Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
wintiver
sinic
sinic
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue 09 Oct 2012, 02:37

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by wintiver » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 03:18

Current language idea - it's been bouncing around and changing form.

Code: Select all

Vowels:
i   ɯ u
e   ɤ o
ɛ   ʌ ɔ
  a
Vowels can be short or long and they carry tone.

Using <a> /a/ as an example:

Code: Select all

Tone on Short Vowels:
a˥ a˥˩ a˨˥ a˩
Tones for Long Vowels:
a˥ a˥˩ a˨˥ a˩ a˩˧˩ a˥˧˥ a˧˥˦
Notably there will be phonation affecting some of these tones as well, I suspect the low peaking tone /˩˧˩/ will also involve creaky voice as will most long low-tone vowels. I need to determine this a bit more. I may also utilize breathy voice but some more thought will need to go into this.

Despite the intense tonal system I would still like words to be longer than monosyllables. Ideally, most words would be either mono- or bisyllabic with an extremely small few being trisyllabic.

Code: Select all

Consonants:
m n̪       ɲ ŋ
p t̪ ts tɬ tʃ k q
    s  ɬ  ʃ  x χ h
ꞵ            ɣ
    r  l  j
Diachronically /w/ and /ɰ/ were lost though the latter is a common allophone of /ɣ/ between unrounded vowels, and /w/ occurs in some dialects between rounded vowels.

Making an orthography for this would be nightmarish though. I'd probably end up using the IPA characters for much of (if not all of) the vowel system.

Maximum syllables are (C)V(:)(C), except codas cannot have /ꞵ ɣ/ in them
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Shemtov » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 05:29

wintiver wrote:
Tue 05 Jun 2018, 02:30
Shemtov wrote:
Mon 04 Jun 2018, 06:40
/u:ⁿǂàma/, a distant relative of Eroki Gǂama, spoken on an island of the coast of the island where the latter is spoken.
/p pʰ ⁿp t tʰ ⁿt t͡ɬ t͡ɬʰ t͡ɕ t͡ɕʰ ⁿt͡ɕ k kʰ ⁿk ʔ/
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/s ɬ ɕ h/
/ɾ/
/w l j/

/ʘ ʘʰ ⁿʘ ǀ ǀʰ ⁿǀ ǀˀ ǃ ǃʰ ⁿǃ ǃˀ ǂ ǂʰ ⁿǂ ǂˀ/

/i u ɛ ɔ a/
/i: y: u: ɯ: e: o: ɛ: ɔ: a:/
/ɔʊ ɛɪ əu əi/

/˧ ˩/
I am especially a fan of the prenasalized unvoiced stops. Is the prenasalization voiceless? If/when the prenasals occur intervocalically are they voiced? I just think the stops are lovely as hell.

I'm not great at reproducing clicks though I try. I'm absolute trash at reproducing aspirated v. non-aspirated distinction on clicks consistently but I do like the phonaesthetic of it. Your vowel system is a gem too. I am a sucker for a back unrounded vowel.
Thanks. The Language has its own thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6684. I took Eroki Gǂama and reversed engineered the proto-lang, which had voiced stops (plain and prenasalized) voiced and voiced nasal clicks (Tone indicates original voicing, though intervocal /d/ with the first vowel being /i/ or /i:/ became /ɾ/.). The stops also had an ejective series, which all fused into /ʔ/ (In Eroki Gǂama they became voiced) The vowel inventory was pretty much the short vowels here, but with length and LOADS of diphthongs, which mostly resolved
into /y: ɯ: e: o:/
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
Frislander
runic
runic
Posts: 2670
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 17:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 15:17

/t t͡s k/
/ɬ~l s h/
/n j w/

The lateral is generally pronounced voiced only when intervocalic, before a glide or when geminated (though some speakers realise this last one as a single intervocalic voiceless fricative).

/i/
/e o/
/a/
/eo/

The vowels and the diphthong come in long and short.

Phonotactics are fairly simple. Syllable structure is CV(C), where all consonants other than /j/ can occur in the coda, though with some restrictions on intervocalic clusters. In particular the clusters /ln/ and /tn/ assimilate to /ll/ and /n/ respectively, while geminate obstruents (other than /ll/) are degeminated.

Stress is rigidly penultimate, however there are three accent patterns that can occur over the final two syllables; high on the penultimate/low on the ultimate, low on the penultimate/high on the ultimate and rising on the penultimate/falling on the ultimate.
Last edited by Frislander on Sun 10 Jun 2018, 16:14, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
LinguistCat
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat 06 May 2017, 06:48

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by LinguistCat » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 22:26

Frislander wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 15:17
/t t͡s k/
/ɬ~l s h/
/n j w/

The lateral is generally pronounced voiceless only when intervocalic, before a glide or when geminated (though some speakers realise this last one as a single intervocalic voiceless fricative).
This seems a little weird to me. Is it attested anywhere irl? In any case it is an interesting detail.
User avatar
Omzinesý
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2366
Joined: Fri 27 Aug 2010, 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Omzinesý » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 22:50

p' k' q' k͡p' q͡p'
p k q ʔ k͡p q͡p
ɸ x χ h x͡ɸ χ͡ɸ
m̥ ŋ̥ ɴ̥ m͡ŋ m͡ɴ
ʙ ʟ̥
ʘ

u, o, ɑ
User avatar
Frislander
runic
runic
Posts: 2670
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 17:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » Thu 07 Jun 2018, 00:09

LinguistCat wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 22:26
Frislander wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 15:17
/t t͡s k/
/ɬ~l s h/
/n j w/

The lateral is generally pronounced voiceless only when intervocalic, before a glide or when geminated (though some speakers realise this last one as a single intervocalic voiceless fricative).
This seems a little weird to me. Is it attested anywhere irl? In any case it is an interesting detail.
Which bit, the devoicing of the geminate or the lateral? Cause the geminate lateral is devoiced in Greenlandic as well (as part of a general process of devoicing geminate voiced fricatives).
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Shemtov » Thu 07 Jun 2018, 01:30

Omzinesý wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 22:50
p' k' q' k͡p' q͡p'
p k q ʔ k͡p q͡p
ɸ x χ h x͡ɸ χ͡ɸ
m̥ ŋ̥ ɴ̥ m͡ŋ m͡ɴ
ʙ ʟ̥
ʘ

u, o, ɑ
Kitchen Sink and Minimalist. I like the idea.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
wintiver
sinic
sinic
Posts: 233
Joined: Tue 09 Oct 2012, 02:37

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by wintiver » Thu 07 Jun 2018, 18:28

Omzinesý wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 22:50
p' k' q' k͡p' q͡p'
p k q ʔ k͡p q͡p
ɸ x χ h x͡ɸ χ͡ɸ
m̥ ŋ̥ ɴ̥ m͡ŋ m͡ɴ
ʙ ʟ̥
ʘ

u, o, ɑ
I was toying around with a hyper-strange and smaller inventory too. I like this a lot actually.

The sheer number of labials is staggering. I'd like to think dialects diverging and daughters of this language generating weird back-only vowel systems that have either /u o ɒ/ and then some of the other siblangs would have /ɯ u ɤ o ɑ ɒ/.

(I also love/hate the idea of a phonemic unvoiced uvular nasal. I keep gagging when I try to pronounce it (obviously I'm doing it wrong haha)

I was tinkering and I thought it would be fun to make an exceptionally harsh sounding language:

t̪ ʈ͡ʂ t͡ɕ k ʡ ʔ
t̪ʰʰ ʈ͡ʂʰʰ t͡ɕʰʰ kʰʰ
ɗ̪ ᶑ ʄ ɠ
h̪͆ ʂ ɕ x ʜ h
r̪ ɽ j ɰ ʕ

i̝ ɯ̝
e̞ ɤ̞
æ ɑ

Notes:
  • The aspirated voiceless stops are powerfully aspirated with a much, much greated VOT then we have in English.
  • There is an entire phonemic series of epiglottal/pharyngeals distinct glottals.
  • r̪ can function as a syllabic consonant
  • The high vowels are produced with audible friction, but just short of being a fricative.
User avatar
Frislander
runic
runic
Posts: 2670
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 17:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » Fri 08 Jun 2018, 16:23

/t k̟ k̠ ʔ/ <t c q ‘>
/ɓ ɗ/ <b d>
/t͡s’ k̟’ k̠’/ <t' c' q'>
/f s ħ/ <f s h>
/m n ɣ̟ ɣ̠/ <m n y g>

The advanced dorsals as palatalised to varying extents depending on adjacent vowels, with the greatest degree of palatalisation being seen between two front vowels. Similarly, the retracted dorsals are most uvularised between two back vowels.

/i u/ <i u>
/iə uə/ <ie ue>
/ɛ œ ɔ/ <e oe o>
/a/ <a>

Syllable structure is CV(C), where the coda C is restricted to /ʔ s ħ m n ɣ̟ ɣ̠/. After front vowels /i ɛ œ/ the advanced velar approximant is generally realised as lengthening of the vowel, while after other vowels it is the retracted velar that is so realised. The diphthongs /iə uə/ are never so lengthened.

Roots are either vowel- or consonant-final, with only a restricted set of consonants /t k̟ k̠ s ħ m n/, and where before consonants/word-finally the /t/ is debuccalised and the dorsal stops are lenited to approximants.
Random8k
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed 02 Aug 2017, 05:05
Location: Probably at the computer

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Random8k » Fri 08 Jun 2018, 20:38

This is from Qianshogo, a protolang that I want to use to derive a conlang from.

/m n ŋ/
/b t d k g q/
/tʃ /
/s z ʃ ʒ x h/
/ɹ/

/i ɯ/
/e o/
/ɛ/
/a/

There's also a few other diphthongs: /ai ou/

Syllable structure is (C1)V1(C2)(V2)(F). Consonants always have to come with a vowel, and F indicates a group I call "Finals" (n, ng, zh, sh, and ch).
User avatar
LinguistCat
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat 06 May 2017, 06:48

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by LinguistCat » Fri 08 Jun 2018, 22:29

Frislander wrote:
Thu 07 Jun 2018, 00:09
LinguistCat wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 22:26
Frislander wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 15:17
/t t͡s k/
/ɬ~l s h/
/n j w/

The lateral is generally pronounced voiceless only when intervocalic, before a glide or when geminated (though some speakers realise this last one as a single intervocalic voiceless fricative).
This seems a little weird to me. Is it attested anywhere irl? In any case it is an interesting detail.
Which bit, the devoicing of the geminate or the lateral? Cause the geminate lateral is devoiced in Greenlandic as well (as part of a general process of devoicing geminate voiced fricatives).
I meant the lateral between vowels. I didn't know that about Greenlandic though in Japanese, geminates are almost always devoiced unless they're recent borrowings.
User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6008
Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 08 Jun 2018, 23:13

I’m more used to an /f/ phoneme (for instance) being voiced [v] only between vowels, and suchlike things. Intervocalic devoicing is a new idea to me.
Birdlang
greek
greek
Posts: 558
Joined: Thu 25 Dec 2014, 20:17
Location: Virginia

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Birdlang » Fri 08 Jun 2018, 23:17

My conlang from the challenge

/m n̪ n ŋ/ <m nh n g> or m ñ n nh or m ṋ n g
/p t̪ t k ʔ/ <p th t k q> p th t c/qu h p ṱ t k ɂ
/f s̪ s x h/ <f sh s j h> f x s/c g/j gh/jh f z s x h
/l̪ l w j/ <lh l w y> ll l w y ḽ l w j
/ɾ̪ ɾ/ <rh r> rr r r̭ r

/iː yː ʉː ɯː uː/ <ii üü ųų ïï uu> ī ȳ ǖ ǡ ū ii ûû üü ūū uu
/ɪ ʏ ʊ̈ ɯ̽ ʊ/ <i ü ų ï u> i y ü ȧ u i û ü ū u
/eː øː ɵː ɤː oː/ <ee öö ǫǫ ëë oo> ē ȱ ȫ ȭ ō ee ôô öö ōō oo
/ɛ œ ɞ ʌ ɔ/ <e ö ǫ ë o> e ȯ ö õ o e ô ö ō o
/æː ɑː/ <ää aa> ǣ ā ââ aa
/æ ə/ <ä a> æ a â a
My own orthography is a mix of Spanish style consonants with my own signature style vowels plus doubling for length. The h represents a different pronunciation based on an earlier aspirated consonant. The other one is based off of my own spelling systems.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ
User avatar
Frislander
runic
runic
Posts: 2670
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 17:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 15:28

eldin raigmore wrote:
Fri 08 Jun 2018, 23:13
I’m more used to an /f/ phoneme (for instance) being voiced [v] only between vowels, and suchlike things. Intervocalic devoicing is a new idea to me.
Oh shit just read over and I mistyped that, it should say "voiced when intervocalic", sorry.
User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6008
Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 22:22

So, @Frislander, how would you correct this post?
Frislander wrote:
Wed 06 Jun 2018, 15:17
....
The lateral is generally pronounced voiceless only when intervocalic, before a glide or when geminated (though some speakers realise this last one as a single intervocalic voiceless fricative).
....
The vowels and the diphthong come in long and short.

Phonotactics are fairly simple. Syllable structure is CV(C), where all consonants other than /j/ can occur in the coda, though with some restrictions on intervocalic clusters. In particular the clusters /ln/ and /tn/ assimilate to /ll/ and /n/ respectively, while geminate obstruents (other than /ll/) are degeminated.

Stress is rigidly penultimate, however there are three accent patterns that can occur over the final two syllables; high on the penultimate/low on the ultimate, low on the penultimate/high on the ultimate and rising on the penultimate/falling on the ultimate.
BTW what’s a long diphthong?
shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 9815
Joined: Fri 12 Jul 2013, 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 22:37

eldin raigmore wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 22:22
BTW what’s a long diphthong?
Exactly what it sounds like.
User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6008
Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Sun 10 Jun 2018, 04:55

shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 22:37
eldin raigmore wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 22:22
BTW what’s a long diphthong?
Exactly what it sounds like.
I don’t remember ever seeing one in a natlang.

Some have long vowels, and some have diphthongs, but I’ve never seen a natlang vowel inventory that had both phonemic short vowels and phonemic long vowels, and also had both phonemic monophthongs and phonemic diphthongs; much less long diphthong phonemes. (Nor even long diphthongs that aren’t phonemes.)

Is, for instance, [a:i] or [ai:] or [a:i:] likelier? Does any natlang have two of them?
How about two or all three of [a:u] or [au:] or [a:u:]?
Etc.

If these things occur only in conlangs, that’s fine; but I still can’t imagine what they sound like.
Think you could post a link to a recording?
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Shemtov » Sun 10 Jun 2018, 05:21

eldin raigmore wrote:
Sun 10 Jun 2018, 04:55
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 22:37
eldin raigmore wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 22:22
BTW what’s a long diphthong?
Exactly what it sounds like.
I don’t remember ever seeing one in a natlang.

Some have long vowels, and some have diphthongs, but I’ve never seen a natlang vowel inventory that had both phonemic short vowels and phonemic long vowels, and also had both phonemic monophthongs and phonemic diphthongs; much less long diphthong phonemes. (Nor even long diphthongs that aren’t phonemes.)

Is, for instance, [a:i] or [ai:] or [a:i:] likelier? Does any natlang have two of them?
How about two or all three of [a:u] or [au:] or [a:u:]?
Etc.

If these things occur only in conlangs, that’s fine; but I still can’t imagine what they sound like.
Think you could post a link to a recording?
IIRC Thai distinguishes /əi/ from /ə:i/
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
Frislander
runic
runic
Posts: 2670
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 17:47
Location: The North

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by Frislander » Sun 10 Jun 2018, 16:20

My main inspiration for this length distinction was Old English, which did have a length distinction on its diphthongs, which were also height-harmonic like /eo/. I think in this case since it's height-harmonic and both elements are equally syllabic I would suppose that the short one has both elements being slightly shorter than a single vowel and the long having each element being a bit longer, up to one-and-a-half times as much.
User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6008
Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Random phonology/phonemic inventory thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Sun 10 Jun 2018, 20:50

@Frislander: Thanks! I think I understand now.
@Shemtov: Thanks! I looked it up and after a few tries also found a few other examples.
The [V:V:] type seems very rare IME so far.
Post Reply