europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Wed 18 Jul 2018, 23:37

EUROPAN

Alo, mi createi uma lingua a ki mi ha da la nom 'europano'. Dat is a mix af al europano linguas, e la wordes is determinee matematicli. Somi pensa dat it is someding as esperanto, mas it is no - dat is multi minos metodico dan esperanto. Ma mas facil de comprend, auminos pro la spikis af europano linguas...

Por ter una certo similaritee na nome, mi pensei ki mi devia elect un outre nom: mi dachte erst af europidjin, la problem is, ausser el inglishe spicale welt fili sa no wat dat signifi. Den in euroblabla, europex, eurosimple et eurospik. Wat yu woud elect? Ou algi ha un otre idee?


ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

Hi, i created a new language i gave the name 'europano'. Its a mix of all europano languges, and the words are determind mathematicly. Some peeple think it is something like esperanto, but it is not - its much less methodic than esperanto. But its eesier to understand, at leest for speekers of europano languages...

Since the name is similar to esperanto, i'm looking for a new name for it: first i thaut of europidjin, but the problem is that outside the inglishe speeking world not menny peeple no wat it meens, then i thaut of euroblabla, europex, eurosimple and eurospik. Wat would yu choos? Or does ennybody has another idea?
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3116
Joined: Sat 22 Nov 2014, 04:48

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by elemtilas » Thu 19 Jul 2018, 00:29

Zé do Rock wrote:
Wed 18 Jul 2018, 23:37
EUROPAN

Alo, mi createi uma lingua a ki mi ha da la nom 'europano'. Dat is a mix af al europano linguas, e la wordes is determinee matematicli. Somi pensa dat it is someding as esperanto, mas it is no - dat is multi minos metodico dan esperanto. Ma mas facil de comprend, auminos pro la spikis af europano linguas...

Por ter una certo similaritee na nome, mi pensei ki mi devia elect un outre nom: mi dachte erst af europidjin, la problem is, ausser el inglishe spicale welt fili sa no wat dat signifi. Den in euroblabla, europex, eurosimple et eurospik. Wat yu woud elect? Ou algi ha un otre idee?


ENGLISH HOUSE STILE

Hi, i created a new language i gave the name 'europano'. Its a mix of all europano languges, and the words are determind mathematicly. Some peeple think it is something like esperanto, but it is not - its much less methodic than esperanto. But its eesier to understand, at leest for speekers of europano languages...

Since the name is similar to esperanto, i'm looking for a new name for it: first i thaut of europidjin, but the problem is that outside the inglishe speeking world not menny peeple no wat it meens, then i thaut of euroblabla, europex, eurosimple and eurospik. Wat would yu choos? Or does ennybody has another idea?
It reminds me of Europanto. I think the people that see similarities with Esperanto are on to something: both, after all, propose some admixture of words from many different European languages! Apart from Europanto, it reminds me more of Interlingua, at least orthographically!

So tell about the grammar; how the language works and so forth. Do you have any longer texts available?
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Thu 19 Jul 2018, 09:36

elemtilas wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018, 00:29
So tell about the grammar; how the language works and so forth. Do you have any longer texts available?
EUROPAN

Europanto ha no fixo gramatik, no fixo vocabulari, no fix ortografie. Europano ha dat al. Na contrar af esperanto, lu ha non obligator endus pro la diverso gramatico clases. La diferens af Interlingua is ki dat hav non nereglar ortografie, e den Interlingua is a substracto de romanico linguas, durlik europan inclui - auminu teoricli - al europano linguas. La romanico linguas et inglish is la linguas plu fortli representee, mas el otre germanico linguas is oso vidable, e lu ha multi plu slavski mots ki pro exemplo esperanto.

A peculiare fenomen af europan is la vocal-consonante-harmonie. La mouste palavras fini in vocal, ma lus perde ta vocal si nenhuma consonante folo. 'El europano problemas', mas 'el europan instituciones'. Lu is as la franciano 'liaison', mas oni se lu oso na scrivee lingua.

Mi hab a blog dat is scribee in braziliano portugaliano, deutsh, english et europan (na momento lu is "abandonee"). Hir yu can see a text: http://zedorock.net/blog/?p=1690#more-1690. Tu can vid oso el archiv, ma na startu la text is scrit na 5 linguas dat i spik, e lus converge tu europan. Ai mult aventuras in Africa, Asia (inclusive Norde Korea) et otre continentes.

La gramatik is basiclik as in inglish, ai meme do verbos co nereglare pasee: "mi was" e "mi had". E, clar, oni sei no "I didnt have money", oni sei "Mi had no moni".

PS. Ta mesag is no scribet in complet europan, ma Cuasi complet... nu na letra U, sun nu arive na letra Z...


INGLISH HOUSE STILE

Europanto has no fix grammar, no fix vocabbulary, no fix spelling. Europan has all that. Unlike esperanto, it dusnt hav compulsory endings for the varius gramatical classes. The difrence to Interlingua is that it dusnt hav an ireggular orthografy, and then Interlingua is a substract of romanic languages, wile europan includes - at leest theoreticly - all europano languages. The romanic languages and inglish ar the languages that ar most strongly represented, but the uther germanic languages ar also visible, and thare ar much mor slavski words than for instance esperanto.

A peculiar fenommenon of europan is the vowel-consonant harmony. Most words end in a vowel, but they lose this vowel is no consonant folloes. 'El europano problemas', but 'el europan instituciones'. It is like the franciano 'liaison', but yu see it in the written language, too.

I hav a blog that is written in braziliano portugaliano, deutsh, english et europan (sumhow "abandond", at the moment). Heer yu can see a text: http://zedorock.net/blog/?p=1690#more-1690. Yu can also see the archive, but at the beginning the text is written in the 5 languages i speek, and they converge graddualy to europan. Thare ar menny adventures in Africa, Asia (including Norde Korea) and uther continents.

The grammar is basicly as in inglish, thare ar eeven two verbs with an ireggular past: "mi was" and "mi had". And of corse, yu dont say "I didnt have money", yu say "Mi had no moni".

PS. This message is not written in compleet europan, but almost compleet (in the europano blok abuv)... we'r at the letter U, but soon we'l arive at the letter Z...
User avatar
Xing
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5311
Joined: Sun 22 Aug 2010, 17:46

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Xing » Thu 19 Jul 2018, 15:27

Is there a full grammar and/or dictionary of Europan (or whatever the language is called?)
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Thu 19 Jul 2018, 18:22

Xing wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018, 15:27
Is there a full grammar and/or dictionary of Europan (or whatever the language is called?)
EUROPA

Encora no, auminu nixu complet et online. Wat mi hav is a regla list - bes a clar ordre - in mai computor, et a vord list, co some miles vordes - oso in mai computor. Ma lu is non in alfabetik ordre, is in ordre de frecuens... Si tu interesee, mi can sende lu a tu, ma mi can no put lu online in ta disordrizee form...

Ma tai cuestion is a bon razon tu starte co dat... Mi va scrive la reglas hir, copi lus tu a fail in mai computor, in el endu mi hav a faile co toto reglas e can put lu online.

HOUSE STIL

Not yet, at leest not compleet and online. Wat i hav is a list with rules - without a cleer order - in my computer, and a word list, with sum thousands of words - also in my computer. But it is not in alfabetical order, it is in order of freequency... If yu'r intrested, i cand send it to yu, but i cant put it online in this messy form...

But your question is a good reeson to start with it... I'l rite down the rules heer, coppy them to a file in my computer, at the end i hav a file with all rules and can put it online.


EUROP

EL ALFABET

Nu va starte con el alfabet, ki hav a neu ordre e neu letra nomes. Nus ali sa la situacion: oni spel a disabee vord or un oune nome na telefon, oni sei S e la person in el otre endu du line cuestion: "Wat, F as in France or S as in Sudan?". Or oni sei N e la personi cuestion: "Wat, M as in Mexico or N as in Naijiria?" - etsetera. So multi sei alfabetos as Alfa, Bravo, Charlie, etc. Ma dat nomes is relativli long, so hir is mai sugestion, co la neu ordre, dat is organizee bai son tipe:

A /a/ E /e/ I /i/ O /o/ U /u/ Y /yau/ W /wau/

B /ba/ D /de/ G /gi/ P /po/ T /tu/ C /kau/ K /kei/

J /Za/ V /ve/ Z /zi/ SH /So/ F /fu/ S /sau/

H /ha/ L /le/ M /mi/ N /no/ R /ru/

Q /auk/ X /auks/

Cuikli: a-e-i-o-u-yau-wau, ba-de-gi-po-tu-cau-kei, ja-ve-zi-sho-fu-sau, ha-le-mi-no-ru, auk-auks

In facto mi volou no considera SH as un letra, ma so mi can evita la shoku du letra F (ki vou bi /fo/) co la numero 4. Generali dat vou no bi problematik, ma somwen oni da un code co letras e numeros, et oni musau sei ki dat is a numer or a letra. Normali dat is no problem, ma canau bin a problem wen a piloti discomprende la cod...

La letra X is non uzat in europan, ma somwen oni nesesita lu pro oune nomes.

E nixi hav un opinion abaut a neu nome pro la lingua?


HS

THE ALFABET

We'l start with the alfabet, wich has a new order and new letter names. We all no that kind of situation: yu spel an unnoen name or an own name at the fone, yu say S and the person in the uther end of the line asks: "Wat, F as in France or S as in Sudan?" Or yu say N and the person asks: "Wat, M as in Mexico or N as in Naijiria?" - and so on. So menny say alfabets like Alfa, Bravo, Charlie, etc. But those names ar rellativly long, so heer is my so

Nu va starte con el alfabet, ki hav a neu ordre e neu letra nomes. Nus ali sa la situacion: oni spel a disabee vord or un oune nome na telefon, oni sei S e la person in el otre endu du line cuestion: "Wat, F as in France or S as in Sudan?". Or oni sei N e la personi cuestion: "Wat, M as in Mexico or N as in Naijiria?" - etsetera. So multi sei alfabetos as Alfa, Bravo, Charlie, etc. Ma dat nomes is relativli long, so hir is mai suggestion, with the new order, wich is organized by tipe of sound:

A /a/ E /e/ I /i/ O /o/ U /u/ Y /yau/ W /wau/

B /ba/ D /de/ G /gi/ P /po/ T /tu/ C /kau/ K /kei/

J /Za/ V /ve/ Z /zi/ SH /So/ F /fu/ S /sau/

H /ha/ L /le/ M /mi/ N /no/ R /ru/

Q /auk/ X /auks/

Quikly: a-e-i-o-u-yau-wau, ba-de-gi-po-tu-cau-kei, ja-ve-zi-sho-fu-sau, ha-le-mi-no-ru, auk-auks

Actualy i didnt want to considder SH as a letter, but this way i can avoid the colision of the letter F (that would be /fo/) with the number 4. Genraly that wouldnt be realy a problem, but sumtimes one givs a code with letters and numbers, and the person would hav to specify if it is a number or a letter. Usualy eeven if yu forgot it, it wouldnt caus much trubble, but it could be a problem if a pilot for instance misunderstands a code...

The letter X isnt used in europan, but sumtimes we need it for sum own names.

And nobody has an opinnion about a new name for the language?
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3116
Joined: Sat 22 Nov 2014, 04:48

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by elemtilas » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 23:09

Zé do Rock wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018, 09:36
EUROPAN

...

INGLISH HOUSE STILE
What's the second conlang called?

I'm sure you're not actually referring to stiles, whether part of an English house or otherwise. Pro tip: stick with the Europan. It's much more legible than the badly composed English. I get about four words in to the "stile" and find it not even worth the effort of even trying to read what I'm guessing must be a translation of the Europan. I'm not really sure what your point is there. [:(]
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Sun 22 Jul 2018, 18:41

elemtilas wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 23:09
Zé do Rock wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018, 09:36
EUROPAN

...

INGLISH HOUSE STILE
What's the second conlang called?

I'm sure you're not actually referring to stiles, whether part of an English house or otherwise. Pro tip: stick with the Europan. It's much more legible than the badly composed English. I get about four words in to the "stile" and find it not even worth the effort of even trying to read what I'm guessing must be a translation of the Europan. I'm not really sure what your point is there. [:(]
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Sun 22 Jul 2018, 18:42

elemtilas wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 23:09

What's the second conlang called?

I'm sure you're not actually referring to stiles, whether part of an English house or otherwise. Pro tip: stick with the Europan. It's much more legible than the badly composed English. I get about four words in to the "stile" and find it not even worth the effort of even trying to read what I'm guessing must be a translation of the Europan. I'm not really sure what your point is there. [:(]
EURO

La House Stile was consevee tu bi la haus stilo de TESS, The English Spelling Society, wat signifi ki lu shalau bi la manera como nu comunik e scrive nashe websait. Tu mostra ki nu predica non acua e drinke vin. La 4 changus was la changus ki la mouste membris aprovou, among dosenas propozee changus. Nu can supone ki ta changus canau bin aprovee bai a majoritee du populacion, durlik otre changus havau a super mini chans - si lu was non aprovee bai pople dat aprov un ortografie reform, como lu canau bin aprovee bai la populacion, vo plus o minu la halfe pople vole nixe reform?

Nau mi starte co RITE, Redusing Iregularitys in Tradicional English, a nome propozee bai Doug Everingham, un ex-Salude Ministro in Australia. Ma la tema de ta trad is europan, no RITE. RITE is solo mai modo de tradui la texto tu inglish, wen algi comprende non europano so wel. Lu oso a colectivo sistema ma hav ai solo a dosena partisipis. Lu soluh clarli plus ortografico problemas, mas is plu far du tradicional ortografie, meme si lu bene lezable, coze lu bazat in inglish ortografico modelos.

Nu fazou a sondag among pople ki nu sa, e plus o minus 80% considerou la House Stile super izi tu comprend, 20% izi. Some poco pople ha sei lu super difisil, ma lorsk el otre cuestionu was si lis laike reform o non, e lis ha sei lis detest ortografie reform, nu ha conclui ki wat lis ha sei was rader un exprecion de su detestu contra ortografie reforma ki reale lezu difisilitee.

Main inglish is far du perfeccion, ma lorske mi ha nowen audi ki pople had problema tu comprende lu, til i venou intu linguistico forumes - non in TESS, vo lis frecuentli cuotou mi et el otris sabou no de hu la cuotacion venou, wat lis shalau si main inglishe vou bi so mau - e mi hav audi lu de pople ki simpatize no con eni ortografie reforma, mi supone ki dat ha plu relacion con el idee af ortografie reforma ki co main inglish. E yu mus no le lu, yu can stei en el europano blok.


RITE

The House Stile was desined to be the House Stile of TESS, The English Spelling Society, that is it should be the way we comunicate and rite our website. To sho that we dont preech water and drink wine. The 4 changes wer the changes the majority of members aproved, amung duzzens of proposed changes. We can supose that thees changes could be aproved by a majority of peeple in the society at large, wile uther changes would hav a very little chance - if it wasnt aproved by peeple who aprove of reform, how could it be aproved by the population, ware mor or less haf the peeple dont want enny sort of reform?

Now i'm starting with RITE, Redusing Iregularitys in Tradicional English, a name proposed by Doug Everingham, an ex-Helth Minnister in Australia. But the subject of this thred is Europan, not RITE. RITE is just the way i use to translate it into inglish, in case sum-one dusnt understand europano that wel. It is also a colectiv sistem but thare wer only a duzzen participants. It solvs cleerly mor spelling problems, but is further away from tradicional spelling, altho it is stil quite reedable, becaus it is based on inglishe spelling patterns.

We made a survay amung peeple we no, and around 80% found the House Stile very eezy to understand, 20% eezy. Thare wer a cupple of cases of peeple who sed it is very dificult, but since the uther question was wether they like or not spelling reform and they sed they hate it holehartedly, we thaut that saying it is dificult is rather an expression of thare hatred towards spelling reform than real reeding dificulty.

My inglish is far from being perfect, but since i'v nevver herd that peeple had trubble understanding it, until i came to linguistic forums - not in TESS, ware i was offen quoted and nobody new ware the quotation came from, wat they should if my inglishe was so bad - and i herd it from peeple who dont seem very simpathetic with enny sort of spelling reform, i hav to supose that it has mor to do with the idea of spelling reform than with my inglish. And u dont hav to reed it, u can stik to europan.
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3116
Joined: Sat 22 Nov 2014, 04:48

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by elemtilas » Mon 23 Jul 2018, 02:15

Zé do Rock wrote:
Sun 22 Jul 2018, 18:42
elemtilas wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 23:09
I'm sure you're not actually referring to stiles, whether part of an English house or otherwise. Pro tip: stick with the Europan. It's much more legible than the badly composed English. I get about four words in to the "stile" and find it not even worth the effort of even trying to read what I'm guessing must be a translation of the Europan. I'm not really sure what your point is there. [:(]
RITE
TL;DR, sorry.

I guess you're not referring to rites either...
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Sun 29 Jul 2018, 15:52

EU

Nu starte co la valus du letras:

A - /a/ or /A/

E - /e/ or /E/

I - /i/ or /I/

O - /o/ or /O/

U - /u/ or /U/

Y - /j/

W - /w/

Mouste linguas ki mi sa diferensize solo inter clozet /e/ et openet /E/, clozet /o/ et openet /O/, A/I/U is pronunset /a/i/u/. Lis can pronuns E's et O's as la vord is pronunset in su oune lingua, e si la vord existe non in su lingua et in nixe lingua ki lis sa, lis can pronuns as lis laik. In ta cazo mi personali pronuns netonik e final E's et O's clozee, in otre cazos openee, mas oni can faz as oni laik.

Inglish e som otre germanishe linguas uza la laxe vocales /A/, /I/ et /U/ oso, pro la corto vocales. Yu can fa lu, o no fa lu. Yu can pronunse 'sit' as /sit/ or as /sIt/.

Y e W is uzee na vord startu or inter vocales, non in el endu de diftongos: wai, wawau.

B - /b/

D - /d/

G - /g/

P - /p/

T - /t/

E nau veni la maxi complicato part, la C, K e X:

/k/ is scrivee co K pre E, I e na vord endu, si no co C.

/ts/ is scrivee co C pre E, I. Pre otre vocales, si ai tale cazos, co TS.

/si/ + vocal is scrivee ci + vocal: pacient, accion.

/ks/ is scrivee con X, exept in /ksi/ + vocal, dat is scrivee 'cci' + vocal.

/tS/ is scrivee co CH.

Dat al is bene similar to wat inglishe fa, exepto dat is reglar. Clar, is rada complicato pro a construit lingua, mas encor is lernable, e da la lingua a naturale simu.

E vamos continuh:


J - /Z/

V - /v/

Z - /z/

SH - /S/

F - /f/

S - /s/

H - /h/

L - /l/

M - /m/

N - /n/

R - /r/


S e Z na vord endu can la do bi pronunset as /s/ o /z/. Pople can pronunse lu as lis fas in su oune linguas, lu depende si is el end af a fraz, o pre voiset o nevoisee consonant.

In a vord endu H is silent, lu solo indica ki la laste vocal is tonik.

R can bi pronunset as na lingua du spiki. MA: britis e deutshis mus pronuns AR con a "reale" R, lis can no sei 'bar' as /ba:/ or /bA:/, coze dat vou bi scrivee 'ba'. E britis mus pronunse 'ber' e 'dor' auminus as /bE@/ e /do@/ (or in el USano modus, con a "reale" R), non as /bE:/ e /do:/, lorske nebritis comprendau ta vordes as 'be' e 'do'. Dat is important, coze si a briti cri "Lets run away, a /bE/ is coming!", nixi va ren awei, lorske 'be' in europano signifik el animali ki da la vul pro nashe vestores.

Brazilis shalau trai la portugaliano, francian o deutshe R, or auminu som as /X/, el unicu ki lis shalau no faz is pronunsing lu na braziliano modus, co /h/, coze dat is un otre letra...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


We start with the values of the letters:

A - /a/ or /A/

E - /e/ or /E/

I - /i/ or /I/

O - /o/ or /O/

U - /u/ or /U/

Y - /j/

W - /w/

Most languages i know differentiate only between closed /e/ and open /E/, closed /o/ and open /O/, A/I/U are pronounced /a/i/u/. People can pronounce E's and O's as the word is pronounced in their own language, and if the word doesnt exist in their language and in no language they know, they can pronounce it as they like. In this case i pronounce unstressd and final E's and O's closed, in other cases open, but you can do it as you like.

English and some other germanic languages use the lax vowels /A/, /I/ and /U/, too, for the short vowels. You can do it, or you can leave it. You can pronounce 'sit' as /sit/ or as /sIt/.

Y and W are used at the beginning of words and between vowels, not at the end of difthongs: wai (why), wawau (dog).

B - /b/

D - /d/

G - /g/

P - /p/

T - /t/

And now we come to the most complicated part, the C, K and X:

/k/ is spelled with K befor E, I and at the word end, otherwise with C.

/ts/ is spelled with C befor E, I. Befor other vowels, if there are such cases, with TS.

/si/ + vowel is spelled ci + vowel: pacient, accion.

/ks/ is spelled with X, except in /ksi/ + vowel, which is spelled 'cci' + vowel.

/tS/ is spelled with CH.

All this is quite similar to what english does, except that it is regular, with no exceptions. Of course it is rather complicated for an artificial language, still it is learnable, and gives the language a natural look.

And lets go on:


J - /Z/

V - /v/

Z - /z/

SH - /S/

F - /f/

S - /s/

H - /h/

L - /l/

M - /m/

N - /n/

R - /r/


S and Z at the word end can both be pronounced as /s/ or /z/. People can pronounce it as they do in their own languages, depending if it is the end of a sentence, or befor a voiced or unvoiced consonant.

At the end of a word H is silent, it just shows that the last vowel is stressed.

R can be pronounced as in the speakers language. BUT: brits and germans have to pronounce AR with a "real" /r/, they cant say 'bar' as /ba:/, because that would be spelled 'ba'. And britons have to pronounce "ber" and "dor" at least as /bE@/ and /do@/ (or the american way, with a "real" R), not as /bE:/ and /do:/, since non britons would understand these words as 'be' and 'do'. This is important, because if a briton shouts "Lets run away, a /bE/ is coming!", nobody will run away, since 'be' /bE/ (or /be/) in europano means 'sheep'.

Brazilians should try the portuguese, french or german R, or at least some sort of /X/, but they shouldnt pronounce it the brazilian way, with /h/, since thats another letter...
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Sun 29 Jul 2018, 15:54

elemtilas wrote:
Mon 23 Jul 2018, 02:15
Zé do Rock wrote:
Sun 22 Jul 2018, 18:42
elemtilas wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 23:09
I'm sure you're not actually referring to stiles, whether part of an English house or otherwise. Pro tip: stick with the Europan. It's much more legible than the badly composed English. I get about four words in to the "stile" and find it not even worth the effort of even trying to read what I'm guessing must be a translation of the Europan. I'm not really sure what your point is there. [:(]
RITE
TL;DR, sorry.

I guess you're not referring to rites either...
TL? DR? Anyway: RITE - Redusing Iregularitys in Tradicional English. Dont spel right, spel RITE!
User avatar
elemtilas
runic
runic
Posts: 3116
Joined: Sat 22 Nov 2014, 04:48

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by elemtilas » Mon 30 Jul 2018, 02:36

Zé do Rock wrote:
Sun 29 Jul 2018, 15:54
elemtilas wrote:
Mon 23 Jul 2018, 02:15
Zé do Rock wrote:
Sun 22 Jul 2018, 18:42
elemtilas wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 23:09
I'm sure you're not actually referring to stiles, whether part of an English house or otherwise. Pro tip: stick with the Europan. It's much more legible than the badly composed English. I get about four words in to the "stile" and find it not even worth the effort of even trying to read what I'm guessing must be a translation of the Europan. I'm not really sure what your point is there. [:(]
RITE
TL;DR, sorry.

I guess you're not referring to rites either...
TL? DR? Anyway: RITE - Redusing Iregularitys in Tradicional English. Dont spel right, spel RITE!
Well, a rite and a right are two different things, for a start. It's one of the fundamental mistakes of the spelling reform crowd: once a reader gets beyond the initial phases of learning to read English, English words are no longer a matter of "strings of letters". Words & phrases become much more akin to logograms. Words on a page become tiny icons or blocks, semantic units in a manner of speaking. When you mess around with these icons, you destroy ease of understanding and rapidity of comprehension because now I've got to stop and puzzle out what it is your think you're saying, rather than just absorb what you're saying.

TL;DR = If you can't effectively communicate your point, and rather, refuse to communicate your point in an effective manner after a rather broad hint to do so, any further communications you make are vanishingly likely to be read or even opened.
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Mon 30 Jul 2018, 16:05

elemtilas wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 02:36
Well, a rite and a right are two different things, for a start. It's one of the fundamental mistakes of the spelling reform crowd: once a reader gets beyond the initial phases of learning to read English, English words are no longer a matter of "strings of letters". Words & phrases become much more akin to logograms. Words on a page become tiny icons or blocks, semantic units in a manner of speaking. When you mess around with these icons, you destroy ease of understanding and rapidity of comprehension because now I've got to stop and puzzle out what it is your think you're saying, rather than just absorb what you're saying.

TL;DR = If you can't effectively communicate your point, and rather, refuse to communicate your point in an effective manner after a rather broad hint to do so, any further communications you make are vanishingly likely to be read or even opened.
RE

Regard un diccionar inglish-une ôtre lingua: vas ver qui casi todas las palabras inglishe tenen 3, 4 o mesmo 10 traducciones en otras linguas. Eu num sei u ki tu tem en tu meza, mas en min eu tenu um mauz, ki nu inglishe pode ser um animau o um aparelhu pra controlar u computador. Ich hab aine tasse, aba dise "cup" könnte auch ain wettbewerb sain, wi "The World Cup". I hav a glass, and this can meen a contaner for liquids or a sort of mateerial. E je hai un "lighter", ki a peutetre un seul sens, ma 'light' peut etre en franciano "lumier", "legee", "clar". Ay brazilis qui din qui inglish é muy pobre, afinal en portugaliano se di "jogar futebol", "tocar piano" y "brincar com as criansas na areia", 3 verbos pra los cuales en inglishe solo ay uno: play. To play football, to play piano, and to play with the children on the sand. Tu tem augun problem em saber de cuau 'play' eu ta falandu? Sicha nich. Or in deutsh: ay 'das' com article, com pronon demonstratif, com pronon relatif e com conjunccion, mai com conjunccion il est ecri 'dass'. Si augen sugerice ki si scrivece 'that' pru demonstrativu, 'thatt' pru relativu i 'dhat' pra conjunciaum, tu diria "Tu ta locu? Alle fersteen es wi's is, wozu das endan?" And if inglishe had 'that' for demonstrativ and rellativ but 'thatt' for the conjunction and sumbody suggested simplifying 'thatt' to 'that' (as they wanted to do in the german reform), u'd say "Then peeple woant understand u!" Donc je croi ke lés anti-reformeur son pa pour ou contre plus ou moin diférenciacion, se kil veul è ke tou rest com il è.

O porquee no scrivimos 'table' pra la mueble y 'tabel' prun painel con una list - todas otras lingua ki eu conessu tem palavra separada prus dois, em franciano 'table' i 'tableau', em deutshe 'tafel' i 'tabelle', etc. Hast du shon dafür gekempft, das baide andas gesriben werden? I bet u didnt.

And then thees homofones doant caus enny problem in an (oral) conversation, ware u cant see how words ar speld, so if thay doant caus enny problems in the spoken language, wi should thay caus problems in the ritten language?

Keske tu veu dir avec "refuse to comunicate your point"? Me as pedido pra explicar la gramatica de la lingua, etc, y comencee con la ortografie, pronunciación (como fan normalmente los libros de gramatica pra strangeris), y de aí paso a la gramatic. U ki esu tem a ve cum "recuzar a comunicar?" Aussa du redest fom House Stile, oda jetz fon RITE. But i chainjd that - nobody has evver complaned about that amung frends, newspapers, authoritys, and internet groups, but of all groups the oanly ones who seem to hav trubble with it ar the linguistic forums, ware peeple lern mongolian and mapuche and wolof and lern and invent new ritings that ar hundreds of times harder to lern. Mentenant jai seulmen el ortografie inglishe reformee na bloc superieur, na bloc inferieur je ha seulmen el ortografie normal.

EN

Just have a look at a dictionary from english to another language: you'll see that almost all english words have 3, 4 or even 10 translations in other languages. I dont know what you have on your table, but on mine i have a mouse, that in english can be an animal or a device to control the computer. I have a cup, but this cup could be a championship, too, as The World Cup. I have a glass, and this can mean a container for liquids or a sort of material. And i have a lighter, which might have a single sense, but 'light' can be in french 'lumière', 'leger', 'claire'. There are brazilians who say english is a poor language, because they just have one verb for 3 "different" activities: "jogar futebol", "tocar piano" and "brincar com as criansas na areia": to play. To play football, to play piano, and to play with children on the sand. Do you have a problem to know what 'play' i'm talking about? Certainly not. Or in german: there is 'das' as an article (the), as a demonstrative pronoun (that), as a relative pronoun (that) and as conjunction (that), but as a conjunction they spell 'dass'. If someone suggested that we spell 'that' for the demonstrative, 'thatt' for the relative pronoun and 'dhat' for the conjunction, you'd probably say, "Are you crazy? Everybody understands those 'thats', this certainly doesnt need a change!" And if english had 'that' for demonstrative and relative but 'thatt' for the conjunction and somebody suggested simplifying 'thatt' to 'that' (as they wanted to do in the german reform), you'd say "Then people wont understand you!" So i guess that anti-reformers arent for or against more or less differentiation, what they want is that everything remains as it is.

Or why dont we spell 'table' for the furniture and 'tabel' for a bord or panel with a list or grafic - in all other languages i know there are 2 different words for it, as in french 'table' and 'tableau', in german 'tafel' and 'tabelle', etc. Did you ever fight for a reform that would differentiate both words? I bet you didnt.

And then these homophones dont cause any problems in an (oral) conversation, where you cant see how words are spelled, so if they dont cause any problems in the spoken language, why should they cause problems in the written language?

What do you want to say with 'refuse to communicate your point'? You asked me to tell more about the language, explain the grammar of europan, etc, and i started with the spelling, pronunciation (as language books for L2 learners usually do), and then i'll go on explaining the grammar. What does that have to do with "refuse to communicate"? Unless you are talking about the House Stile (or now RITE). But i changed that - nobody has evver complaned about that among frends, newspapers, authorities, and internet groups, but of all groups the only ones who seem to have trouble with it are the linguistic forums, where people learn mongolian and mapuche and wolof and learn and invent new alphabets. Now i just write in RITE in the upper block, when i write in reformed spelling (in all languages i know more or less well). The lower block is written in normal english now.
Keenir
runic
runic
Posts: 2525
Joined: Tue 22 May 2012, 02:05

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Keenir » Mon 30 Jul 2018, 17:46

Zé do Rock wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 16:05
elemtilas wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 02:36
Well, a rite and a right are two different things, for a start.
What do you want to say with 'refuse to communicate your point'? You asked me to tell more about the language, explain the grammar of europan, etc, and i started with the spelling, pronunciation (as language books for L2 learners usually do), and then i'll go on explaining the grammar. What does that have to do with "refuse to communicate"? Unless you are talking about the House Stile (or now RITE). But i changed that - nobody has evver complaned about that among frends, newspapers, authorities, and internet groups, but of all groups the only ones who seem to have trouble with it are the linguistic forums, where people learn mongolian and mapuche and wolof and learn and invent new alphabets. Now i just write in RITE in the upper block, when i write in reformed spelling (in all languages i know more or less well). The lower block is written in normal english now.
ah, but do you mean the Right Honorable Gentleman from Labor, or the Eastern Rite of the Most Holy And Apostolic Church? Or am I right about both? I mean, I could go shopping in Rite-Aid for groceries.

that's four different meanings for what I don't know if you're cramming it all into "rite"
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Mon 30 Jul 2018, 21:49

Keenir wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 17:46
ah, but do you mean the Right Honorable Gentleman from Labor, or the Eastern Rite of the Most Holy And Apostolic Church? Or am I right about both? I mean, I could go shopping in Rite-Aid for groceries.

that's four different meanings for what I don't know if you're cramming it all into "rite"
EU

Yu spele lus wen yu Spik abaut lus (in spikee lingua)?

Yu vou bi pro speling "lets get a pizza", ma "he getts red in the face", "she ghets there everytime"?

Yu vou bi pro speling "He left his house at 7 PM and turned lepht at the next crossing"?


EN

Do you spell them when you Talk about them (in spoken language)?

Would you favor that we spell "lets get a pizza", but "he getts red in the face", "she ghets there everytime"?

Would you favor that we spell "He left his house at 7 PM and turned lepht at the next crossing"?
Keenir
runic
runic
Posts: 2525
Joined: Tue 22 May 2012, 02:05

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Keenir » Mon 30 Jul 2018, 22:13

Do you spell them when you Talk about them (in spoken language)?
Yes!
...in the sense that I know which one I am talking about.
Would you favor that we spell "lets get a pizza", but "he getts red in the face", "she ghets there everytime"?

Would you favor that we spell "He left his house at 7 PM and turned lepht at the next crossing"?
hmm. so, when someone takes the time to explain a shortcoming that is irritating others...your response is to mock and belittle their effort? You may be surprised, but that's not going to help you get people to learn your Phansi Nu Inglis.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799
clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2393
Joined: Sun 24 Jun 2012, 06:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by clawgrip » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 01:24

Zé do Rock wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 16:05
If someone suggested that we spell 'that' for the demonstrative, 'thatt' for the relative pronoun and 'dhat' for the conjunction, you'd probably say, "Are you crazy? Everybody understands those 'thats', this certainly doesnt need a change!"
Right, we agree that increasing homonyms seems unnecessary.
And if english had 'that' for demonstrative and relative but 'thatt' for the conjunction and somebody suggested simplifying 'thatt' to 'that' (as they wanted to do in the german reform), you'd say "Then people wont understand you!" So i guess that anti-reformers arent for or against more or less differentiation, what they want is that everything remains as it is.
Pretty much. People don't like changes.

A small spelling change like thatt → that is something that some people would accept if it doesn't merge two words (cf. mitt, mit), but generally not if it does merge two words (cf. butt vs. but).

Major changes in spelling can significantly reduce reading speed because we do not read letter by letter, and people are already fluent reading the spelling we use. Plus as has been covered countless times, any major more toward a phonetic spelling would require favouring one version of English over the others, so we just stick with this fairly neutral version.
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 23:32

Keenir wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 22:13
Do you spell them when you Talk about them (in spoken language)?
Yes!
...in the sense that I know which one I am talking about.
Would you favor that we spell "lets get a pizza", but "he getts red in the face", "she ghets there everytime"?

Would you favor that we spell "He left his house at 7 PM and turned lepht at the next crossing"?
hmm. so, when someone takes the time to explain a shortcoming that is irritating others...your response is to mock and belittle their effort? You may be surprised, but that's not going to help you get people to learn your Phansi Nu Inglis.
what is irritating others? that i dont agree seemingly with the majority here? are other opinions not welcome here?

to mock and belittle? trying to explain to them that they're probably not necessarily for differentiation, unless it exists already? this doesnt seem consistent to me, but they could explain it to me, if they think it is consistent.
Zé do Rock
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 71
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 17:22

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Zé do Rock » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 23:46

clawgrip wrote:
Tue 31 Jul 2018, 01:24
Pretty much. People don't like changes.

A small spelling change like thatt → that is something that some people would accept if it doesn't merge two words (cf. mitt, mit), but generally not if it does merge two words (cf. butt vs. but).

Major changes in spelling can significantly reduce reading speed because we do not read letter by letter, and people are already fluent reading the spelling we use. Plus as has been covered countless times, any major more toward a phonetic spelling would require favouring one version of English over the others, so we just stick with this fairly neutral version.
EU

Lis ha ta diferenciacion in deutsh, e dat is la cauza pro la mouste falsitees na lingua. Si la vordes havau "concreto" diferenses, as un vord ki signifi 'sal' et el otre signifik 'elefant', lu vou bi relativlik izi, ma tu multi pople ha non idee wat a relativo pronom e wat a conjunccion is.

Eniwei lu dura meibi 1/10, o meibi 1/100 af a secundo pro la cerebro tu interpreta la fraze "I'll get a pizza" corectli, dopo la personi hav audi lu. Meibi lu dura doble longo temp, dat is 2/10 o 2/100 af a secundo tu merke ki la fraze "You're doing the rite thing!" ha no relacion co ritos, ki lu is un otre vord pro 'corect'. Ma wen yu stan abituee tu lu, e lu hapen bene cuicli, lu dura la same tempo tu merk as la senso de 'get'. La vantag in a reform is dat yu sa ki certo sones ha solo un modus tu bi scrivee, yu mus no chek in a diccionar - e lu canau dur oras tu chek ale posibilitees - si la vord ha homofones. Dopo al, nixi sav ale vordes af a lingua. So si yu mus scrive /bEd/, yu canau bi temtee tu scrive 'bed', ma den vou can ai a vord con un otre significu dat is ja scrivee so, e tai dodoh canau bi scrivee bead as bread, baid as said, bad as any, etc. E si a reforma can no repara dat, wat is a sens af a reform? Lu sime mouste membris hir vou sei ki dat is a bon argumento to fa non a reform, ma den i pensa ki ta forum is abaut conlinguas, e wat is un ortografie reforma si non un a posteriori reforma dat is uzee solo pro a certo scrivee lingua. E na trad abaut inglish ortografie reforma hav ai some sugestiones com oni canau fa lu, so non ale membris is contra reform.

Apropoh, mi vou no sei ki "pople" laike no chang. Pro exemplo in Deutshland lis fazou sondages si pople aprov ortografie reformas, 50% was pro, 50% was contra - ma 80% disaprovou la reale reform. E lu depend alwen de wat oni reform: mi lasou 20 000 personis vot in mai shous, e hav ai changus ki plu dan 80% aprovou, otrus minu ki 10%...


EN

They have this diferentiation in german, and it is the cause for the most mistakes in the language. If the words had "concrete" differences, say like one word means 'salt' and the other means 'elephant', it would be relatively easy, but too many people dont have any idea what a relative pronoun and what a conjuction is.

Anyway it takes maybe 1/10 of a second, or maybe 1/100 of a second for the brain to interprete the sentence "I'll get a pizza" correctly, after the person has heard it. After that very short time they know it cant be "I will become a pizza" or "I will go to a pizza". Maybe it takes double as long, that is 2/10 or 2/100 of a second to realize that the sentence "You're doing the rite thing!" doesnt have anything to do with rites, that it is another word for correct. But once you get used to it, and thats happens quite quickly, it takes as long as realizing the sense of 'get'. The advantage in a reform is that you know that certain sounds have only one way to be spelled, you dont have to look at a dictionary to check - and it could hours until you checked all possibilities - if the word has homophones. After all, nobody knows all the words of a language. So if you have to spell /bEd/, you might want to spell 'bed', but then there might be a word with another meaning that is spelled already that way, and your bed could be spelled bead as bread, baid as said, bad as any, etc. And if a reform cant fix that, what is the sense of a reform? It seems most members here would say that this is a good argument for not making any reform, but then i think that this forum is about conlangs, and what is a spelling reform than an a posteriori reform that applies for a certain written language. And in the thread about english spelling reform i've seen some reform proposals, so it seems that not all members are against reform. Unless they were just doing for fun, but in the end opposed it, i dont know.

By the way, i wouldnt say that "people" dont like change. For instance in Germany they made polls to know if people approve of spelling reforms, 50% were for reforms, 50% against - but more than 80% were against the reform that actually happened. So it always depends of what you reform: i let 20 000 viewers in my shows vote on single changes, and there were changes that more than 80% approved, others less than 10%...
Keenir
runic
runic
Posts: 2525
Joined: Tue 22 May 2012, 02:05

Re: europidjin? euroblabla? europex?

Post by Keenir » Wed 01 Aug 2018, 04:13

Zé do Rock wrote:
Tue 31 Jul 2018, 23:46
Anyway it takes maybe 1/10 of a second, or maybe 1/100 of a second for the brain to interprete the sentence "I'll get a pizza" correctly, after the person has heard it. After that very short time they know it cant be "I will become a pizza" or "I will go to a pizza". Maybe it takes double as long, that is 2/10 or 2/100 of a second to realize that the sentence "You're doing the rite thing!" doesnt have anything to do with rites, that it is another word for correct. But once you get used to it, and thats happens quite quickly, it takes as long as realizing the sense of 'get'. The advantage in a reform is that you know that certain sounds have only one way to be spelled, you dont have to look at a dictionary to check
but that only works after a reform is accepted and enacted and time has passed.

right now, you're at the stage of trying to get us to buy into your reform...and you can't (yet?) tell us why its a good idea to glom together homonyms that have multiple meanings. in other words, you're asking us to trade English's mad spelling system, for the English spelling of Mandarin or another Chinese language - only forgetting to mark the tones.
(actually, tones would solve a lot of the distinguishingment problems we've remarked upon)
And if a reform cant fix that, what is the sense of a reform? It seems most members here would say that this is a good argument for not making any reform,
reforms require explanation.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799
Post Reply