Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

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Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

Post by SLiV » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12

Maran is a small a priori greeklang I've been scribbling down over the past couple of weekends. It is a bit of a reboot of Kerdos, where I focussed mostly on programmatically generating diachronics and dictionaries; although I liked the programming exercise and the neat pdfs it generated, it left the conlanging itself a bit wanting. :roll:

Phonology

/p b t d k (g)/
/ps (bz) (tʃ) dz ks (gz)/
/m n (ŋ)/
/f s (z) x/
/(w) r l/
/i (ɪ) e (ɛ) (ə) a (ɑ) o (ɔ) æ u/

<α β χ δ ε ζ η φ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π ρ σ τ ψ ω>
/a b x d e dz æ f i k l m n ks o p r s t ps u/

Syllable structure is (C(C))V(C) where valid onsets are all single consonants and /sp, st, sk, sb, sx, pn, tn, kn, fn, bm, dm, xm, pl, bl, kl, xl, fl, pr, br, tr, dr, kr, xr, fr, pt, kt, ft, kf/, whereas valid codas are only /s n m l r/ with the latter three reducing to [w]. I'm guessing not all VCCCV clusters that can be formed this way are legal, but I haven't made a full list. Also geminated ττ [t:], σσ [s:], λλ [l:], νν [n:] may appear between vowels. Vowel only syllables are also rare, so VVV would not occur; maybe I will revive vowel assimilation from an older language to resolve this, or just use epenthesis. The only mono-syllabic diphthongs are ει [ɛɪ], αι [ɑɪ], οι [ɔɪ].

Vowel allophony depend on the length of the following consonant cluster. Consonants β /b/, δ /d/, ψ /ps/, ζ /dz/, ξ /ks/ are considered long, as are geminated ττ [t:], σσ [s:], λλ [l:], νν [n:] and all multi-consonant clusters. Consonants χ /x/, ρ /r/, μ /m/ are half-long. All other consonants are short. The vowels α /a/, ο /o/, ε /e/ are pronounced [ɑ], [ɔ], [ɛ] before long or half-long consonants and word-finally, with [ɛ] reducing to [ə] when unstressed. The vowel ι /i/ is pronounced [ɪ] before long consonants, but pronounced [i] before half-long consonants.

Consonants τ /t/, κ /k/, σ /s/ become voiced [d], [g], [z] intervocalically, and ψ /ps/, ξ /ks/ become voiced [bz], [gz] if the following consonant cluster is voiced or starts with [m]. The nasal ν /n/ becomes /ŋ/ before velar [k], [g], [x], [ks], [gz] The pairings τι /ti/, τε /te/ become [tʃi~tʃɪ], [tʃə] when unstressed, with the [ə] dropping word-finally.

Nouns & Adjectives

There are two cases, nominative and oblique, and two genders, feminine/animate and masculine/inanimate. Each noun has an intrinsic gender that is distinguishing, e.g. feminine ωματις "mayor, king, queen" versus masculine ωματος "morning". Adjectives agree with their noun on gender, defaulting to feminine in case of conflict (e.g. "nice boys and girls").

Declension table for μαχις ("tall"):
Fem. sg. μαχις, μαχεν; pl. μαχι, μαχα;
Masc. sg. μαχος, μαχον; pl. μαχοι, μαχα.

Alternative declensions:
Fem. sg. ιντες, ιντεν; pl. ιντι, ιντα; ("sun")
Fem. sg. ιβις, ιβιν; pl. ιβει, ιβη; ("letter, symbol")
Fem. sg. μορη, μορην; pl. μοραι, μορα; ("law")
Masc. sg. βας, βαν; pl. βαι, βα; ("boss, leader")
Masc. sg. φενο, φεν; pl. φενι, φενα. ("blood")

The indefinite article is εμ [ew], which does not decline. There is no definite article. Pronouns so far: 1sg. με, 2sg. σα(ν), 1pl. excl. νη(ν), 1pl. incl. εσσε and 2pl. ση(ν). The bracketed (ν) is realized when the following word starts with a vowel. This also happens with τις, τι(ν), τινι, τια ("who").

Verbs

Present tense conjugation for τελω ("to bring"):
1sg. τελω [telu];
2sg. τελεις [telɛɪs];
3sg. τελει [telɛɪ];
1pl. τελομ [telɔw];
2pl. τελετε [telətʃ];
3pl. τελεν [telən];

Past tense:
1sg. τελσον [tɛlsɔn];
2sg. τελσας [tɛlsɑs];
3sg. τελσα [tɛlsa];
1pl. τελσομ [tɛlsɔw];
2pl. τελσατε [tɛlsɑtʃ];
3pl. τελσαν [tɛlsɑn].

Perfect participle:
Fem. sg. τελκις [tɛwkɪs];
Masc. sg. τελκας [tɛwkɑs];
F./m. pl. τελκε [tɛwkə].

Infinitive: τελι [teli].

Aspects and moods are constructed by combining copulae or light verbs with either the participle or the infinitive. There are three copulae, which are all stative verbs. The agentive copula ει, ες, ε, ειμ, ειτε, εισε indicates that the subject reached a certain state by their own doing, and is used for perfective aspect and to describe existence. By contrast, the patientive copula ος, ας, ας, ομ, ας, αμ indicates that someone or something else caused the subject to become that state, and is used for the passive perfective. The essential copula σω, ες, ε, σομ, σες, σαμ describes a subject's intrinsic characteristics, membership or equality.

Certain verbs can take on a role as a light verb / dynamic auxiliary verbs; so far I've come up with:
σταω ("stand"), σεδω ("sit") and ρεω (lie down") with infinitive for continuous aspect;
ιχω ("go") with infinitive for prospective aspect;
τραχω ("run") with infinitive for progressive aspect;
ρομω ("turn") with infinitive for inceptive aspect;
βακω ("land") with infinitive indicates terminative aspect.

Examples:
ει τελκας [ɛɪ tɛwkɑs] I have brought
ος τελκας [ɔs tɛwkɑs] I am brought
ιχω τελι [ixu teli] I will bring
σεδεω τελι [sedeu teli] I am (constantly) bringing

Verb conjugations can sort of be derived from the base form of the present tense, past tense, participle and infinitive:
βαλλω, βαλλωσαν, βαλλις, βαλλι ("throw");
τισω, τεισσον, τεσκις, τισι ("write");
δαω, δακον, δακις, δαι ("give");
λιρω, λειρο, λερκις, λειρι ("sing");
λιμω, λεμβον, λεμβις, λεμβι ("say");
ιχω, ηξον, ιχτις, ιχι ("go").

However there are some exceptions, e.g. past tense 1pl. δαχμα [dɑxma] because /dakma/ is illegal (although I could consider δακμα [dɑgma], hmm...), and I have not yet come up with all possible regular verb conjugations. The way I laid them out above takes a lot of vertical space, so I might turn back to LaTeX and make some nice columns or tables.

Well, that's all I have so far.
Last edited by SLiV on Fri 10 Aug 2018, 13:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

Post by Pabappa » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:25

I like the feminist gender setup. Are the nouns and verbs always regular? (I see now you mention regular verbs, implying there are irregulars as well)
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Re: Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

Post by SLiV » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 16:43

Are the nouns always regular?
I don't know yet. [:P]
Because the declension tables for nouns are so small (only four forms), I imagine they will all turn out regular in the sense that they can be grouped based on gender and sg. nom. ending. But I might add an ablaut somewhere.
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Re: Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 03:35

SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
Maran is a small greeklang I've been scribbling down over the past couple of weekends.
If I might ask, what variety of Greek is Maran descended from? What is the etymology of its name?
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
/p b t d k (g)/
/ps (bz) (tʃ) dz ks (gz)/
/m n (ŋ)/
/f s (z) x/
/(w) r l/
/i (ɪ) e (ɛ) (ə) a (ɑ) o (ɔ) æ u/

<α β χ δ ε ζ η φ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π ρ σ τ ψ ω>
/a b x d e dz æ f i k l m n ks o p r s t ps u/
If possible, could we see the sound changes leading to Maran? What happened to the letters <γ θ υ>? Are they not even used in etymological spellings?
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
Syllable structure is (C(C))V(C) where valid onsets are all single consonants and /sp, st, sk, sb, sx, pn, tn, kn, fn, bm, dm, xm, pl, bl, kl, xl, fl, pr, br, tr, dr, kr, xr, fr, pt, kt, ft, kf/, whereas valid codas are only /s n m l r/ with the latter three reducing to [w]. I'm guessing not all VCCCV clusters that can be formed this way are legal, but I haven't made a full list. Also geminated ττ [t:], σσ [s:], λλ [l:], νν [n:] may appear between vowels. Vowel only syllables are also rare, so VVV would not occur; maybe I will revive vowel assimilation from an older language to resolve this, or just use epenthesis. The only mono-syllabic diphthongs are ει [ɛɪ], αι [ɑɪ], οι [ɔɪ].
This question might not make sense, but /tn/ instead of /tm/?
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
The pairings τι /ti/, τε /te/ become [tʃi~tʃɪ], [tʃə] when unstressed, with the [ə] dropping word-finally.
Is there no palatalization in stressed syllables? Are velars ever palatalized?
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
There are two cases, nominative and oblique, and two genders, feminine/animate and masculine/inanimate. Each noun has an intrinsic gender that is distinguishing, e.g. feminine ωματις "mayor, king, queen" versus masculine ωματος "morning". Adjectives agree with their noun on gender, defaulting to feminine in case of conflict (e.g. "nice boys and girls").
Interesting! Was there any particular inspiration for this?
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
Declension table for μαχις ("tall"):
Fem. sg. μαχις, μαχεν; pl. μαχι, μαχα;
Masc. sg. μαχος, μαχον; pl. μαχοι, μαχα.

Alternative declensions:
Fem. sg. ιντες, ιντεν; pl. ιντι, ιντα; ("sun")
Fem. sg. ιβις, ιβιν; pl. ιβει, ιβη; ("letter, symbol")
Fem. sg. μορη, μορην; pl. μοραι, μορα; ("law")
Masc. sg. βας, βαν; pl. βαι, βα; ("boss, leader")
Masc. sg. φενο, φεν; pl. φενι, φενα. ("blood")
So there are 4 feminine declensions and 3 masculine ones?
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
The indefinite article is εμ [ew], which does not decline. There is no definite article. Pronouns so far: 1sg. με, 2sg. σα(ν), 1pl. excl. νη(ν), 1pl. incl. εσσε and 2pl. ση(ν). The bracketed (ν) is realized when the following word starts with a vowel. This also happens with τις, τι(ν), τινι, τια ("who").
Sorry, but are those the nominative or oblique forms of the pronouns? Or is there no difference?
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
Aspects and moods are constructed by combining copulae or light verbs with either the participle or the infinitive. There are three copulae, which are all stative verbs. The agentive copula ει, ες, ε, ειμ, ειτε, εισε indicates that the subject reached a certain state by their own doing, and is used for perfective aspect and to describe existence. By contrast, the patientive copula ος, ας, ας, ομ, ας, αμ indicates that someone or something else caused the subject to become that state, and is used for the passive perfective. The essential copula σω, ες, ε, σομ, σες, σαμ describes a subject's intrinsic characteristics, membership or equality.
Interesting! Is the essential copula used in any aspectual or modal constructions?
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
Certain verbs can take on a role as a light verb / dynamic auxiliary verbs; so far I've come up with:
σταω ("stand"), σεδω ("sit") and ρεω (lie down") with infinitive for continuous aspect;
Any of those three verbs can be used for the continuous aspect?
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
Well, that's all I have so far.
Very nice! Looking forward to more!
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Re: Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

Post by SLiV » Wed 08 Aug 2018, 01:43

shimobaatar wrote:
Mon 06 Aug 2018, 03:35
If I might ask, what variety of Greek is Maran descended from? What is the etymology of its name?
[...]
If possible, could we see the sound changes leading to Maran? What happened to the letters <γ θ υ>? Are they not even used in etymological spellings?
Maran is an a priori language inspired by ancient greek. The portuguese influences are very much superficial. I didn't do any diachronics. I dropped those three letters on purpose to give Maran a bit of a different feel. In particular it forced me to break free of using -ου as masculine singular genitive. I might end up using them in foreign names or loan words.
This question might not make sense, but /tn/ instead of /tm/?
I went with n before unvoiced phonemes and m before voiced phonemes. Dunno if that makes sense.
Is there no palatalization in stressed syllables? Are velars ever palatalized?
It might have τε /te/ become [tʃe] when stressed... τελω [tʃelu]... that kinda works. I hadn't considered palatalizing /k/ and /x/ as well, but maybe.
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
There are two cases, nominative and oblique, and two genders, feminine/animate and masculine/inanimate. Each noun has an intrinsic gender that is distinguishing, e.g. feminine ωματις "mayor, king, queen" versus masculine ωματος "morning". Adjectives agree with their noun on gender, defaulting to feminine in case of conflict (e.g. "nice boys and girls").
Interesting! Was there any particular inspiration for this?
Well the idea came from a conspecies I came up with a while back, the Enmir. They're humanoids with hairy legs and a tail, and the men have antlers. Enmir women are larger, stronger and more rare, so the women often have positions of power and bear children from multiple men. Women represent natural strength and stability, whereas men represent something artificial and random. That lead to wanting to use feminine as the 'default' gender in a language. Maran might end up being the language of the Enmir.
So there are 4 feminine declensions and 3 masculine ones?
At the moment, yes, but I haven't fleshed this out yet.
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
Pronouns so far: 1sg. με, 2sg. σα(ν), 1pl. excl. νη(ν), 1pl. incl. εσσε and 2pl. ση(ν).
Sorry, but are those the nominative or oblique forms of the pronouns? Or is there no difference?
My bad: those are oblique. Maran is a pro-drop language.
Interesting! Is the essential copula used in any aspectual or modal constructions?
I don't think so, as ει and ος probably complement each other well enough to cover all stative aspectual constructions.
SLiV wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 14:12
Certain verbs can take on a role as a light verb / dynamic auxiliary verbs; so far I've come up with:
σταω ("stand"), σεδω ("sit") and ρεω (lie down") with infinitive for continuous aspect;
Any of those three verbs can be used for the continuous aspect?
Yeah, with subtly different meanings or use cases that I haven't thought of. I'm thinking σταω indicates some sort of continuous effort, whereas continuous processes of natural entities like rivers might use ρεω.
Very nice! Looking forward to more!
Thanks!
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Re: Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 08 Aug 2018, 20:28

Another :grc: lang from SLiV - Hooray!
:mrgreen:

Some observations, questions and comments.


1 - I saw how your copulæ have /μ/ for both 1Pl and 3PL, which looks and feels like a def :por: influence . Is there a reason why the 'regular' verb conjugation has /ν/ for the 3PL, and not a /μ/ as well?

2- Looking at the 'principal parts' of βαλλι ("throw"):
βαλλω, βαλλωσαν, βαλλις, βαλλι
By way of suggestion, since Ancient :grc: had a weird EPic ACT.AOR2 εβλην & ACT.PFT βεβληκα, mebbe the AOR in Maran could be *βλωσαν (?) Again, just a suggestion.

3 - Comparing the PRES.1PL and PST.1PL
1pl. τελομ [telɔw];
1pl. τελσομ [tɛlsɔw];
This almost reminds me of the '2 for 1' bargain that :spa: and :por: verbs have in the PRES.1PL and PERF.PRET.1PL in at least regular /ar/ verbs:
Cf. cantamos (PRS) :: cantamos (PRET)

This makes sense in the Iberian light, yet I was wondering why the Maran PST.1PL wouldn't be *τελσαμ ?? :wat:
Just wondering.

4 - Also curious about
δαχμα
. You parse it as PST.1PL. DId you mean *δαχαμ ?
Don't get me wrong; δαχμα looks sounds and feels like an interesting descendant of Ancient :grc: δεδωκαμεν.

I'd give a thumbs up for either *τελσαμ or *τελσμα for the PST.1PL : maybe dialectal variants???

Cannot wait to see more !!!
[:D]

PS: Does Maran have a phrase akin to :por: obrigado for 'thanks' , mayhap a descendant of ὀφειλέτης 'indebted', 'obliged' ?
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Re: Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 10 Aug 2018, 02:26

SLiV wrote:
Wed 08 Aug 2018, 01:43
Maran is an a priori language inspired by ancient greek.
Oh, sorry, my mistake! I misunderstood the meaning of "Greeklang".
SLiV wrote:
Wed 08 Aug 2018, 01:43
I went with n before unvoiced phonemes and m before voiced phonemes. Dunno if that makes sense.
Ah, I only asked because I'm pretty sure Ancient Greek allowed τμ- but not τν-. Since this is an a priori language, that's not really relevant.

I'm actually not sure that it makes sense to have voiceless + n clusters and voiced + m clusters, but I could be wrong.
SLiV wrote:
Wed 08 Aug 2018, 01:43
My bad: those are oblique. Maran is a pro-drop language.
Subject pronouns are dropped 100% of the time?
SLiV wrote:
Wed 08 Aug 2018, 01:43
Yeah, with subtly different meanings or use cases that I haven't thought of. I'm thinking σταω indicates some sort of continuous effort, whereas continuous processes of natural entities like rivers might use ρεω.
That could definitely work.
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Re: Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

Post by SLiV » Fri 10 Aug 2018, 14:50

Lambuzhao wrote:
Wed 08 Aug 2018, 20:28
1 - I saw how your copulæ have /μ/ for both 1Pl and 3PL, which looks and feels like a def :por: influence . Is there a reason why the 'regular' verb conjugation has /ν/ for the 3PL, and not a /μ/ as well?
Because I came up with the copulae after I wrote down the regular verbs. [xP]

I guess 3PL is a bit all over the place since 3PL of some regular verbs is -σι or -ωσι, e.g. βαλλωσι. I might clean that up, or conversely add more variance to the other endings.
2- Looking at the 'principal parts' of βαλλι ("throw"):
βαλλω, βαλλωσαν, βαλλις, βαλλι
By way of suggestion, since Ancient :grc: had a weird EPic ACT.AOR2 εβλην & ACT.PFT βεβληκα, mebbe the AOR in Maran could be *βλωσαν (?) Again, just a suggestion.
Ooh I like that. In this case I chose βαλλι as the representative of a class of regular verbs that end with -λλ, so that's why it keeps the root visible. But yeah I might do that once I come up with some other regular verbs. Or should I just keep jotting down semi-regular principal parts like that and leave the completely regular verbs for later?
3 - Comparing the PRES.1PL and PST.1PL
1pl. τελομ [telɔw];
1pl. τελσομ [tɛlsɔw];
This almost reminds me of the '2 for 1' bargain that :spa: and :por: verbs have in the PRES.1PL and PERF.PRET.1PL in at least regular /ar/ verbs:
Cf. cantamos (PRS) :: cantamos (PRET)

This makes sense in the Iberian light, yet I was wondering why the Maran PST.1PL wouldn't be *τελσαμ ?? :wat:
Just wondering.

4 - Also curious about
δαχμα
. You parse it as PST.1PL. DId you mean *δαχαμ ?
Don't get me wrong; δαχμα looks sounds and feels like an interesting descendant of Ancient :grc: δεδωκαμεν.

I'd give a thumbs up for either *τελσαμ or *τελσμα for the PST.1PL : maybe dialectal variants???
In Kerdos and earlier sketches I had 1PL *-ομα, but for Maran I added μ to the list of possible codae, so I decided -ομ would be more interesting. I'm thinking 1PL -μα might occur in some irregular verbs to show this origin. That's why I had δακμα, which becomes δαχμα due to phonotactics.

For the past tense I was thinking the protolang breakdown would be τελ+σα+ομα where the α+ο merges into ο and the final α drops. Normally (?) I would have had them merge to ω, but that doesn't make sense since that became /u/. I suppose 1PL.PST τελσαμ would also work, but now that you've mentioned it I could also do 3PL.PST τελσαμ... Options...
Cannot wait to see more !!!
[:D]

PS: Does Maran have a phrase akin to :por: obrigado for 'thanks' , mayhap a descendant of ὀφειλέτης 'indebted', 'obliged' ?
Oh, I like that: οφειλω, ωφηλον, ωφελτις, οφιλι ("owe") into ωφελτις / ωφελτας / ωφελτε ("thanks").

Ωφελτας, Λαμβωσαο!

(As an aside, after being mostly apathetic towards my native Dutch throughout high school, I have been slowly falling in love with its verbs from a conlanging perspective. While looking at bedankt ~ bedanken, it also listed afdanken which leads to afgedankt. What a word!)
shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 10 Aug 2018, 02:26
Subject pronouns are dropped 100% of the time?
I'm thinking yes. Any emphasis needed would be achieved through some sort of preposition / topic marker together with the oblique.
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Re: Maran, a small greeklang with portuguese and english influences

Post by SLiV » Sun 02 Sep 2018, 13:41

I made some verb conjugation tables:

Image Image
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Image Image

Work in progress, since I might want to further deregularize a couple of them. In particular because the present tense seems to be way more regular than the past tense, which is strange.
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