Advice for Omyatloko

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masako
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Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 03:58

I would like some advice, please. I have 351 glyphs but I know some them will rarely be used, and I realize I lack glyphs for words that are more common. So, I've been mapping my glyphs to the Kyōiku kanji in an effort to get basic, common words but I think I may be missing the mark.

Should I look for a list of common Hanzi/Kanji/Kanja or use some other guidepost? I had thought of using common Mayan glyphs or Egyptian hieroglyphs, but the resources are usually not very good. My goal is to have about 500 glyphs for fairly common words.

Any and all help is appreciated.
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by sangi39 » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 04:53

masako wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 03:58
I would like some advice, please. I have 351 glyphs but I know some them will rarely be used, and I realize I lack glyphs for words that are more common. So, I've been mapping my glyphs to the Kyōiku kanji in an effort to get basic, common words but I think I may be missing the mark.

Should I look for a list of common Hanzi/Kanji/Kanja or use some other guidepost? I had thought of using common Mayan glyphs or Egyptian hieroglyphs, but the resources are usually not very good. My goal is to have about 500 glyphs for fairly common words.

Any and all help is appreciated.
I'd say somewhere between Linear B (which has around 100 ideographs) and maybe third-grade Kyoiku Kanji (440) might be okay. It depends really on exactly on how exactly those glyphs are used. In Linear B, for example, they're used almost exclusively as ideograms or determinatives, while in Japanese they're used as... everything [:P] I think it might come down to a) whether the writing system is borrowed vs. native and b) whether the system tries to be phonetic or not (which then depends on the phonology of the language).
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 19:58

sangi39 wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 04:53
a) whether the writing system is borrowed vs. native
It's inspired, but not borrowed.
sangi39 wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 04:53
b) whether the system tries to be phonetic or not (which then depends on the phonology of the language).
Well, it's a mixed system; "The glyphs are logosyllabic, combining about 500 logograms (which represent whole words) and 220 syllabograms (which represent syllables). "
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by cedh » Sun 14 Oct 2018, 15:13

What about using some glyphs both as a logogram and as a phonetic glyph for the initial syllable of the most basic word for the concept represented by the logogram?
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » Mon 15 Oct 2018, 17:17

cedh wrote:
Sun 14 Oct 2018, 15:13
What about using some glyphs both as a logogram and as a phonetic glyph for the initial syllable of the most basic word for the concept represented by the logogram?
Your idea is a good one, however, I already have an entire (featural) syllabary. That means I'm not looking for syllables, but logograms, and I'd like to avoid ambiguity as much as possible between the two types of glyphs.
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:14

masako wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 03:58
My goal is to have about 500 glyphs for fairly common words.
in natlanguages, alphabets have tens signs, syllabaries hundred, logographies thousands...
How do you hack those limits to get your number of signs...
masako wrote:I already have an entire (featural) syllabary.
Featural in what sense...
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by spanick » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 00:40

lsd wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:14
masako wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 03:58
My goal is to have about 500 glyphs for fairly common words.
in natlanguages, alphabets have tens signs, syllabaries hundred, logographies thousands...
How do you hack those limits to get your number of signs...
This isn't entirely true. Sumerian Cuneiform only had 1,00-1,500 total graphemes. Akkadian used fewer, Assyrian fewer still. Hittite Cuneiform used only some 600 graphemes.
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » Wed 17 Oct 2018, 21:56

this does not contradict the average:
Around the twenties: alphabet
around the hundred: syllabary
around a thousand: logography...
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by spanick » Wed 17 Oct 2018, 23:23

lsd wrote:
Wed 17 Oct 2018, 21:56
this does not contradict the average:
Around the twenties: alphabet
around the hundred: syllabary
around a thousand: logography...
It does contradict what you originally said which was that logographic require thousands of symbols. I don’t know about you, but I’d consider 600 pretty far from 1000 and much closer to masako’s goal of 500 glyphs.
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » Thu 18 Oct 2018, 06:06

500 it's a bit limited for a purely logographic system ...
except to hack the system a bit ...
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » Thu 18 Oct 2018, 14:56

lsd wrote:
Thu 18 Oct 2018, 06:06
500 it's a bit limited for a purely logographic system
This lets us know that you're not paying attention. Omyatloko is not a purely logographic system.
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » Thu 18 Oct 2018, 21:30

I had seen it, but I can not see the articulation between the 500 purely logographic words and the rest of the lexicon ...
Is there any superposition, duplicates, or something ... (ditto for the featural stuff)
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » Fri 19 Oct 2018, 16:28

lsd wrote:
Thu 18 Oct 2018, 21:30
I had seen it, but I can not see the articulation between the 500 purely logographic words and the rest of the lexicon ...
Is there any superposition, duplicates, or something ... (ditto for the featural stuff)
I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about.

There are glyphs for whole words/ideas/concepts, and there is a featural syllabary (i.e. vowel markers are designed to convey articulation of vowels, as well as palatalization or labialization, consonantal pre-nasalization and diphthongs are also indicated).

Check this:
I finished developing glyphs for family terminology and a novel way to render various relatives.

Using these glyphs:
Image
These can be found on this page

You generate these terms:
Image

Note the use of -ha (augmentative) and -hi (diminutive) to denote relative age. The "handwritten" versions of each example are syllables, not logographic.
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » Fri 19 Oct 2018, 17:07

What i've understood: logograms are made by deformations of syllabic signs, and each compound of logograms makes meaning of a new word whose sound is a compound by reduction of the names of the compounded logograms...
In fact pronunciation is the basis of the writing, even logographic, by progressive deformations...
The featural thing come from hangul imports...
The whole stuf could be seen like a kind of amazing hangul mash-up...
Last edited by lsd on Fri 19 Oct 2018, 20:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » Fri 19 Oct 2018, 17:45

I'm not able to parse your thought-stream. Please take my appreciation for your attempt at participation and have a nice day.
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by cedh » Sat 20 Oct 2018, 10:01

How is the handwritten style related to the block style? I can see some similarities, but the glyphs don't seem to correspond...
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » Sat 20 Oct 2018, 13:29

cedh wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 10:01
How is the handwritten style related to the block style? I can see some similarities, but the glyphs don't seem to correspond...
In the examples above, the handwritten are the syllables and the grey glyphs are logograms.

https://i.imgur.com/hiVkIRK.png Hopefully this clears up some confusion.
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by cedh » Sat 20 Oct 2018, 17:31

masako wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 13:29
https://i.imgur.com/hiVkIRK.png Hopefully this clears up some confusion.
Ah, I see. Thank you!
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Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » Mon 22 Oct 2018, 18:06

Good. I'm glad it helped.
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