New Weekly Indo European Collablang

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
Post Reply
Cavaliers327
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 14 Mar 2017, 23:21

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » Tue 13 Feb 2018, 04:48

Sorry about that, I will make sure to give everyone a notice about when voting ends next time onward. This project has been really fun and thought-provoking. Once again, I'll make sure to warn you guys about when voting closes.

In the meantime, anyone interested can post a list of loanwords that would make sense for this language to borrow.

Areas Include

Religion (this is a big one)

Trade (big one)

Metals

Agriculture (tools etc)

In fact, I have a lot of work to do myself , so I won't be able to get to this until maybe Thursday.
vo1dwalk3r
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon 17 Mar 2014, 22:37
Location: dʰǵʰémi
Contact:

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by vo1dwalk3r » Wed 14 Feb 2018, 00:37

I've also been adding more declensions to my spreadsheet.
Spoiler:
Please tell me if you want the sound changes differently than I've written them here!

bʰ dʰ ǵʰ gʰ gʷʰ > pʰ tʰ ḱʰ kʰ kʷʰ
ḱʰ ḱ ǵ > tʃʰ tʃ dʒ
kʷʰ kʷ gʷ > kʰ k g
e > a / _h₂, h₂_
e > o / _h₃, h₃_
PH > Pʰ
SH > S̄
H > ∅
Pʰ…Pʰ > P…Pʰ
S̩ > Sǝ
pʰ tʰ tʃʰ kʰ > f θ ʃ x
sʃ ʃs > ʃʃ / V_V
sʃ ʃs > ʃ
y w > dʑ g / _[glide]
tʃy dʒy ʃy ʒy > tɕ dʑ ɕ ʑ
tʃ dʒ ʃ ʒ > tʂ dʐ ʂ ʐ
tʂ dʐ tɕ dʑ > ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ / _S
a > ǝ
á ā́ > o ō
é ḗ > i ī
e ē > a ai
o ō > a au
u > o
ǝ̄ > a
iy īy > ī
tʂ dʐ ʂ ʐ > tɕ dʑ ɕ ʑ / _i

I've marked stress with an accute accent although it is completely regular. Here's the system I made, but please say if you want something different. Heavy syllables are any syllable with a coda, long vowel or diphthong. The first syllable is stressed unless it is not heavy and the second syllable is heavy, in which case the second will be stressed.

owís íʂwaus-ka (The Sheep and the Horses)

owái yasmī́ glā́nō ni ist, so íʂwams dartʂt. so grāum woʂám waʂád; so míʂmǝ forám; so tɕimánmǝ ṓtʂo farád. owís ikáifyas wáukad: “tɕimánmǝ spitɕáu íʂwams-ka ódʐati, tɕīr mai ǝ́xnotar”. íʂwaus to wáukand: “ʂlóθi, awái! tod spítɕamas, nǝ́smī ǝ́xnotor tɕīr: tɕimáu, potís, sai ógyas glā́nō xírmam wístram wapt, owífyas to glā́nō ni ásti. tod tʂáʂlowōs owís ə́ʐrom fogád.

rītʂ díʐwas-ka (The King and the God)

rītʂ ast; so nǝpótlos. rītʂ sū́nom glǝ́nta. tóɕa ɕíutarmǝ praitʂt: "sū́nos mai ʐnā́yataud!" ɕíutaur tam rī́ʐmǝ wáukad: "yodʐáswa dáʑwom wíronam". úpa rītʂ dáʑwom wíronam sásala nu dáʑwom yǝ́dʐata. "ʂlóθi mai, ptar wárona!" dáʑwos wíronas diwís kmǝ́to gāt. "kid wáilsi?" "sū́nom wáilmi." "tod ásto", wáukad láukos dáʑwos wáronas. no ritʂ pótnī sū́nom dʐádʐana.

In a hypothetical orthography:

Owis Išwauska

Owai yasmī glānō ni ist, so išwams darčt. So grāum wošam wašad; so mišme foram; so ćimanme ōčo farad. Owis ikaifyas waukad: “Ćimanme spićau išwamska oǰati, ćīr mai ehnotar”. Išwaus to waukand: “Šlóþi, awai! tod spićamas, nesmī ehnotor ćīr: ćimau, potis, sai ogyas glānō hirmam wistram wapt, owifyas to glānō ni asti. Tod čašlowōs owis ežrom fogad.

Rīč Diźwaska

Rīč ast; so nepotlos. Rīč sūnom glenta. toća śiutarme praičt: "Sūnos mai žnāyataud!" Śiutaur tam rīžme waukad: "Yoǰaswa daźwom Wironam". Upa rīč daźwom Wironam sasala nu daźwom yeǰata. "Šloþi mai, ptar Warona!" Daźwos Wironas diwis kmeto gāt. "Kid wailsi?" "Sūnom wailmi." "Tod asto", waukad laukos daźwos Waronas. No rič potnī sūnom ǰaǰana.
Our phonological inventory is:

/m n/
/p b t d tʂ dʐ tɕ dʑ k g/
/f θ s ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ x/
/l r j w/

/i ī u ū/
/ǝ o ō/
/a ā/

I imagine /a o/ are probably around /æ ɔ/ to preserve maximal distinction.

There are some details of the noun declension that we're gonna need to vote on, since the PIE reconstructions aren't perfect. For example, the genitive plural ending is reconstructed variously as *-ōm and *-oHom. I'm using the former, which gives -aum and -ōm but if we used the latter we would get -awam and ōom (> -ōm?) (unstressed and stressed forms, respectively). There also seems to be no clear indication whether or not the locative singular had an *-i or not (I've included both forms in my tables) so we'll have to vote on whether we use it or not.

Also, something I just noticed—should we collapse or not collapse vowel+glide+vowel vs. diphthong+glide? I've been doing this, so -awam as above as opposed to -auam. This would have an effect on stress placement. We could go the other way and collapse both into diphthong+glide or keep them distinct.
Cavaliers327
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 14 Mar 2017, 23:21

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » Wed 14 Feb 2018, 02:15

Yeah, I like your idea for the changes to the multiple vowel and glide sequences. We can vote on it later with realistic options. We also need to deal with clusters like θs t͡ʃθs & tx. Any suggestions with how to do how to deal with it? We could vote to keep tx, but θs t͡ʃθs are nearly unpronounceable.
vo1dwalk3r
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon 17 Mar 2014, 22:37
Location: dʰǵʰémi
Contact:

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by vo1dwalk3r » Wed 14 Feb 2018, 02:53

On one hand, I agree that they are a bit ridiculous. But at the same time I think it would be cool to have these crazy clusters in the ancient form and see what they become in the daughter languages. I guess that's another thing to vote on.
User avatar
Vlürch
sinic
sinic
Posts: 215
Joined: Wed 09 Mar 2016, 21:19
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Vlürch » Wed 14 Feb 2018, 14:15

I prefer the gliding option and agree with vo1dwalk3r about the crazy clusters remaining for now simply because the longer they remain, the better it is for "Caucasianisation". Like, how about certain clusters giving rise to ejectives somewhere down the line? Something simple like unconditional /pt tt kt θs t͡ʃθ/ > /pʼ tʼ kʼ sʼ t͡sʼ/ would probably be too boring and could lead to all kinds of problems later on, but something like that happening eventually due to centuries of influence from all the neighbouring Caucasian languages might be interesting and realistic enough?
Cavaliers327
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 14 Mar 2017, 23:21

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 04:05

26 . Vowel Glide Sequences (What happens ?) *** Thanks vo1dwalk3r for the suggestions ****

a. Should we collapse or not collapse vowel+glide+vowel vs. diphthong+glide? so -awam as above as opposed to -auam. This would have an effect on stress placement.
b.We could go the other way and collapse both into diphthong+glide
c.or keep them distinct.


27. Developing New Cases
a. Yes (many more cases)
b. Yes ( a few more)
c. No
d. Let's lose some more

28. Suffixaufnahme : Consider it? Links below
a. Yes
b. N

29. Crazy consonant clusters (θs t͡ʃθs & tx) : How do we deal with them? ( May lead to ejectives later on)

a. Keep tx, but do something with the other two kinds(Vote another option below as well)
b. Epenthesis
c. Hardening ( θs > ts, something like that we'll vote on what it'll be later)
d. Do nothing (yet)




30. Loanwords ( Where do we borrow the most) (Can vote for multiple ones)
a. Trade
b. Religion
c. Metallurgy
d. Agriculture
e. Societal terms (chief, leader, etc)


Voting ends at GMT 15:00 on Saturday

Links

http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mkrach ... fnahme.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffixaufnahme
Last edited by Cavaliers327 on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:05, edited 1 time in total.
shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 10187
Joined: Fri 12 Jul 2013, 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 05:55

Wouldn't these be #26-30?

21/26: a
22/27: a b
23/28: a
24/29: d
25/30: a b c d e
User avatar
Frislander
runic
runic
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 17:47
Location: The North

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Frislander » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 12:53

26 a
27 b
28 a
29 a (c)
30 a c d
Last edited by Frislander on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 13:12, edited 1 time in total.
Cavaliers327
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 14 Mar 2017, 23:21

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 22:28

26. a
27. a
28. a
29. c
30. a b c d e
vo1dwalk3r
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon 17 Mar 2014, 22:37
Location: dʰǵʰémi
Contact:

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by vo1dwalk3r » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 23:08

26. a
27. b
28. a
29. d
30. a b c d e
Cavaliers327
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 14 Mar 2017, 23:21

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 16:09

I'm extending the voting till the end of the day GMT. More people need to vote
User avatar
Vlürch
sinic
sinic
Posts: 215
Joined: Wed 09 Mar 2016, 21:19
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Vlürch » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 17:28

26. A
27. B; develop agentive and pegative cases
28. A
29. D
30. A B C D E
Yrusia
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 18:58

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Yrusia » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 20:13

26. a
27. b
28. a
29. c
30. a d e
idov
sinic
sinic
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon 13 Apr 2015, 20:02

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by idov » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 21:36

26. b
27. d
28. b
29. c
30. a
The accusative of <emo> is <eminem>. :lat:
Cavaliers327
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 14 Mar 2017, 23:21

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » Sun 18 Feb 2018, 02:50

Results
Spoiler:

26. Vowel Glide Sequences (What happens ?)
Spoiler:
a. We collapse or not collapse vowel+glide+vowel vs. diphthong+glide? So -awam as above as opposed to -auam. This would have an effect on stress placement.

27. Developing New Cases
Spoiler:
b. Yes, a few more


28. Suffixaufnahme : Consider it?
Spoiler:
a. Yes

29. Crazy consonant clusters (θs t͡ʃθs & tx) : How do we deal with them? ( May lead to ejectives later on)
Spoiler:
c. Hardening ( θs > ts, something like that we'll vote on what it'll be later)


30. Loanwords ( Where do we borrow the most) (Can vote for multiple ones) (TOP 3 )
Spoiler:
A. Trade C. Metallurgy D.Agriculture , religion to a certain extent for realism but not as much as the top 3
Questions: Extras ( give me your suggestions?)

X. What cases should logically develop next in this language?

X2. Give me your suggestions for the "hardening of fricatives in those clusters?

X3. Loanwords - What phonological processes should loanwords undergo before borrowed into the language?



How different is it from PIE now?
Cavaliers327
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 14 Mar 2017, 23:21

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » Mon 19 Feb 2018, 17:47

Here is the link to the list of loanwords I have compiled.


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rZc ... OdaQc/edit

Questions
Spoiler:
31. Borrow these loanwords now?
a. Yes
b. Next round

32. Word Order: While Free Word Order is possible as of now, the default word order is SOV
a. Change that to SVO
b. Keep it

33. Do we borrow those loanwords with our phonemes or with the new phonemes from the other languages?
a. Our phonemes and also have them go through sound change as they enter the language
b. Our phonemes, but no other sound changes
c. Lets welcome the new phonemes

34. Unstressed vowels in the final syllable of words
a. Still pronounced
b. If schwas then delete , if not reduce to schwa
c. Delete all of them.

35. Do we leave Eastern Mesopotamia
a. Yes, it's about time
b. Let's stick around for one more round
c. Let's stay longer

Edit : Will compile answers Saturday noon. I have a lot of work this week.
Last edited by Cavaliers327 on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 06:48, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Frislander
runic
runic
Posts: 2804
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 17:47
Location: The North

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Frislander » Mon 19 Feb 2018, 21:27

31 a
32 b
33 c - (what vo1dwalk3r says below)
34 b
35 a

Also note the weird transliteration of the Akkadian, because that's something to bear in mind when we borrow these words.
Last edited by Frislander on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 14:53, edited 1 time in total.
Cavaliers327
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 14 Mar 2017, 23:21

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by Cavaliers327 » Mon 19 Feb 2018, 23:38

31. a
32. b
33. c - (vo1dwalk3r's suggestion below)
34. b
35. a
Last edited by Cavaliers327 on Tue 20 Feb 2018, 04:55, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 337
Joined: Tue 28 Jul 2015, 17:43

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by ixals » Tue 20 Feb 2018, 00:01

31. a
32. b
33. b
34. b
35. b
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :fra:, :por:, :tur:

Цiски a Central Slavic conlang
Noattȯč a future German conlang [on hold]
Tungōnis Vīdīnōs Proto-Germanic goes Romance [on hold]
vo1dwalk3r
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon 17 Mar 2014, 22:37
Location: dʰǵʰémi
Contact:

Re: New Weekly Indo European Collablang

Post by vo1dwalk3r » Tue 20 Feb 2018, 04:40

31. a
32. b
33. c—I suggest we at least borrow the ejectives t’ k’ from Akkadian (we don't have to but it prepares us for the Caucasus, haha). We could also borrow ts dz ts’ or reduce them to s z t’/s’ or something like that. I definitely thing we should also borrow e ē for words borrowed after the vowel shift. I think we should also have them go through at least some of the sound changes; perhaps a very small number before the lenition of aspirated plosives, then more before the vowel shift and some after the vowel shift. It would be interesting being able to see older and younger loans.
34. a
35. a

Also, I've tried to do a bit more of the declension system, which I've documented in a new and neater document here. I've tried to make it as clear as possible so we can see the patterns between nouns.

Also dropping word-final schwas might be problematic with words like podmǝ...
Post Reply