Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

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Ælfwine
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Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45

Pelsodian is the name of a collection of romance dialects that exist around Lake Balaton. The name "Pelsodian" derives from the Roman name of the lake, Pelso, with the suffix -(d)ian. Due to close contact with Hungarian, and owing to its relative isolation, Pelsodian has innovated a number of features not found in other romlangs, including a generalized agglutinative morphology in the verbs and to a lesser extent, nouns. Pelsodian is often cited by linguists as an example of a mixed language, however this is not without controversy, as many of its unique features can be found in varying forms in other romance languages (i.e. vowel harmony in Murcian, long vowels in Friulan, front rounded vowels in French and Romansh, etc.)

I originally conceived the idea of making an agglutinative romlang more than a year ago, but I haven't put it into practice until now. Much of this romlang had been inspired by Dewrad's Dravian, Reizoukin's Georgian romlang, and Isfendil's Muiralese. Additionally I researched much into Cappadochian Greek — not a romlang yes, but another Indo-European language that had been heavily influenced by an agglutinative language and in a somewhat isolated condition. Additionally I thank Clawgrip for giving me some ideas on how to handle the verbs. So without further adieu, let's get started with the basic phonotactics.

Phonology:
Consonants:
/m n ɲ ŋ**/
/p b t d c ɟ k g/
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/
/f v s z ʃ ʒ h/
/w r l j/

Vowels:
/i iː y yː u uː/
/ɛ ɛː* eː ø øː o oː/
/ɒ a* aː/

*marginal

Allophony (consonants - under construction):

> /j/ after a voiced consonant: [ʝ]
after a voiceless consonant: [ç]
after /m/: [ɲ]
elsewhere: [j]
> /l/ in syllable coda: [ɫ]
elsewhere: [l]
> /m/before a labiodental consonant: [ɱ]
elsewhere: [m]
> /n/ in syllable coda: [ŋ]
elsewhere: [n]
> /s/ after a sonorant: [ts]
before a front vowel: [ʃ]
> /ʃ/ after /ɲ/: [tʃ]
elsewhere: [ʃ]
> /ʒ/after /ɲ/: [dʒ]
elsewhere: [ʒ]

Syllable structure:

(s)(C)(r,l)V(V)(C)(s)

This is where I leave you guys now, I know it is not much to start with, though don't worry I will hopefully update it tomorrow night.

Ambulapsarbatans [ˈɒ̃mblɒpsɒrbɒtɒ̃ts]
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Ælfwine
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 07:49

Nominal Declension:
Nominative/Accusative:
Like in most romance languages, the nominative and accusative cases merged early on. One difference remained between the two however: the accusative case retained -s in the plural while the nominative and all other cases retained or innovated /i/ by analogy.

Example:

Nominative: amīcī > amici
Accusative: amīcōs > amicos

Nominative: hominēs > omine > om > omei
Accusative: hominēs > omine > om > omos

Dative:
The dative case arose from the Vulgar Latin tendency to use the preposition "ad" with the accusative form of the noun to show the dative. In Pelsodian, the preposition became a postposition and was suffixed to the end of the noun, effectively creating a new dative case.

Example:

ad hominem > omine ad > omne ad > om'a > oma(d)

Note that the /d/ in "omad" is not pronounced word finally, only internally with additional suffixes. (Think French liaison)

Genitive:
The genitive affix is a surviving remnant of the Latin case system. It comes from the old Latin genitive plural in the first and second declensions. It was reanalyzed as a general genitive affix after the declension system broke down.

Example:
hominī > omini > omni > om > omor
amīcōrum > amicoru > amicor > amigor > amigör

Locative and Partitive:
The partitive and locative cases are innovations. They originate, as they also had in Aragonese, from Latin inde and ibi, becoming the clitics -en and -iv respectively.

Example:

inde hominem > omine ende > omne ende > om en > omen
ibī casam > casa ibi > cas iv > casiv

Articles:
Pelsodian has two articles: the definite and indefinite articles. They are suffixed to the end of the noun, but before the case endings.

The indefinite article is un/ün. It stems from the Vulgar Latin word for one, "una" and "unu." It is indeclinable. As in Romanian, the indefinite article is suffixed to the end of the noun, however in most cases its usage is not necessary. (Subject to change.)

The definite article is el/al. It stems from Vulgar Latin illa and illu. As in Romanian, the definite article is suffixed to the end of the noun.

Examples:

omine unu > omne unu > om un > omun
omine ellu > omne ellu > om el > omal

A bit on vowel harmony...
Vowel harmony is a productive feature in Pelsodian. Vowel harmony starts at the root and affects all stems.

Back vowels such as a á o ó u ú cause back vowel harmony, and front vowels like e ö ő ü ű cause front vowel harmony. The neutral vowels are é i and í: they are not affected by vowel harmony.

An Example of Nominal Declension:
Using the word "om," meaning "human," we can now decline for all six cases, with or without articles:

Case: Singular | Plural
Nominative: om | omei
Accusative: om | omos
Dative: omad | omadzei
Genitive: omor | omorei
Locative: omiv | omivei
Partitive: oman | omanei

With articles:

Singular | Plural
Nominative: omal | omalei
Accusative: omal | omalos
Dative: omalad | omaladzei
Genitive: omalor | omalorei
Locative: omaliv | omalivei
Partitive: omalan | omalanei

I hope you enjoyed this chapter!
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 00:03

It's great to finally get a look at what you've been working on all this time. [:D] One question: What's the orthography like? It seems like it's based on Hungarian, but I don't know for sure.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 01:08

I'm somewhat undecided on whether I want to keep gender in Pelsodian. This is something I've been indecisive on for quite a while, and I wonder what the peanut gallery thinks.

The Pros to doing so mostly involve personal aesthetics (I like the look of manului [man-ul-u-i gloss: hand-DEF.m-NOM.m-pl] a lot better than manalei or whatever), and the fact that no romlang has gotten rid of gender — not even French!

The Cons are the fact that Hungarian doesn't have gender, so why should Pelsodian? Especially if I lob off word final vowels wholesale (although I originally had the nominative keep its final vowel). The agglutinative Cappadochian Greek language has also lost gender through Turkish influence.

Dormouse559 wrote:
Sat 09 Dec 2017, 00:03
It's great to finally get a look at what you've been working on all this time. [:D] One question: What's the orthography like? It seems like it's based on Hungarian, but I don't know for sure.
I haven't really decided too much on an orthography, yet. That's usually the thing I reserve for last. One thing I am thinking of is -ei or -ely for word final /i/ (usually the plural), compare older Romance caestei, Hungarian loan Keszthely [ˈkɛʃteːj], (I think this might have come about by certain irregular plurals ending in -eli). However this probably won't work if I have the plural being mixed with other vowels. (-iei?)
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Frislander » Sat 09 Dec 2017, 13:24

Well there's nothing saying you have to lose gender just because you're in contact with Hungarian. Maybe keep a couple of relics here and there? (Also what's forcing you to use -al for the article rather than -ul?)
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Sun 10 Dec 2017, 00:30

Update to the phonology and nominal declension:

Gender has been reintroduced. The nominative gains a suffixed vowel corresponding to the gender: -u for masculine, -a for feminine and -o for neuter. Outside of the nominative, gender becomes more opaque, though there are some ways to determine the gender of an object noun. Indefinite and definite articles can be used to mark the gender, so I say in Pelsodian "Talk to the hand," and "the hand" in the accusative is manul, we can tell by that -ul that the word for hand is indeed masculine.

I've changed the form of the locative slightly, from <iv> to <vi>, though the locative can vary from <vi> to <bi> (after consonants) or just <i> like in libri book-LOC.

Vowel harmony is still in affect. A word like <ekülüi> [ˈekylyi] horse-DEF.m-NOM.m-PL recieves front vowel harmony when attaching masculine gendered suffixes, for example.

Some ideas for the orthography (att: Dormouse):

ç for /t͡ʃ/
ş for /ʃ/
ţ for /c/
ḑ for /ɟ/
ņ for /ɲ/

Alternatively, one may write <ç ş> as <cz sz> and <ţ ḑ ņ> as <ty gy ny>. I find it a bit annoying that <ç ş ţ> have proper cedillas but not <ḑ ņ>. Maybe its the font, i don't know.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Zekoslav » Sun 10 Dec 2017, 16:00

It does seem to depend on font, but generally, all fonts distinguish cedilla on ç, ş and comma below on other letters. If you want consistency, I suggest using diacritics for either set of sounds, and digraphs for the other.
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 15 Dec 2017, 01:26

Ælfwine wrote:
Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45
Pelsodian is the name of a collection of romance dialects that exist around Lake Balaton. The name "Pelsodian" derives from the Roman name of the lake, Pelso, with the suffix -(d)ian. Due to close contact with Hungarian, and owing to its relative isolation, Pelsodian has innovated a number of features not found in other romlangs, including a generalized agglutinative morphology in the verbs and to a lesser extent, nouns. Pelsodian is often cited by linguists as an example of a mixed language, however this is not without controversy, as many of its unique features can be found in varying forms in other romance languages (i.e. vowel harmony in Murcian, long vowels in Friulan, front rounded vowels in French and Romansh, etc.)

I originally conceived the idea of making an agglutinative romlang more than a year ago, but I haven't put it into practice until now. Much of this romlang had been inspired by Dewrad's Dravian, Reizoukin's Georgian romlang, and Isfendil's Muiralese. Additionally I researched much into Cappadochian Greek — not a romlang yes, but another Indo-European language that had been heavily influenced by an agglutinative language and in a somewhat isolated condition. Additionally I thank Clawgrip for giving me some ideas on how to handle the verbs. So without further adieu, let's get started with the basic phonotactics.
Hey, nice to see a thread on this! I've been looking forward to hearing more about this language for a while. I quite like the name, too.
Ælfwine wrote:
Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45
/m n ɲ ŋ**/
Just to clarify, the two asterisks mean that [ŋ] is not an independent phoneme?
Ælfwine wrote:
Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45
/i iː y yː u uː/
/ɛ ɛː* eː ø øː o oː/
/ɒ a* aː/

*marginal
If possible, could you further explain the status of [ɛː a]?
Ælfwine wrote:
Tue 05 Dec 2017, 06:45
Ambulapsarbatans [ˈɒ̃mblɒpsɒrbɒtɒ̃ts]
What does this mean? Also, is the fact that the <u> isn't pronounced a typo or a feature of the orthography?
Ælfwine wrote:
Thu 07 Dec 2017, 07:49
Nominal Declension:
Very interesting. How are these cases used?
Ælfwine wrote:
Sun 10 Dec 2017, 00:30
Some ideas for the orthography (att: Dormouse):

ç for /t͡ʃ/
ş for /ʃ/
ţ for /c/
ḑ for /ɟ/
ņ for /ɲ/

Alternatively, one may write <ç ş> as <cz sz> and <ţ ḑ ņ> as <ty gy ny>. I find it a bit annoying that <ç ş ţ> have proper cedillas but not <ḑ ņ>. Maybe its the font, i don't know.
I was also curious about the orthography.

So it's:

/m n ɲ ŋ**/ <m n ņ/ny n**>
/p b t d c ɟ k g/ <p b t d ţ/ty ḑ/gy k g>
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/ <? dz ç/cz ?>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ h/ <f v s z ş/sz ? ?>
/w r l j/ <? r l ?>

/i iː y yː u uː/ <i~ei í ü ű u ú>
/ɛ ɛː* eː ø øː o oː/ <e ?* é ö ő o ó>
/ɒ a* aː/ <a ?* á>

I don't mean to say you have to base your orthography 100% on Hungarian, but the use of the cedilla strikes me as somewhat odd, since it's not used in Hungarian. Is Pelsodian the official language of a country? Do you know what the in-world history of the orthography is?
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Re: Pelsodian, a Hungarian romlang

Post by Ælfwine » Fri 15 Dec 2017, 05:26

shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 15 Dec 2017, 01:26
Hey, nice to see a thread on this! I've been looking forward to hearing more about this language for a while. I quite like the name, too.
Thanks a lot Shimo! I at first didn't like the name, but it is growing on me.
shimobaatar wrote:Just to clarify, the two asterisks mean that [ŋ] is not an independent phoneme?
Yes.
shimobaatar wrote:If possible, could you further explain the status of [ɛː a]?
[ɛː a] are marginal phonemes that are probably only found in loans, irregular or dialectal words.
shimobaatar wrote:What does this mean? Also, is the fact that the <u> isn't pronounced a typo or a feature of the orthography?
This is something Clawgrip thought up. It may not be in the final product, but more of an ideal of what I want the language to somewhat look like:

ambul-aps-arb-at-ans
walk-POT-FUT-3-PL

Not entirely sure why the plural form is what it is, but I like it. I'm thinking of applying Hungarianesque lenition, which would make it Ambulapsarbazans. I believe the /u/ would be elided in fast speech, similar to how it is reduced or eliminated in most modern romance languages.
shimobaatar wrote:Very interesting. How are these cases used?
More or less~

The nominative case is used for marking the subject of the verb. It usually establishes the gender of the nouns in a sentence and the topic.

The accusative case is used for marking the direct object of a verb. This stems directly from Vulgar Latin subject nouns without any modifications.

The dative case is used for marking the indirect object of a verb, as in Latin Maria Jacobo potum dedit (Mary gave Jacob a drink).

The genitive case modifies another noun, usually in relation to ownership or possession.

The partitive case is used for marking partialness, like in some of the children.

The locative case marks where something takes place.
shimobaatar wrote:I was also curious about the orthography.

So it's:

/m n ɲ ŋ**/ <m n ņ/ny n**>
/p b t d c ɟ k g/ <p b t d ţ/ty ḑ/gy k g>
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/ <? dz ç/cz ?>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ h/ <f v s z ş/sz ? ?>
/w r l j/ <? r l ?>

/i iː y yː u uː/ <i~ei í ü ű u ú>
/ɛ ɛː* eː ø øː o oː/ <e ?* é ö ő o ó>
/ɒ a* aː/ <a ?* á>

I don't mean to say you have to base your orthography 100% on Hungarian, but the use of the cedilla strikes me as somewhat odd, since it's not used in Hungarian. Is Pelsodian the official language of a country? Do you know what the in-world history of the orthography is?
Pelsodian coexists with Hungarian in the country of Hungary. So it's likely that Hungarian orthography would be initially used (compare Wymsorys). Perhaps though a different orthography might arise.

I haven't really finalized anything, I am mostly going to see how sentences will look once I start translating things, and experiment with different orthographies. For now I might create an "academic" orthography based on Hungarian, which will be below:

/m n ɲ (ŋ)/ <m n ny ng>
/p b t d c ɟ k g/ <p b t d ky gy k g>
/ts dz tʃ dʒ/ <c dz cs dzs>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ ɦ/ <f v sz z s zs h>
/r l j/ <r l j>

/i iː y yː u uː/ <i í ü ű u ú>
/ɛ (ɛː) eː ø øː o oː/ <e è é ö ő o ó>
/ɒ (a) aː/ <a à á>
Zekoslav wrote:
Sun 10 Dec 2017, 16:00
It does seem to depend on font, but generally, all fonts distinguish cedilla on ç, ş and comma below on other letters. If you want consistency, I suggest using diacritics for either set of sounds, and digraphs for the other.
That is true. I am not particularly a fan of the Hungarian orthography when applied to Romance, I preferably want something cleaner like in the examples I've already given. We'll see.

In the next following week or so I hopefully will give you guys an update. I might decide to make the language closer to Gallo-Romance than Eastern Romance, or perhaps somewhat of a mixture, which will affect sound changes and all that. I can easily get the areal phonemes /c ɟ/ by palatalizing /k g/ before /a/ like in Frulian, and /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ before /e/ and /i/. /t͡s and dz/ on the otherhand will arise as it did in Romanian — /t/ and /d/ before /e/ and /i/. Intervocalic lenition gives us /z/ while I haven't decided on an origin for the phonemes /ʃ ʒ/ yet. Front rounded vowels on the other hand may become phonemic due to loan words and vowel harmony, though I have considered a French path of fronting stressed /o/ and monophthongizing diphthongs such as /ue/. Long vowels arise through compensatory processes after syncope. Tell me what you guys think in the comments.
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