.
Also, is Pelsodian pro-drop?
It's on it's way. Like French it still might prefer egy ambl "I walk" but it may be much more common to simply skip the pronoun since the bare form of "ambl" is only shared with the first person.
Edit: A very small nitpick… the formatting for the i-conjugation table is a little off for the third person plural future indicative suffix.
Okay, thanks for letting me know.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Mon 19 Mar 2018, 09:20

I apologize I haven't update recently. I've hit a bit of a snag in developing this language, mostly due to a lack of good source material.

The major change I am making is to the language name. Instead of naming it after Lacus Pelso, I am going to name it after the city of Keszthely, as it is a common theme amongst Romance languages to be named after the city of origin (for example, Venetian from Venice, Vegliot from Veglia, Ragusan from Ragusa, etc.) So far, i believe this would be Castellian in English, although I might use a different derivational suffix in order to distinguish it from Castilian. I am mostly doing this in order to accentuate the fact that this language is mostly spoken in the city of Keszthely.

At the moment I am reading various books, trying to find any clues on the development of Pannonian Romance in the area. So far the only real thing I have determined is similarities with Dalmatian and Venetian, such as the lack of palatalization before /e/ (as in Dalmatian) and a vocabulary mostly similar to that of Venetian and Istriot (as in the name caestei.) Topographical features don't really tell me much more, except that Pannonian Romance likes to feminize rivers (the river Drava from Dravus) and the etymology of the inscription BONOSA still remains a mystery to me.

Researching into the language of the Pannonian Avars has yielded similar lackluster results. I'm mostly going off the assumption that the language was an Old Turkic one, perhaps close to Old Bulgarian. So it probably had rounding harmony, and the vowel /ɯ/. But beyond that I am at a total loss. There just isn't enough information for either the Romance language of the area OR the Avar language which might've influenced it. I'm going to continue searching every nook and cranny in the meantime as I don't want to abandon this project.
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