Lapdeutsch

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All4Ɇn
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Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09

This is a language I mentioned a few days ago about making a post on. Lapdeutsch is a Germanic language spoken in parts of Germany and Netherlands. Its name refers not to any particular place but rather to the German word "Lappen" meaning rags as the language was traditionally viewed as an uneducated form of German. Despite this, the language shares not only a lot in common with Standard German, but also standard Dutch. The most notable feature of the language (and the main reason why I’ve created it) is that while cases for the most part are no longer really used in spoken language, due to a combination of fossilization and an effort on the behalf of grammarians to preserve outdated features, remnants of the case system are very common in pronouns, expressions (such as "in der Dad" meaning indeed or "tu Kope" meaning for sale) as well as in a very limited number of grammatical structures that are sometimes still kind of productive, albeit formal.

Phonology
Consonants
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng~n>
/p b t d k ɡ/ <p b t d k g>
/t͡s t͡ʃ/ <ts~z tsch>
/f v s z ʃ ç h/ <f~v w~v s~ss s sch ch h>
/j r l/ <j r l>

Vowels
/ɪ iː ʏ yː ʊ uː/ <i i~ie ü~y ü~y u u>
/eː øː oː/ <e ö o>
/ɛ (ɛː) œ ɔ/ <e~ä ä ö o>
/ə/ <e~u~i~ei~ie~a>
/a ɑː/ <a a>
/œʏ̯ ɛɪ̯ ɔʊ̯ aɪ̯/ <eu~öu ei ou ai~ay>

Phonemes found only in loanwords
/d͡ʒ ʒ/
/ɔɪ̯ aʊ̯ ɛ̃ː œ̃ː ɔ̃ː ɑ̃ː/

Notes
/b d z/ are devoiced at the end of words and before consonants other than /b d g z v/

/ɡ/ is pronounced as typically pronounced as [ɣ] between vowels and [k] before consonants other than /b d v z/. Before /k/ and word finally (or compound final in compound words), /ɡ/ becomes /ç/. After front vowels [ɣ] becomes [ʝ]. In some words such as röntgen (to x-ray), <ɡ> is pronounced irregularly as /ç/

/v/ becomes devoiced to [f] word finally and before consonants other than /b d z g/ when spelled as <v>. Words starting with <v> always pronounce it as /f/. When spelled as <w> it's always pronounced as [v].

/t͡s s z/ are pronounced as [t̻͡s̻ s̻ z̻]

/s/ only contrasts with /z/ between vowels or in foreign words and /t͡s/ only occurs in native words as the realization of /ts/

/tj dj t͡sj sj zj/ are pronounced as [c c t͡ʃ ʃ ʒ]

/ç/ is pronounced as [x] after [uː oː] and [χ] after all other back vowels

/ɛː/ is almost always realized as [eː]. It's only pronounced as [ɛː] in the name of the letter <ä>, when giving the spelling pronunciation of a word, and in very careful speech that's almost only used by people in the media.

/ə/ is usually just the unstressed variant of /ɛ/ but it also represents the unstressed pronunciation for a number of single syllable words/stems with other vowels.

/aɪ̯/ almost only occurs in borrowings, some of which such as Hai (shark) and Kaiser (emperor) have been fully nativized. In native words it only occurs as a possible realization of /aɡ/ and /eɡ/ when before another consonant such as in Maid (girl) or gesaid (said).

The spelling of long vs. short vowels is based heavily on how it's done in German. The only major differences are that <h> is used far less often and that before two or more consonants a long vowel must be marked with either doubling the vowel or with <h>.
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Wed 14 Nov 2018, 19:22, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by spanick » Mon 15 Oct 2018, 21:49

Interested to see where this goes
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Ælfwine » Mon 15 Oct 2018, 21:55

spanick wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 21:49
Interested to see where this goes
Seconded.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Porphyrogenitos » Mon 15 Oct 2018, 22:06

Looking forward to more!

What happens to the Germanic strong and weak adjective inflections?
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Mon 15 Oct 2018, 22:38

Porphyrogenitos wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 22:06
Looking forward to more!

What happens to the Germanic strong and weak adjective inflections?
Traditionally adjectives had a 3-way distinction between strong, weak, and mixed in 4 cases with a variety of forms. These still remain in some expressions and grammatical constructs such as "tu rechter Teid" meaning "in due time" or "tum neuen Strande" which is a way of saying "to the new beach". In modern speech outside of these remains constructs, adjectives either take -e or no ending, aren't declined for case, and have merged the mixed and strong endings together.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 00:13

A Declension Nouns
Nouns seemed like a good place to start with the grammar [:)]. All nouns were traditionally declined to 4 cases but nowadays aren't as regularly encountered outside of the nominative as they used to be. The genitive still sometimes used for possession and the dative plural is sometimes (not that often) used for showing indirect objects particularly for animate nouns not preceded by a determiner. The A Declension patterns shown below is the most common declension for masculine & neuter nouns.

Pattern 1
Nominative/Accusative Singular: -
Dative Singular: -e
Genitive Singular: -s or -es

Nominative/Accusative Plural: -e
Dative Plural: -en
Genitive Plural: -e

Sample Noun: Smedd (Smith)
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Smedd
Dative Singular: Smedde
Genitive Singular: Smedds or Smeddes

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Smedde
Dative Plural: Smedden
Genitive Plural: Smedde
Pattern 2
Nominative/Accusative Singular: -
Dative Singular: -
Genitive Singular: -s

Nominative/Accusative Plural: -
Dative Plural: -en (nothing if ending in -n)
Genitive Plural: -

Sample Noun: Morgen (Morning)
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Morgen
Dative Singular: Morgen
Genitive Singular: Morgens

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Morgen
Dative Plural: Morgen
Genitive Plural: Morgen
Used for most masculine/neuter nouns ending in -el/-en/-em/-er

Pattern 3
Nominative/Accusative Singular: -
Dative Singular: -
Genitive Singular: -s

Nominative/Accusative Plural: -̈
Dative Plural: -̈en (just -̈ if ending in -n)
Genitive Plural: -̈

Sample Noun: Vogel (Bird)
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Vogel
Dative Singular: Vogel
Genitive Singular: Vogels

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Vögel
Dative Plural: Vögelen
Genitive Plural: Vögel
Used for all other masculine/neuter nouns ending in -el/-en/-em/-er

Pattern 4
Nominative/Accusative Singular: -e
Dative Singular: -e
Genitive Singular: -es

Nominative/Accusative Plural: -e
Dative Plural: -en
Genitive Plural: -e

Sample Noun: Sege (Victory)
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Sege
Dative Singular: Sege
Genitive Singular: Seges

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Sege
Dative Plural: Segen
Genitive Plural: Sege
This pattern is used for the nouns Frede (peace), Käse (cheese), Sege (victory), and a fair number of neuter nouns starting with Ge-
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Sun 28 Oct 2018, 01:23, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 18:14

O, I, and Z Declension Nouns
O Declension
The most common "declension" for feminine nouns. Simply consists of a singular and plural form. Some nouns may end in -e while others may not, but regardless the plural is always formed is with -en
Singular: -(e)

Plural: -en

Sample Noun: Maid (Girl)
Spoiler:
Singular: Maid

Plural: Maiden
I Declension
Used by a ton of nouns, both masculine and feminine. Feminine nouns don't add the -e in the Dative or anything in the Genitive.
Nominative/Accusative Singular: -
Dative Singular: -(e)
Genitive Singular: -(s) or -(es)

Nominative/Accusative Plural: -̈e
Dative Plural: -̈en
Genitive Plural: -̈e

Sample Noun: Stad (City)
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Stad
Dative Singular: Stade
Genitive Singular: Staads or Stades

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Städe
Dative Plural: Städen
Genitive Plural: Städe
Z Declension
Like in Dutch and German, this once small declension family has grown to include quite a few nouns
Nominative/Accusative Singular: -
Dative Singular: -e
Genitive Singular: -s or -es

Nominative/Accusative Plural: -̈er
Dative Plural: -̈eren
Genitive Plural: -̈er

Sample Noun: Hus (House)
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Hus
Dative Singular: Huse
Genitive Singular: Huses

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Hüser
Dative Plural: Hüseren
Genitive Plural: Hüser
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 18:56

Weak Declension Nouns
Used for a number of masculine nouns. Some nouns have an -e in the nominative while others don't
Nominative Singular: -(e)
Accusative: -en
Dative Singular: -en
Genitive Singular: -en

Nominative/Accusative Plural: -en
Dative Plural: -en
Genitive Plural: -en

Sample Noun: Her (Sir)
Spoiler:
Nominative Singular: Her
Accusative Singular: Heren
Dative Singular: Heren
Genitive Singular: Heren

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Heren
Dative Plural: Heren
Genitive Plural: Heren
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 18:56

Irregular Declensions
Brain (n)- Brain
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Brain
Dative Singular: Braine
Genitive Singular: Brains or Braines

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Braine or Brains
Dative Plural: Brainen or Brains
Genitive Plural: Braine or Brains
Hert (n)- Heart
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Hert
Dative Singular: Herten
Genitive Singular: Herten

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Herten
Dative Plural Herten
Genitive Plural: Herten
Junge (m)- Boy
Spoiler:
Nominative Singular: Junge
Accusative Singular: Jungen
Dative Singular: Jungen
Genitive Singular: Jungen

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Jungen or Jungs
Dative Plural: Jungen or Jungs
Genitive Plural: Jungen or Jungs
Mann (m)- Man
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Mann
Dative Singular: Manne
Genitive Singular: Manns or Mannes

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Männer or Mann
Dative Plural: Männeren or Mann
Genitive Plural: Männer or Mann
Muder (f)- Mother
Same pattern used for Dochter (daughter) and Suster (sister)
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Muder
Dative Singular: Muder
Genitive Singular: Muder

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Müder
Dative Plural: Müderen
Genitive Plural: Müder
Oge (n)- Eye
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Oge
Dative Singular: Oge
Genitive Singular: Oges

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Ogen
Dative Plural Ogen
Genitive Plural: Ogen
Sohn (m)- Son
Same pattern used for Kerl (guy)
Spoiler:
Nominative/Accusative Singular: Sohn
Dative Singular: Sohne
Genitive Singular: Sohns or Sohnes

Nominative/Accusative Plural: Söhne or Sohns
Dative Plural: Söhnen or Sohns
Genitive Plural: Söhne or Sohns

In addition to these, the nouns Nacht and Wereld, both of which are feminine and usually have regular declensions, have masculine genitive forms (nachts and werelds) when used in the expressions "at night" and "in the world"
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 21:59

I figured I’d rush through nouns since it’s pretty simple grammar. I could move on next to either more declensions, or could discuss the different ways the various cases are still used in modern speech. Which would you guys be more interested in seeing now?
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 17 Oct 2018, 21:11

I would love to hear about actual case use.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by spanick » Wed 17 Oct 2018, 21:17

All4Ɇn wrote:
Tue 16 Oct 2018, 21:59
I figured I’d rush through nouns since it’s pretty simple grammar. I could move on next to either more declensions, or could discuss the different ways the various cases are still used in modern speech. Which would you guys be more interested in seeing now?
I'd like to know how they're still used in modern speech.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Thu 18 Oct 2018, 14:33

Accusative Case Remnants
As requested I'll start covering actual case usage [:D]. Out of the 3 outdated cases, the accusative is by far the least used and due to this it's probably associated with older texts more than the dative and genitive are for most speakers. Below are the remaining uses of the accusative in modern speech

-A large number of time expressions, particularly those with de ganse (the entire/whole), de heile (the whole), dis (this), jeder (each/every), lätster (last), & nächster (next), e.g: den gansen Harvst (the entire autumn), den heilen Namiddag (the whole afternoon), disen Morgen (this morning), jeden Dag (every day), lätsten Christavend (last Christmas Eve), nächsten Fruher (next spring)

-After the preposition bit (until) all of the accusative time expressions remain in the accusative e.g: bit nächsten Summer (until next Summer)

-The question word wen (whom) is still very commonly seen in the accusative when asking for the direct object, even more-so than English whom, e.g: "wen saags du?” (who did you see?)

-Similar to the above, the masculine accusative relative pronoun is still commonly used for the direct object, e.g: "de Mann, den ik sag" (the man that I saw)

-Personal pronouns, when not the subject of the sentence, are (with two exceptions) always encountered in their traditionally accusative case forms, e.g: "ik sag hin" (I saw him)

-Although its not commonly used in spoken language, jemand's accusative form (jemanden) is still commonly used to show syntax e.g: "jemanden tu helpen" (to help someone)
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 03:00

Dative Case Remnants
-Similar to the accusative, a large number of time expressions take the dative cases. Those that do are those involving the prepositions an (on), in (in), send (for), & voor (ago), e.g: am Tweiden (on the second), im April (in April), send einem Jare (for a year), voor drei Maanden (three months ago). Unlike the accusative time expressions, those not involving the contractions am and im can be replaced with the nominative in informal situations.

-The prepositions tu [tuː] (meaning to) and tu [tə] (meaning at) are always used with the dative. Because of a lack of knowledge of the dative, in informal speech these prepositions are often replaced with other prepositions such as up/an/in/nah outside of the well-known expressions which use them.

-After the prepositions in (when showing location) and van, non-neuter countries must be used in the dative except in very informal speech, e.g: in der Tschechischen Republik (in the Czech Republic); van der Sweits (from Switzerland)

-A huge number of dative expressions exist, particularly those involving location, including: nah Huse (at home), in meinem Herten (in my heart), tum Slotte (finally), nah meiner Meinung (in my opinion), in Fakte (in fact), in der Stad (in the city), tu Kope (for sale), voor allem (above all), am _ tu sein (to be -ing)

-The question word wem (to whom) is used for asking the indirect object, e.g: "wem gaavs du it?" (who did you give it to?)

-Similar to the above, the dative relative pronouns dem (masculine/neuter), der (feminine), and den (plural) are still commonly used for the indirect object, e.g: "de Mann, dem ik it koopte" (the man I bought it for) and "meine Muder, der it kald is" (my mom, who is cold)

-The personal pronouns he (he) and sie (they) maintain a dative case form "him" that is used for showing indirect objects e.g: "gaavs du it him?" (did you give it to him?)

-In quite formal speech, if plural and used without determiners or adjectives as an indirect object referring to people, the dative may be used e.g: "he gav it Bürgeren" (he gave it to citizens) rather than "he gav it Bürger"

-Although its not commonly used in spoken language, jemand's dative form (jemandem) is still commonly used to show syntax e.g: "jemandem jeet tu geven" (to give something to someone)
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 23:38

Genitive Case Remnants
-Like the other cases there are several genitive time expressions including des Nachts (in the night), des Summers (in the summer), eines Daags (one day/one of these days), eines Nachts (one of these nights)

-Some prepositions may be used with the genitive in very formal speech. Nowadays the genitive is replaced with van, e.g: onweg des/onweg van de (despite), plaats des/plaats van de (instead of), wegen des/wegen van de (because of). The only exception is the preposition durend (during) which drops the van

-Several other genitive expressions exist including des Huses (of the house), des Lands (in/of the country), des Werelds (in/of the world)

-The question words wes (masculine/neuter) and wer (feminine/plural) (whose) are commonly used for asking about possession e.g: "wes Hund is dat?" (whose dog is that?)

-The relative pronouns des (masculine/neuter) and der (feminine/plural) are also still commonly used "de Vrou, der Hus gell is" (the woman whose house is yellow)

-Pronouns and countries still commonly use the genitive to show possession. Aside from this, other words typically use the preposition van (of) or a his genitive construction but in very formal speech you may see the genitive elsewhere

-Commonly used for showing possession with family members and names, albeit with determiners/adjectives remaining in the nominative and the masculine singular ending being used with women and plural nouns e.g: Angelas (Angela's), meine Mutters (my mother's), mein Sohns (my son's), meine Sohns' (my sons'), meine Süsters (my sisters')

-Still often used in the names of artistic works

-The numbers two, three, and four all continue to use their genitive forms when not preceded by a determiner and being used to show possession, e.g: "ein Vater dreier Kinder" (a father of three kids). This formation is considered to be very formal though.

-Partitive adjectives take the genitive ending -es and occur after words and phrases like jeet (something), jemand (someone), neet (nothing), wat für (what kind of)
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Mon 29 Oct 2018, 00:39

Past & Present Perfect
Given the similarities to other West Germanic languages, I decided that it makes more sense for me to mostly cover differences between Lapdeutsch and German/Dutch instead of everything piece by piece like I normally do. I'll start off with covering the 2 different ways to form the past tense as well as the present perfect.

Simple Past
Unlike German, the simple past is typically viewed as the most neutral and common way to form the past tense and generally preferred for all levels of communication except for very informal speech. For weak verbs the conjugation is as follows:
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: -de
Second Person Singular: -des
Third Person Singular: -de

First Person Plural: -den
Second Person Plural: -det
Third Person Plural: -den
-d- becomes -t- after voiceless consonants
Strong verbs have a similar conjugation but remove the -de- and replace it with a change in the stem's vowel. Mixed verbs (of which there are 10) undergo vowel and or consonant changes in the stem but keep the regular weak verb endings. These verbs include seggen (say) which has the past tense stem of sai-. The final group of verbs, irregular verbs, consists of the modal verbs, dun (do), gahn (go), heven (have), sehn (see), sein/wesen (be), slahn (hit), stahn (stand), & wetten (know). These verbs have very irregular stems in the past but also have some irregularities in the present tense as well.


Present Perfect
The present perfect is formed very similar to how one might expect it to: a present-tense conjugated form of heven (for transitive verbs) or sein/wesen (for most intransitive verbs) followed by a past participle. All past participles begin with ge- (except for those beginning with inseparable prefixes and those from French) but have different endings depending on the verb type. For weak verbs the ending is -d or -t, for strong verbs it's -en, for mixed verbs it's -d or -t in addition to the past tense's vowel/consonant change, and for irregular verbs it simply has to be known. Below are the present tense conjugations of heven and sein/wesen that accompany the past participle.

Heven
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Hev
Second Person Singular: Hes
Third Person Singular: Het

First Person Plural: Heven
Second Person Plural: Heevt
Third Person Plural: Heven
Sein/Wesen
Spoiler:
First Person Singular: Bin
Second Person Singular: Bis
Third Person Singular: Is

First Person Plural: Sind
Second Person Plural: Seid/Weest (both commonly used but only weest can be used in questions and compound verbs)
Third Person Plural: Sind

Compound Past
This tense has no real direct equivalent in either Dutch or any variety of German in terms of meaning although its usage is partially based on upper dialects of Low German. Although it's existed in the language for a fairly long time, it has always been seen as very informal and "lesser" than the simple past. Efforts have been made to remove its existence, but only to varying degrees of success. In general, one uses the simple past in writing and in most forms of communication, but in fairly informal communication the compound past is more common. The compound past is formed very similarly to the present perfect, but removes ge- at the beginning, replacing it with an apostrophe in writing. There are a few irregularities:

1. Eten (to eat) has the past participle gegeten, but in the compound past has the participle 'eten rather than 'geten
2. Separable prefix verbs only remove the g- i.e: turugteigen (to report) has the past participle turuggeteggen, which becomes turug'eteggen in the compound past
3. Verbs which have ge- in all of their forms don't remove it
4. The verb werden, when being used to form the passive voice, has its participle geworden completely dropped in the compound past, leaving just the auxiliary verb sein/wesen. If context isn't clear enough to show that the verb is in the past, the simple past tense of werden may be used.
5. Even in the compound past a large number of verbs are still fairly commonly used in the simple past including all of the irregular verbs

Although the compound past is formed based on the present perfect, even in informal conversation these 2 tenses remained distinct compare:
Ik hev hin gesehn (I've seen him)
Ik hev hin 'sehn (I saw him)
Despite this distinction, the present perfect isn't that commonly used in conversations where one would even use the compound past but nevertheless the distinction does exist.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Fri 02 Nov 2018, 14:14

Adjectives
Traditional Adjective Endings
Traditionally adjectives were declined for case, gender and number, as well as having weak, mixed, and strong declensions. Weak declensions are used before words such as the definitive articles, sölke (such), alle (all), dise (this), jeder (every), unser (our), euer (your); mixed declensions are used before words such as the indefinite articles, the negative indefinite articles, soon (such a), jeen (that), mein (my), dein (your), sein (his/its), her (her); strong declensions are used when no determiner precedes the noun. These adjective endings have largely fallen out of use but occur in the case remnants still used in modern language. Adjectives not used attributively take no ending. From left to right: masculine, feminine, neuter, plural.
Spoiler:
Weak
Nominative: -e/-e/-e/-en
Accusative: -en/-e/-e/-en
Dative: -en/-en/-en/-en
Genitive: -en/-en/-en/-en

Mixed
Nominative: -e/-e/-/-e or -en
Accusative: -en/-e/-/-e or -en
Dative: -en/-en/-en/-en
Genitive: -en/-en/-en/-en

Strong
Nominative: -e/-e/-/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-/-e
Dative: -em/-er/-em/-en
Genitive: -en/-er/-en/-er
Modern Adjective Endings
Significantly decreased from the original case endings. Mixed and strong declensions have combined their declensions.
Weak:
-e/-e/-e/-en

Mixed/Strong:
-e/-e/-/-e

Irregularities
-The past participles of strong verbs, adjectives of materials ending in -en, and the adjectives eigen (own), tufreden (content/satisfied), and open (open) do not have any endings in nominative and accusative forms in the old case endings, and don't have any endings period in the modern adjective endings
-Adjectives ending in -e don't add another -e before adding endings
-Adjectives ending in -el/-er remove the -e from the stem
-Adjectives ending in -lik pronounce the -i as [ə]
-Many foreign adjectives, including many ending in -a and -o, don’t decline at all
-A few adjectives change their stems when endings are added. On the left is the endingless stem and the on the right is in the stem used with endings
Dwarch/Dwarr- Cross/crossways/across or slanted/askew/lopsided or stubborn/rebellious
Frou/Frouv- Happy/merry
Gell/Gelv- Yellow
Gaar/Gaarv- Ready/done/cooked
Hooch/Hoh- High
Lüll/Lütl- Few
Naach/Nah- Near/nearby
Nou/Nouv- Narrow/close
Rou/Rouv- Raw
Ruuch/Ruh- Rough
Schelch/Schell- Crosseyed/squinting
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Mon 05 Nov 2018, 13:34, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41

All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
This is a language I mentioned a few days ago about making a post on.
Yay! Glad to see you did!
Spoiler:
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
Lapdeutsch is a Germanic language spoken in parts of Germany and Netherlands. Its name refers not to any particular place but rather to the German word "Lappen" meaning rags as the language was traditionally viewed as an uneducated form of German. Despite this, the language shares not only a lot in common with Standard German, but also standard Dutch.
Oh, interesting! My first thought when I saw the name was that a West Germanic language had somehow ended up in northern Scandinavia.

Would you consider Lapdeutsch a Low German variety? Have you considered who the speakers are or how many there are?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
The most notable feature of the language (and the main reason why I’ve created it) is that while cases for the most part are no longer really used in spoken language, due to a combination of fossilization and an effort on the behalf of grammarians to preserve outdated features, remnants of the case system are very common in pronouns, expressions (such as "in der Dad" meaning indeed or "tu Kope" meaning for sale) as well as in a very limited number of grammatical structures that are sometimes still kind of productive, albeit formal.
This is a neat concept!

Also, my brain can't help but interpret "in der Dad" as "in the dad".
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng~n>
Is the velar nasal a distinct phoneme? If so, what is its distribution like?

Oh, and is /r/ truly [r]?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
/f v s z ʃ ç h/ <f~v w~v s~ss s sch ch h>
Are, for example, initial <st-> clusters pronounced [st] or [ʃt]?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
/t͡s t͡ʃ/ <ts~z tsch>
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
/œʏ̯ ɛɪ̯ ɔʊ̯ aɪ̯/ <eu~öu ei ou ai~ay>
Is there anything in particular that determines the spellings of /t͡s œʏ̯ aɪ̯/?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
/ə/ <e~u~i~ei~ie>
Interesting! The range of spellings for the schwa, that is!
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
/b d z/ are devoiced at the end of words and before consonants other than /b d g z v/
How is the <pd> in the language's name realized?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
Word final /ɡ/ (or compound final in compound words) becomes /ç/. After front vowels [ɣ] becomes [ʝ].
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
/ç/ is pronounced as [x] after [uː oː] and [χ] after all other back vowels
Is final /g/ always [ç], even after non-front vowels?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 18:09
/ɛː/ is almost always realized as [eː]. It's only pronounced as [ɛː] in the name of the letter <ä>, when giving the spelling pronunciation of a word, and in very careful speech that's almost only used by people in the media.
Interesting! So Lapdeutsch is used in the media?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Tue 16 Oct 2018, 00:13
Genitive Singular: -s or -es
For nouns that have two possible genitive singular endings, are there any particular factors that condition the use of -s vs. -es? It seems like only -es can be used for nouns ending in -s, but either ending can be used for other nouns. Is that true?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Tue 16 Oct 2018, 18:56
Irregular Declensions
Similar to the last question, for the nouns in this category that have two possible plural forms for each case, are there any discernible reasons why an individual speaker might choose one over another, beyond personal preference?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Thu 18 Oct 2018, 14:33
-A large number of time expressions, particularly those with de ganse (the entire/whole), de heile (the whole), dis (this), jeder (each/every), lätster (last), & nächster (next), e.g: den gansen Harvst (the entire autumn), den heilen Namiddag (the whole afternoon), disen Morgen (this morning), jeden Dag (every day), lätsten Christavend (last Christmas Eve), nächsten Fruher (next spring)
All4Ɇn wrote:
Sun 21 Oct 2018, 03:00
-Similar to the accusative, a large number of time expressions take the dative cases. Those that do are those involving the prepositions an (on), in (in), send (for), & voor (ago), e.g: am Tweiden (on the second), im April (in April), send einem Jare (for a year), voor drei Maanden (three months ago). Unlike the accusative time expressions, those not involving the contractions am and im can be replaced with the nominative in informal situations.
All4Ɇn wrote:
Tue 23 Oct 2018, 23:38
-Several other genitive expressions exist including des Huses (of the house), des Lands (in/of the country), des Werelds (in/of the world)
Not really relevant, but I particularly like the way "Harvst", "Namiddag", "Christavend", "Tweiden", "Maanden", and "Werelds" look.

(And "de ganse" makes me think "the goose".)
All4Ɇn wrote:
Sun 21 Oct 2018, 03:00
-The prepositions tu [tuː] (meaning to) and tu [tə] (meaning at) are always used with the dative. Because of a lack of knowledge of the dative, in informal speech these prepositions are often replaced with other prepositions such as up/an/in/nah outside of the well-known expressions which use them.
Could you potentially elaborate a little more on what you mean here?

Interesting how they're spelled the same!
All4Ɇn wrote:
Tue 23 Oct 2018, 23:38
-Still often used in the names of artistic works
I enjoyed reading about all the remaining uses of the accusative, dative, and genitive, but this one might be my favorite, for some reason.

I think you mentioned that there are still some noun declensions that haven't been covered? I'd be interested in hearing about those, as well as more about the language's pronoun system, if you'd be interested in covering them.
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 29 Oct 2018, 00:39
Given the similarities to other West Germanic languages, I decided that it makes more sense for me to mostly cover differences between Lapdeutsch and German/Dutch instead of everything piece by piece like I normally do. I'll start off with covering the 2 different ways to form the past tense as well as the present perfect.
Makes sense!
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 29 Oct 2018, 00:39
Unlike German, the simple past is typically viewed as the most neutral and common way to form the past tense and generally preferred for all levels of communication except for very informal speech.
Interesting!
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 29 Oct 2018, 00:39
-d- becomes -t- after voiceless consonants
In spelling as well as pronunciation?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 29 Oct 2018, 00:39
Mixed verbs (of which there are 10) undergo vowel and or consonant changes in the stem but keep the regular weak verb endings. These verbs include seggen (say) which has the past tense stem of sai-.
What are the other 9, if I might ask?
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 29 Oct 2018, 00:39
The present perfect is formed very similar to how one might expect it to: a present-tense conjugated form of heven (for transitive verbs) or sein/wesen (for most intransitive verbs) followed by a past participle. All past participles begin with ge- (except for those beginning with inseparable prefixes and those from French) but have different endings depending on the verb type. For weak verbs the ending is -d or -t, for strong verbs it's -en, for mixed verbs it's -d or -t in addition to the past tense's vowel/consonant change, and for irregular verbs it simply has to be known.
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 29 Oct 2018, 00:39
Second Person Plural: Seid/Weest (both commonly used but only weest can be used in questions, nouns, and compound verbs)
Interesting!
All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 29 Oct 2018, 00:39
Compound Past
This tense has no real direct equivalent in either Dutch or any variety of German in terms of meaning although its usage is partially based on upper dialects of Low German. Although it's existed in the language for a fairly long time, it has always been seen as very informal and "lesser" than the simple past. Efforts have been made to remove its existence, but only to varying degrees of success. In general, one uses the simple past in writing and in most forms of communication, but in fairly informal communication the compound past is more common. The compound past is formed very similarly to the present perfect, but removes ge- at the beginning, replacing it with an apostrophe in writing. There are a few irregularities:
Whoa!
All4Ɇn wrote:
Fri 02 Nov 2018, 14:14
Traditionally adjectives were declined for case, gender and number, as well as having weak, mixed, and strong declensions. Weak declensions are used before words such as the definitive articles, sölke (such), alle (all), dise (this), jeder (every), unser (our), euer (your); mixed declensions are used before words such as the indefinite articles, the negative indefinite articles, soon (such a), jeen (that), mein (my), dein (your), sein (his/its), and her (her); strong declensions are used when no determiner precedes the noun. These adjective endings have largely fallen out of use but occur in the case remnants still used in modern language. Adjectives not used attributively take no ending. From left to right: masculine, feminine, neuter, plural.
All4Ɇn wrote:
Fri 02 Nov 2018, 14:14
Mixed
Nominative: -e/-e/-/-e or -en
Accusative: -en/-e/-/-e or -en
Dative: -en/-en/-en/-en
Genitive: -en/-en/-en/-en
All4Ɇn wrote:
Fri 02 Nov 2018, 14:14
Irregularities
Interesting! Similar to questions I've asked above, is there any particular reason why someone might use either -e or -en for the nominative/accusative plural here?
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 04 Nov 2018, 23:21

Thanks for all the great questions and comments Shimo!
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Would you consider Lapdeutsch a Low German variety? Have you considered who the speakers are or how many there are?
I wouldn't consider it a Low German variety but rather a Weser-Rhine Germanic language with significant influence from Low German. Not sure how many speakers there would be but it definitely wouldn't be an endangered language.
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Is the velar nasal a distinct phoneme? If so, what is its distribution like?
As a phoneme it only exists as the realization of /ng/. /nk nx/ are also pronounced as /ŋk ŋx/
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Oh, and is /r/ truly [r]?
Yep!
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Are, for example, initial <st-> clusters pronounced [st] or [ʃt]
[st]
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Is there anything in particular that determines the spellings of /t͡s œʏ̯ aɪ̯/?
/t͡s/ is only spelled as <z> in German loanwords and is also sometimes spelled <t> in French and Latin loanwords like Demokratie. /œʏ̯/ is only spelled as <öu> when the phoneme /ɔʊ̯/ undergoes an umlaut, which is fairly rare such as fröulik (cheerful) which comes from frou (merry). In native words only the spelling <ai> is used for /aɪ̯/ but ay may be seen in loanwords and names such as Bayeren (Bavaria).
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
How is the <pd> in the language's name realized?
[pd]
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Is final /g/ always [ç], even after non-front vowels?
If you look back at it I said final /g/ became /ç/ not [ç] [;)]
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Interesting! So Lapdeutsch is used in the media?
I'd imagine so. Even if it may potentially not have that much of a presence. I haven't decided yet.
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
For nouns that have two possible genitive singular endings, are there any particular factors that condition the use of -s vs. -es? It seems like only -es can be used for nouns ending in -s, but either ending can be used for other nouns. Is that true?
The -es ending can be used for any single syllable noun and is mandatory after nouns ending in -s/-z/-sch, while -s is used for all other nouns. The choice between -es/-s with single syllable nouns I think would depend on personal preference, with -s being more common when spoken but -es being more common in writing, especially in words such as Stad where the spelling would have to be changed in the genitive stem to Staads. In cases like that I'd imagine the -es ending would be more common in writing as no spelling changes would have to take place to the stem (Stades). Genitive expressions like eines Dags can only take the -s ending though.
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Similar to the last question, for the nouns in this category that have two possible plural forms for each case, are there any discernible reasons why an individual speaker might choose one over another, beyond personal preference?
For Junge and Sohn it's up to personal preference. Jungs and Sohns are by far the most common, but Jungen and Söhne are seen as being technically more correct and are the preferred forms in formal speech. I've also decided to add the noun Kerl, with its plurals Kerle and Kerls to this group. [:)]

For Mann, formal speech maintains a distinction between Mann (used after numerals to show the size of a group) and Männer (used everywhere else). In informal speech this distinction isn't as clearcut but in general Mann is used numerals while Männer can be used anywhere.

For Brain, the typical plural is Braine. The plural Brains actually caries a different meaning and refers to brains in the sense of either meat or intellect. It can also be used as an insult, implying someone's brain is that of an animal's, e.g: Wend deine Brains an! "use your brain!"
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Could you potentially elaborate a little more on what you mean here?
Unlike all other prepositions, even in modern speech the prepositions tu [tuː] and tu [tə] have to take the dative case. Even now they'd sound really weird if used with the nominative. However a lot of Lapdeutsch speakers, especially less educated ones, don't know the ins and outs of the dative, especially as it relates to adjectives. Thus, rather than incorrectly use the dative, it's far more common to simply replace these prepositions with others such as up/an/in/nah, except in the large variety of very common dative expressions which use tu [tuː] and tu [tə].
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
I enjoyed reading about all the remaining uses of the accusative, dative, and genitive, but this one might be my favorite, for some reason.
Glad to hear it [:D]
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
I think you mentioned that there are still some noun declensions that haven't been covered? I'd be interested in hearing about those, as well as more about the language's pronoun system, if you'd be interested in covering them.

Well noun declensions are all covered for the most part. I was referring to pronouns and determiners as far as undiscussed declensions go.
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
In spelling as well as pronunciation?
Yep!
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
What are the other 9, if I might ask?
Sorry just realized I miscounted. There's actually 13 mixed verbs:
Brennen (Brannd-): Burn
Bringen (Bracht-): Bring
Bruken (Brucht-): Need
Denken (Dacht-): Think
Dünken (Ducht-): Seem
Kennen (Kannd-): Know
Nömmen (Nammd-): Call
Plegen (Placht-): Do Habitually or Nurse
Rennen (Rannd-): Run
Seggen (Said-)- Say
Senden (Sandd-): Send
Süken (Sucht-): Look For
Wenden (Wandd-): Turn
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Whoa!
I take it you like the idea? [:)]
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 16:41
Interesting! Similar to questions I've asked above, is there any particular reason why someone might use either -e or -en for the nominative/accusative plural here?
Which ending someone uses in this case generally depends on the year of the text in question. In older texts the mixed declension was seen as being closer to the weak declension and thus -en was typically used. As time went on the mixed became more associated with the strong declension and -e became more common. Grammarians at the time, as well as some now, argued that using -e was incorrect and for -en to be used instead. Thus even in newer texts you might still see -en being used, albeit rarely.
Last edited by All4Ɇn on Tue 13 Nov 2018, 22:50, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Lapdeutsch

Post by All4Ɇn » Thu 08 Nov 2018, 08:27

Determiners
Hopefully I'm not posting too much. Just quite a fan of Lapdeutsch's determiners.

Definite Article
Also used as relative pronouns
Nominative: De/Die/Dat/Die
Accusative: Den/Die/Dat/Die
Dative: Dem/Der/Dem/Den
Genitive: Des/Der/Des/Der

In addition to the definite articles, there are also the words dejene (he who, she who, that which, the one who, etc.) and deselve (the same) which decline the same as the definite articles followed by weak adjectives.


De Words
These determiners/pronouns get their name from taking endings similar to the definite articles. Adjectives following them take the weak endings.
Nominative: -e/-e/-/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-/-e
Dative: -em/-er/-em/-en
Genitive: -es/-er/-es/-er

Determiners With This Declension
Alle- All (underlined form all if before a determiner or pronoun)
Dise- This
Enige- Some
Manige- Many (a)/much (undeclined form manig if before an adjective)
Sölke- Such
Welke- Which


Jeder Words
A small set of determiners/pronouns are identical to the de words outside of the nominative singular. Adjectives following them take the weak endings.
Nominative: -er/-e/-/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-/-e
Dative: -em/-er/-em/-en
Genitive: -es/-er/-es/-er

Determiners With This Declension
Euer- Your (plural)
Jeder- Each/every
Unser- Our


Ein Words
These determiners get their name from taking the same endings as the indefinite articles. Adjectives following them take the mixed endings.
Nominative: -/-e/-/-e
Accusative: -en/-e/-/-e
Dative: -em/-er/-em/-en
Genitive: -es/-er/-es/-er

Determiners With This Declension
Chein- Negative indefinite article
Dein- Your (singular)
Ein- Indefinite article
Éin- One
Her- Her/their
Jeen- That/yonder
Mein- My
Sein- His/its
Soon- Such a


Veel Words
These determiners are underlined if singular but follow normal declension rules if plural. Adjectives following them take the strong endings.
Nominative: -/-/-/-e
Accusative: -/-/-/-e
Dative: -/-/-/-en
Genitive: -/-/-/-er

Determiners With This Declension
Meer- More
Soveel- So much
Veel- Much/a lot
Wenig- Few
Woveel- How much


Beidet (Both)
This word occurs as a pronoun in both the singular and plural but only in the plural when used as a determiner. The singular form is always used for two situations or two choices and can be used with objects, and when doing so treats them as a collective whole. The plural is always used for people and can also be used for objects.

Nominative: Beidet/Beide
Accusative: Beidet/Beide
Dative: Beidem/Beiden
Genitive: Beides/Beider

Unlike other determiners/pronouns Beide has a unique mixed/weak form beiden which occurs after other determiners in all 4 cases. Note that even though the mixed declension in modern language takes the ending -e, the mixed form of beide remains beiden. Whether or not it is preceded by another determiner, all adjectives following beide take the weak endings.


Numerals
Twei (Two)
Unlike all other words used attributively, this one maintains a distinction between the genders in the plural. Adjectives following take the weak endings.
Nominative: Twein/Two/Twei
Accusative: Twein/Two/Twei
Dative: Tweien
Genitive: Tweier

Drei (Three) & Vier (Four)
Adjectives following take the strong endings
Nominative: Drei and Vier
Accusative: Drei and Vier
Dative: Dreien and Vieren
Genitive: Dreier and Vierer

Numerals Above Vier
All numerals above vier are underlined. Adjectives following them take the strong endings.


Vowel Reduction
Vowel reduction is particularly common in unstressed determiners:
-The vowel in all definite articles is pronounced as /ə/. Thus unstressed de and die are pronounced the same
-For chein, ein (but not éin which is always stressed), mein, dein, sein, her, and unser the vowel is pronounced as /ə/.
-The endingless forms ein, chein, mein, dein, and sein are often further simplified to just ei' /ə/, chei' /çə/, mei' /mə/, dei' /də/, and sei' /zə/
-Eine is often further reduced to just 'ne /nə/
-When used before a pronoun or determiner, undeclined all is pronounced /əl/
-Endlingless dis is pronounced as /dɪs/ when stressed in contrast to the other forms which pronounce the stem as /diːz/. When unstressed, endingless dis is further reduced to just /dəs/
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