Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 23 Jan 2018, 19:24

gestaltist wrote:
Tue 23 Jan 2018, 00:29
Creyeditor wrote:
Mon 22 Jan 2018, 22:50
I thought about a phonology were every segment corresponds to a semantic primitive in Natural Semantic Metalanguage. This means I need about 50 segments. I also thought that prosodic constituents, like words or syllable correspond to sentences or clauses in NSM. This means that probably every segment should have a vowel and a consonant allophone, so that it easy to build syllables. This is the basic vowel inventory.

/i u/
/e ə o/
/ɛ a ɔ/

Every vowel can occur in different versions, exemplified for /i/. Nasalized, breathy voiced, long vowels all contrast.
/i iː ĩ ĩː i̤ i̤ː ĩ̤ ĩ̤ː/

Consonants allophones of each segment are determined by the phonological features. Every vowel position corresponds to a place of articulation.
/i/ = palatal
/e/ = dental
/ə/ = alveolar
/ɛ/ = velar
/u/= bilabial
/o/ = retroflex
/ɔ/ = uvular/pharyngeal
/a/ = glottal

Long vowels have continuant/resonant allophones, nasalized vowels have prenasalized stops/nasal stops allophones, breathy vowels have voiced consonant allophones. And I am getting tired, so no more details...
I feel like it'd be easier to find 50 consonant phonemes and have vowel placement be epenthetic and predictable. A cool idea BTW.
This kind of feedback really keeps my conlanging going [:)] Epenthesis would maybe work by abandonging the syllable all together as a meaningfull unit OR by allowing semisyllables (what is usually part of a sequisyllable in natlangs). Maybe I'll develop it further anymore.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 24 Jan 2018, 00:08

Double post:
I actually did it and translated a sentence into the NSM-oligo-idea.

Here is the glossed example:

/Oca̤ʈẽ, ɖĩː θĩː ɲ̊ẽʈiː/
o-c-a̤-ʈ-ẽ, ɖ-ĩː θ-ĩː ɲ̊-ẽ-ʈ-iː
someone-do-something-someone-else. Because-this, after-this, this-other-someone-die.
"Someone killed someone else."

Just wanted to mention that the number of words is the same as in English and the syllable count is very similar at least. If you compare this to Wikipedia, keep in mind that my language has pragmatics. People will get the idea that if someone died, obviously something happened to him and obviously dying usually happens to your body.
If you want to see how I arrived at this example take a look inside the spoiler.
Spoiler:
Map the vowel inventory to a scale from 1-64

Vowels
/i iː ĩ ĩː i̤ i̤ː ĩ̤ ĩ̤ː/
i i i i i i i i (1-8)
u u u u u u u u (9-16)
e e e e e e e e (17-24)
ə ə ə ə ə ə ə ə (25-32
o o o o o o o o (33-40)
ɛ ɛ ɛ ɛ ɛ ɛ ɛ ɛ (41-48)
a a a a a a a a (49-56)
ɔ ɔ ɔ ɔ ɔ ɔ ɔ ɔ (57-64)


Make sure the translation to consonants is clear


/i iː ĩ ĩː i̤ i̤ː ĩ̤ ĩ̤ː/
/t̠͡ɕ ɕ ⁿc ɲ̊ d̠͡ʑ j ⁿɟ ɲ/
/p f ⁿp m̊ b w ⁿb m/
/t̪ θ ⁿt̪ n̪̊ d̪ ð ⁿd̪ n̪/
/t͡s s ⁿt n̊ d͡z l ⁿd n/
/ʈ͡ʂ ʂ ⁿʈ ɳ̊ ɖ͡ʐ ɻ ⁿɖ ɳ/
/k x ⁿk ŋ̊ g ɣ ⁿg ŋ/
/q ħ ⁿk ɴ̊ ɢ ʕ ⁿɢ ɴ/
/ʔ h ʔ̃ h̃ ʔ̤ ɦ ʔ̤̃ ɦ̃/

Decided for (C)V structure (only wordinitial onsetless syllables) to make it more pronounceable


Generate a random number (from one to 64) for each term in NSM and map it to a segment (allophonic consonant vowel pair) identified by its index on the scale. Make sure no segment is used twice. The list is taken from Wierzbicka (2009).

Substantives:
I, : 23 :
YOU, : 24 :
SOMEONE, : 33 : /ʈ͡ʂ~o/
SOMETHING/THING, : 53 : /ɢ~a̤/
PEOPLE, : 47 :
BODY : 6 :

Relational substantives:
KIND, : 58 :
PART : 29 :

Determiners:
THIS, : 4 :
THE SAME, : 37 :
OTHER/ELSE : 19 :

Quantifiers:
ONE, : 14 :
TWO, : 62 :
MUCH/MANY, : 10 :
SOME, : 41 :
ALL : 17 :

Evaluators:
GOOD, : 28 :
BAD : 61 :

Descriptors:
BIG, : 49 :
SMALL : 5 :

Mental predicates:
THINK, : 59 :
KNOW, : 36 :
WANT, : 56 :
FEEL, : 26 :
SEE, : 7 :
HEAR : 46 :

Speech:
SAY, : 34 :
WORDS, : 44:
TRUE : :

Actions, events, movement, contact:
DO, : 1 : /i~c/
HAPPEN, : 48 :
MOVE, : 45 :
TOUCH : 8 :

Location, existence, possession, specification:
BE (SOMEWHERE), : 60
THERE IS/EXIST, : 39 :
HAVE, : 51 :
BE (SOMEONE/SOMETHING) : 35 :

Life and death:
LIVE, : 43 :
DIE : 2 :

Time:
WHEN/TIME, : 9 :
NOW, : 37 :
BEFORE, : 3 :
AFTER, : 18 :
A LONG TIME, : 28 :
A SHORT TIME, : 13 :
FOR SOME TIME, : 31 :
MOMENT [IN ONE MOMENT] : 27 :

Space:
WHERE/PLACE, : 15 :
HERE, : 50 :
ABOVE, : 21 :
BELOW, : 42 :
FAR, : 12 :
NEAR, : 52 :
SIDE [ON ONE SIDE], 25 :
INSIDE : 54 :

Logical concepts:
NOT, : 22 :
MAYBE, : 40 :
CAN, : 16 :
BECAUSE, : 38 :
IF : 20 :

Augmentor, intensifier:
VERY, : 20 :
MORE : 32 :

Similarity:
LIKE : 11 :


Search for an example of NSM that means something. Take the example from Wikipedia. Simplify it to make sense of it.


Someone X killed someone Y:
someone X did something to someone else Y.
because of this, after this Y died.

Use this as a glossing for your translation. Do the glossing, but don't use affricates, they require to much effort to write. Don't forget to map the NSM-constituents (subclause, clause and explanation) to your constituents (word, subclause, clause).

/Oca̤ʈẽ, ɖĩː θĩː ɲ̊ẽʈiː/
o-c-a̤-ʈ-ẽ, ɖ-ĩː θ-ĩː ɲ̊-ẽ-ʈ-iː
someone-do-something-someone-else. Because-this, after-this, this-other-someone-die.
"Someone killed someone else."
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Vlürch » Fri 26 Jan 2018, 18:57

Creyeditor wrote:
Wed 24 Jan 2018, 00:08
/Oca̤ʈẽ, ɖĩː θĩː ɲ̊ẽʈiː/
o-c-a̤-ʈ-ẽ, ɖ-ĩː θ-ĩː ɲ̊-ẽ-ʈ-iː
someone-do-something-someone-else. Because-this, after-this, this-other-someone-die.
"Someone killed someone else."

Just wanted to mention that the number of words is the same as in English and the syllable count is very similar at least. If you compare this to Wikipedia, keep in mind that my language has pragmatics. People will get the idea that if someone died, obviously something happened to him and obviously dying usually happens to your body.
If you want to see how I arrived at this example take a look inside the spoiler.
That's... that's some really strange and complicated stuff. I don't understand pretty much anything from inside the spoiler, but seems awesome! [B)]

~

Imagine if there was a language that required you to physically bite through your own tongue. Would you speak it? I wouldn't, but there is a way to transcribe it in IPA: [t̼͆]. The first and last word you would say would be [t̼͆ᵊʙ̰ɑ̰ː], meaning "why am I doing this!?", followed by a trip to the nearest hospital where you get the tip of your tongue sewn back.

~

I'm proud of this pretty weird and absolutely disgusting inventory, I'll probably use it for something:

/m ɱ̊ n ɳ ŋ/ <m mh n ṇ ṅ>
/t̼ ʔ/ <tp ɔ>
/k͡p g͡b k͡t g͡d/ <kp kt gd>
/p̎ʷ t͈ʷ k͈ʷ q̎ʷ/ <pw tw kw qw>
/pʼ tʼ kʼ qʼ/ <p t k q>
/ɓ ᶑ ɠ/ <b d g>
/p͡xʰ~pʰː t͡xʰ~tʰː k͡xʰ~kʰː/ <ph th kh>
/q͡χʼ/ <qh>
/t͡s t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ <z č j>
/t͡sʰː/ <ts>
/ʈ͡ʂʼ/ <tr>
/s ʃ/ <s š>
/sʼ/ <ṡ>
/f v j x~χ ɣ~ʁ ħ ʕ h/ <f v y x ġ ḥ c h>
/x͡θ~χ͡s/ <ẋ>
/r ʀ/ <r ṙ>
/r̥ʰ~ɽ͡r̥/ <rh>
/d͡r q͡ʀ̥/ <dr qr>
/ʡ͡ʜʼ/ <ċ>
/p͡ʟ̝̊ ʈ͡ɭ̝̊ c͡ʎ̝̊/ <bḷ dḷ gḷ>
/p͡ɬʼ t͡ɬʼ k͡ʟ̝̊ʼ/ <pḷ tḷ kḷ>
/l ɬ/ <l ḷ>
/ɭ̆/ <ṛ>

/ɑ e i u/ <a e i u>
/ɑə̯ əɑ̯ ɪɘ̯ ɘɪ̯ ʊə̯ əʊ̯/ <ae ea ie ei ue eu>
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Creyeditor » Fri 26 Jan 2018, 23:36

Vlürch wrote:
Fri 26 Jan 2018, 18:57
Creyeditor wrote:
Wed 24 Jan 2018, 00:08
/Oca̤ʈẽ, ɖĩː θĩː ɲ̊ẽʈiː/
o-c-a̤-ʈ-ẽ, ɖ-ĩː θ-ĩː ɲ̊-ẽ-ʈ-iː
someone-do-something-someone-else. Because-this, after-this, this-other-someone-die.
"Someone killed someone else."

Just wanted to mention that the number of words is the same as in English and the syllable count is very similar at least. If you compare this to Wikipedia, keep in mind that my language has pragmatics. People will get the idea that if someone died, obviously something happened to him and obviously dying usually happens to your body.
If you want to see how I arrived at this example take a look inside the spoiler.
That's... that's some really strange and complicated stuff. I don't understand pretty much anything from inside the spoiler, but seems awesome! [B)]
Thank you [:)]
I just noticed that I was tired again at that point, so my explanation doesn't make to much sense [:D]

Vlürch wrote:
Fri 26 Jan 2018, 18:57
Imagine if there was a language that required you to physically bite through your own tongue. Would you speak it? I wouldn't, but there is a way to transcribe it in IPA: [t̼͆]. The first and last word you would say would be [t̼͆ᵊʙ̰ɑ̰ː], meaning "why am I doing this!?", followed by a trip to the nearest hospital where you get the tip of your tongue sewn back.
An interdental plosive with dental percussion, hmm? Probably only one word sentences then [xP]
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Vlürch » Sat 27 Jan 2018, 13:47

Creyeditor wrote:
Fri 26 Jan 2018, 23:36
An interdental plosive with dental percussion, hmm? Probably only one word sentences then [xP]
Linguolabial + dentolabial, actually. Both the tongue and bottom teeth touch the upper lip, which is of course not possible without biting all the way through the tongue.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Parlox » Mon 29 Jan 2018, 02:34

A phoneme inventory i thought of,

/m mʰ mʲ n nʰ nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/
/p b ɓ pʰ pʲ t d ɗ tʰ tʲ tʷ dʷ k g ɠ kʰ kʲ kʷ gʷ q ɢ qʰ ʛ g͡b ɠ͡ɓ/
/t͡ʃ d͡ʒ t͡ʃʰ t͡ʃʲ ʈ͡ʂ ɖ͡ʐ ʈ͡ʂʰ/
/s z sʰ sʲ sʷ zʷ ʃ ʒ ʃʰ ʃʲ ʃʷ ʒʷ/
/f v fʲ θ ð θʲ θʷ ðʷ x ɣ xʲ h hʲ/
/ⱱ ⱱʲ/
/l/
/b͡ʘ ǃ͡g ǃ͡k ǃ˞͡g ǃ˞͡k k͡ʘ g͡ʘ ŋ͡ʘ q͡ʘ ɢ͡ʘ ǃ˞͡ʘ/
/i iː ɯ ɯː
/e eː ɤ ɤː/
/ɛ ɛː ʌ ʌː
/a aː ɑ ɑː/

An a possible orthography(Its supposed to be crazy).

/m mh my n nh ny ṉ ṉy/
/p b ḇ ph py t d ḏ th ty tw dw k g ḵ kh ky kw gw q j qh q̄ gb ḵq̄/
/c c̣ ch cy cc c̣c̣ cch/
/s z sh sy sw zw ṡ ẓ ṡh ṡy ṡw ẓw/
/f v fy ṭ ḍ ṭy ṭw ḍw ḥ ḥḥ ḥy h hy/
/ṿ ṿy/
/l/
/bḅ ṱg ṱk ṱrg ṱrk kḅ gḅ ṉḅ qḅ jḅ ṱrḅ/
/i ii u uu/
/e ee o oo/
/é éé ó óó/
/a aa á áá/

The working name for this language is Kuukṱgakuabḅ [kɯːkǃ͡gakɯab͡ʘ/
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » Tue 30 Jan 2018, 15:22

/p t k kʷ/
/t͡s’ k͡x’ k͡xʷ’ ʔ/
/s x xʷ h/
/m n/
/w l j/

/i u/
/e o/
/a/

Syllable structure is CV(C), where coda consonants are restricted to /s m n l/.

There is a word-tone system where a word has either a level, rising, falling or rising-falling contour.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Oneiros K » Tue 30 Jan 2018, 21:32

I have the idea for a language with a small phoneme inventory amongst it basic morphemes which has a large phoneme inventory due to sound assimilation between morpheme boundaries in compound words.

The basic morphemes of the language have the structure CVC
with consonants
p t k ʔ
f s h
m
r
and vowels
a i u

In compound words the coda of the first morpheme and the onset of the following morpheme merge.
The table below lists the sounds resulting from the assimilations.
The blue row lists the coda of the first morpheme, the yellow column lists the onset of the following morpheme.

Vˤ indicates a vowel lowered in vicinity to pharyngeal consonants.
V: {a, i, u}
Vˤ: {ɑ, e, o}

Image
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Oneiros K » Tue 30 Jan 2018, 21:36

Embedding of the table didn't work out, so this is the corresponding link.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aKeh5I ... sp=sharing
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by LinguoFranco » Tue 30 Jan 2018, 23:14

Well, here is a new phoneme set I'm working on with romanization. I'm satisfied for the most part, but there are some things I'm not sure about and need to work out. My coda consonants used to be /n t k l ʔ/, but I want to try something different to find the sound that I like. I know the vowel system isn't that uncommon, but I think it is a little too simple. I also don't know if I want voiced plosives or aspirated plosives. I know I can technically like both, but I want to keep the plosive inventory to a smallish medium. The syllable structure is (C)V(C). You can't really tell by the font, but /x/ is actually supposed to be the uvular fricative.

Does this phoneme set and the way syllables are constructed invoke a certain kind of "sound" to you?

What would you change?

/a e i o/ <a e i o>
/t d k g ʔ/ <t d k g ‘>
/m n ɲ/ <m n ny>
/s ʃ χ/ <s x h>
/l ɾ j/ <l r y>
/tʃ dʒ/ <c j>

Codas: /n r χ ʃ ʔ/
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 30 Jan 2018, 23:18

Oneiros K wrote:
Tue 30 Jan 2018, 21:32
I have the idea for a language with a small phoneme inventory amongst it basic morphemes which has a large phoneme inventory due to sound assimilation between morpheme boundaries in compound words.

The basic morphemes of the language have the structure CVC
with consonants
p t k ʔ
f s h
m
r
and vowels
a i u

In compound words the coda of the first morpheme and the onset of the following morpheme merge.
The table below lists the sounds resulting from the assimilations.
The blue row lists the coda of the first morpheme, the yellow column lists the onset of the following morpheme.

Vˤ indicates a vowel lowered in vicinity to pharyngeal consonants.
V: {a, i, u}
Vˤ: {ɑ, e, o}

Image
The derived large phoneme inventory would probably be best called 'sound inventory' or 'phone inventory'.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Oneiros K » Tue 30 Jan 2018, 23:46

The derived large phoneme inventory would probably be best called 'sound inventory' or 'phone inventory'.
Yeah, true... My first idea was to make all this distinctions phonemic, but some turned out to be allophones instead of phonemes.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by katálgk » Thu 01 Feb 2018, 11:54

LinguoFranco wrote:
Tue 30 Jan 2018, 23:14
Does this phoneme set and the way syllables are constructed invoke a certain kind of "sound" to you?

What would you change?

/a e i o/ <a e i o>
/t d k g ʔ/ <t d k g ‘>
/m n ɲ/ <m n ny>
/s ʃ χ/ <s x h>
/l ɾ j/ <l r y>
/tʃ dʒ/ <c j>

Codas: /n r χ ʃ ʔ/
I like it! It feels like a kind of mini-Navajo to me, so maybe throw in some nasal vowels?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by sangi39 » Thu 01 Feb 2018, 21:12

First attempt ever at click-containing phoneme inventory:

Image

It's predominantly inspired by Hadza and Taa, but I've gone for lateral affricates instead of postalveolar affricates as the pulmonic counterpart to the lateral clicks, mostly because I want to have some more diverse correspondences in any daughter languages.

I've not looked into the vowels or phonotactics yet, but I think this might be a good start.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Creyeditor » Fri 02 Feb 2018, 00:03

Well this would be interesting even without the clicks
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by sangi39 » Sat 03 Feb 2018, 19:30

Creyeditor wrote:
Fri 02 Feb 2018, 00:03
Well this would be interesting even without the clicks
Thanks [:)] One of my plans is to have some of the daughter languages to actually lose clicks entirely in various ways.

I also want clicks to appear in more locations than they do on Earth, appearing as phonemes in two or three continents on Yantas and quite far apart from each other (my thinking at the moment is the northern mountainous areas of eastern Arenda, the eastern coast of the Bridge, and possibly Velkasta as well), appearing in more languages as well (so nothing like "a Velkastan Damin", but a number of languages in Velkasta using phonemic clicks in everyday use).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Creyeditor » Sun 04 Feb 2018, 19:03

Do you also want to have several independent click-o-genesises?
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by sangi39 » Sun 04 Feb 2018, 19:53

Creyeditor wrote:
Sun 04 Feb 2018, 19:03
Do you also want to have several independent click-o-genesises?
I'm considering how exactly I want to do that. At least for the inventory above, that's as far back as I want to go, so it's a case of "has had clicks as far back as we can reconstruct". Languages belonging to other families in the surrounding area might gain clicks through borrowing and possibly through the use of clicks as an avoidance feature.

As for elsewhere, I'm not entirely sure. It would definitely be cool to try out developing clicks in a family that descends from a language which didn't have clicks at all, I suppose mostly through consonant clusters. On the other hand, I might also try adding clicks to the phoneme inventories of some languages, with the proto-language have a limited number of clicks, with some languages gaining more as their relatives lose them.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by sangi39 » Tue 06 Feb 2018, 17:41

For the second proto-language which contained clicks, I was thinking something like this:

Image

It's a lot smaller than the first and besides the grouping shown above, which reflects an older stage of the language's phoneme inventory, a lot more "gappy".

The click series is divided into two groups "noisy" (lateral) and "abrupt" (alveolar), as are their pulmonic counterparts, but the voiced clicks correspond at this stage to voiced fricatives instead of voiced stops (in contrast to the first click language above in which they correspond to voiced stops, with voiced fricatives being a distinct series). There's also no pulmonic counterpart to the nasal lateral click, which should be /ɲ/, which has instead merged with /j/.

The tilde in the cell that should be the velar nasal is there (mostly to myself), of something I want to do with what was a velar nasal that no longer exists in the language (so likely vowel nasalisation, merger with an older /g/ into /ʁ/, or into /ʔ/), but might also be filled allophonically by extant /m/ and /n/ (like them becoming [ŋ] word-finally or before velar consonants).

A less historical arrangement of the consonant inventory would give this:

Image

More accurately showing how asymmetrical this inventory is.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by DesEsseintes » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 03:54

Latest idea for Limestone: add ejectives!

/n/ n
/p p’ t t’ k k’ ʔ/ p p’ t t’ k k’ ’
/s ɬ x/ s ł x
/r j w/ r y w

I’m not sure whether to get rid of /p’ j/.

/n/ n
/p t t’ k k’ ʔ/ p t t’ k k’ ’
/s ɬ x/ s ł x
/r w/ r w

Regardless, I find this very attractive.

The vowels are something along the lines of /a i o ɨ/ or /a i u ə/.
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