(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 17 May 2018, 17:47

Let's say we have a split-S system based on control over something. In a) the person does not do the action on purpose, he just slipt and fell accidentally. In b) the person slides on purpose, maybe for even fun.

a)
Sa-0 jatu.
1SG-ACC slip
`I slipped and fell.'

b)
Sa-ya jatu
1SG-ERG slip
`I slided.'

If we now passivize a sentence like the one in c), we have two possibilities. Either we can use the agent-like case, indicating that the person let them catch him/her on purpose.

c) Ka-ya tangkap sa-0.
2SG-ERG catch 1SG-ACC
`You caught me.'

d) Sa-ya di-tangkap
1SG-ERG PASS-catch
`I was caught (on purpose).'

e) Sa-0 di-tangkap
1SG-ACC PASS-catch
`I got caught (not on purpose)'

(The language is made up based on Papuan Indonesian.)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » Thu 17 May 2018, 18:00

Creyeditor wrote:
Thu 17 May 2018, 17:47
Let's say we have a split-S system based on control over something. In a) the person does not do the action on purpose, he just slipt and fell accidentally. In b) the person slides on purpose, maybe for even fun.

a)
Sa-0 jatu.
1SG-ACC slip
`I slipped and fell.'

b)
Sa-ya jatu
1SG-ERG slip
`I slided.'

Isn't this more Fluid-S, since there's no change to jatu marking volition?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 17 May 2018, 20:01

Maybe, I just took Wikipedia's word for split-intransitive. What kind of split where you thinking about? Lexical classes of verbs?

So, rewriting the examples, that could mean that different verbs take different subject marking if passivized.

a)
Sa-0 jatu.
1SG-ACC slip
`I slipped and fell.'

b)
Sa-ya grin
1SG-ERG slip
`I slided.'

c) Ka-ya tangkap sa-0.
2SG-ERG catch1 1SG-ACC
`You caught me.'

d) Sa-ya di-tangkap
1SG-ERG PASS-catch1
`I was caught (on purpose).'

e) Sa-0 di-ajak
1SG-ACC PASS-catch2
`I got caught (not on purpose)'

f) Ka-ya ajak sa-0
2SG-ERG catch2 1SG-ACC
`You caught me.'
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Clio » Thu 17 May 2018, 23:07

Suppose a language has a glottal phoneme like /? h/, which I'll write as <h>. What are some possible ways that this phoneme could affect the position of a word's accent? I've heard of a few relevant sound changes, but I'm interested in working through some other possibilities. In particular, I want to make sure that the sound laws I come up with both affect a lot of words (e.g., by not just applying to one kind of cluster with <h>) and are consistent.

I believe I've read that in Chinese, syllables ending in a glottal stop developed rising tone.
I'm aware of Winter's law, which lengthened and gave acute accent to vowels preceding a cluster of the form laryngeal + consonant.

Would it be reasonable to have <h> "kick" the accent forward so that every vowel after (a consonant cluster with) <h> gains the accent? Could I have different rules for hC and Ch clusters, and if so what kind of pairs of rules would be sensible?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Fri 18 May 2018, 10:30

Shemtov wrote:
Thu 17 May 2018, 16:34
How can voice work in a split-S system?
Voices make many other things too than make the roles of information structure and semantic roles mach.

Passive is basically just demoting the agent. You can of course demote it though it were not very topical in the beginning.
A syntactically ERG-ACC construction doesn't have to be - and usually is not - object promoting when it comes to information structure. So you demote the topic features from the ergative subject.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Birdlang » Sun 20 May 2018, 22:43

What are some good ways to write the following phonemes?
/ɱ ɴ ʡ ʢ ʕ ħ ɭ ɽ ɖ ʈ ʂ ʐ ʈʂ ɖʐ ʔ/
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by alynnidalar » Mon 21 May 2018, 03:21

It'd depend on how the rest of a phonology is spelled, IMO. For example, if you didn't have /l/ then <l> would be a good way to write /ɭ/, but it wouldn't work if you had both.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Birdlang » Mon 21 May 2018, 11:32

It would contrast the retroflex with dental and alveolar ones. The labiodental nasal contrasts with m.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nachtuil » Tue 22 May 2018, 03:00

(oops double post)
Last edited by Nachtuil on Tue 22 May 2018, 03:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nachtuil » Tue 22 May 2018, 03:05

Birdlang: You could consider just not indicating them with orthography. It really does depend on the rest of your phonology and the phonotactics of the language. Like if you have no /x/ or /h/ using <h> for /ħ/. For the retroflexes, I have seen combinations of regular stops and <r>s done. Like /ʈ/ could be <tr>. Using combinations with <l> might also be logical. You could also consider doubling letters for the retroflexes. /ɖ ʈ ʂ ʐ ʈʂ ɖʐ/ becoming <dd tt ss zz tts ddz> but it does depend on your phonotactics too as you may have confusion at syllable boundaries if say, your language allowed d in both coda and onset. /tod-da/ and /toɖ-a/ might result in the same letters. Diacritics is always an option too. If you give an example of a full phonology it will be easier for people to help you.


Question: I should probably assume there are, but I am dying to know, are there natural languages which have restrictions on consonant gemination* based on point of articulation? Like are there examples of dentals and velars being able to be doubled or lengthened but not labials or uvulars for instance?

*I realise I've used the word gemination in a somewhat loose sense here.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark » Wed 23 May 2018, 11:55

Nachtuil wrote:
Tue 22 May 2018, 03:05
Question: I should probably assume there are, but I am dying to know, are there natural languages which have restrictions on consonant gemination* based on point of articulation? Like are there examples of dentals and velars being able to be doubled or lengthened but not labials or uvulars for instance?

*I realise I've used the word gemination in a somewhat loose sense here.
According to Wikipedia, natural languages often have restrictions on which consonants can be geminated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemination

Question:
My conlang, Shonkasika has two ways of forming the habitual aspect, and I want to know if the system makes sense together:

Newer, productive way:
Add the suffix -li to form the non-future tenses and -lo to form the future tenses for all moods:
ruvat I love
ruvalit I usually love
ruvalot I will always love (future indicative)
ruvalotus I would always love; I would usually love (conditonal/future-in-the-past)
ruvalokrot May I always love (future optative)

Older, non-productive way:
Reduplication of the initial consonant and vowel, with the suffix -lo to form the future indicative and the conditional:
tut I give
tutut I usually give
tutulot I will always give (future indicative)
tutulotus I would always give; I would usually give (conditonal/future-in-the-past)
tutukrot May I always give (future optative)

The rational for maintaining -lo in the future optative in the newer productive way is to mark the stem as "habitual"; -kro is the future optative suffix. For the older, non-productive way, the reduplicated stem already marks the stem as "habitual", and the -kro is a "future", so -lo is redundant.

Still, I am well aware that languages have many redundancies. Does this system make sense? Should future habitual verbs in the old system still have -lo in moods other than the indicative and conditional?
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 23 May 2018, 18:23

I think this system looks sensible the way it is.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Clio » Wed 23 May 2018, 18:38

felipesnark wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018, 11:55
My conlang, Shonkasika has two ways of forming the habitual aspect, and I want to know if the system makes sense together:

Newer, productive way:
Add the suffix -li to form the non-future tenses and -lo to form the future tenses for all moods:

Older, non-productive way:
Reduplication of the initial consonant and vowel, with the suffix -lo to form the future indicative and the conditional:
The rational for maintaining -lo in the future optative in the newer productive way is to mark the stem as "habitual"; -kro is the future optative suffix. For the older, non-productive way, the reduplicated stem already marks the stem as "habitual", and the -kro is a "future", so -lo is redundant.
This makes fine sense to me--reminds me of the multiple ways of forming the different aspects/tenses in Indo-European languages. It just looks like the newer, productive marking is just more regular. I take it that -kro is both future and optative; out of curiosity, what would the present habitual optative of tutut look like (if that form is possible)?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by felipesnark » Wed 23 May 2018, 22:17

Clio wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018, 18:38
This makes fine sense to me--reminds me of the multiple ways of forming the different aspects/tenses in Indo-European languages. It just looks like the newer, productive marking is just more regular. I take it that -kro is both future and optative; out of curiosity, what would the present habitual optative of tutut look like (if that form is possible)?
Yes, -kro is future and optative. The non-future optative suffix is -kri, so the present habitual optative form would be tutukrit.

To make a long story short, an older version of Shonkasika's verb system had a sort hypothetical mood formed by ablaut of the final vowel of the stem. That hypothetical form became the basis for the future tenses. Some verbs still preserve this old system, thus having both a future and non-future stem. Most verbs, however, have the same stem for future and non-future tenses. Here is the current explanation from my documentation:
Spoiler:
The hypothetic stem of banu, to be, bo- became the modern indicative future suffix and most other hypothetic verb forms were lost. The hypothetic stem of the verbs that would become the basis for the subjunctive and optative moods, *cha- (from *chenu) and *kro- (from *krinu), became the suffixes for the future subjunctive and optative. Since the prospective stem is based on the future stem (former hypothetic stem), any verb with a strong future stem will have an ‘strong’ prospective stem. Likewise, they will have ‘strong’ conditionals since the conditional is the future stem with the past personal endings. Additionally, verbs with an strong future stem use this stem for both the future subjunctive and the future optative. Future and conditional perfects as well as future and conditional habituals, having developed later, are not affected by strong future stems. Thus, a strong future stem affects the simple future in all moods, the prospective aspect in all moods, as well as the simple conditional.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by kingdemon » Thu 24 May 2018, 22:36

I'm really bad at figuring out which topic is the best place to ask questions, so I'm going to try it here if that's fine. If not, feel free to point me to the correct forum! Thanks!

I was considering doing a YouTube series where I explain my completed conlang, its world, the speakers, and all things pertaining to it, but only speak in my conlang with subtitles. I'm not sure if it even would be interesting, but I have a bunch of time on my hands right now. I was kicking the idea around and thought I'd run it by a conlanging community before I actually undertook the project given how much time would be needed to translate and practice speaking the sentences and then record and put together the videos. Anyways, let me know or show me where I SHOULD be posting this question!

Thanks again and have a wonderful day!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Thu 24 May 2018, 22:44

kingdemon wrote:
Thu 24 May 2018, 22:36
I'm really bad at figuring out which topic is the best place to ask questions, so I'm going to try it here if that's fine. If not, feel free to point me to the correct forum! Thanks!

I was considering doing a YouTube series where I explain my completed conlang, its world, the speakers, and all things pertaining to it, but only speak in my conlang with subtitles. I'm not sure if it even would be interesting, but I have a bunch of time on my hands right now. I was kicking the idea around and thought I'd run it by a conlanging community before I actually undertook the project given how much time would be needed to translate and practice speaking the sentences and then record and put together the videos. Anyways, let me know or show me where I SHOULD be posting this question!

Thanks again and have a wonderful day!
I think this is the right place to ask this kind of question. However, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to ask. Are you asking if you should do this or not? If you think it would be fun, then I'd say go for it!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by kingdemon » Thu 24 May 2018, 23:14

shimobaatar wrote:
Thu 24 May 2018, 22:44
I think this is the right place to ask this kind of question. However, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to ask. Are you asking if you should do this or not? If you think it would be fun, then I'd say go for it!
Yeah I guess I was asking if I should do it. Or maybe I'm asking if anyone thinks it is a good idea. Or if anyone would find it interesting. [:)]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » Fri 25 May 2018, 01:57

kingdemon wrote:
Thu 24 May 2018, 23:14
shimobaatar wrote:
Thu 24 May 2018, 22:44
I think this is the right place to ask this kind of question. However, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to ask. Are you asking if you should do this or not? If you think it would be fun, then I'd say go for it!
Yeah I guess I was asking if I should do it. Or maybe I'm asking if anyone thinks it is a good idea. Or if anyone would find it interesting. [:)]
Sure! Go ahead and absolutely do it! Perhaps a short mini-series for world, culture and language?

When once you've gotten a short series of videos done, please do join the Language Creation Society and create a presentation for the next LCC! (Maybe make the slides in English, but talk in your invented language?) This kind of half-scholarly presentation half-performance art I think would go down spectacularly well! Especially if you create a character, in-world costume and perhaps bring some simple in-world props from your world!!

Seriously, friend, this is a no-brainer!

And, oh yeah: we'd be interested in this project here as well!
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by kingdemon » Fri 25 May 2018, 19:28

elemtilas wrote:
Fri 25 May 2018, 01:57

Sure! Go ahead and absolutely do it! Perhaps a short mini-series for world, culture and language?

When once you've gotten a short series of videos done, please do join the Language Creation Society and create a presentation for the next LCC! (Maybe make the slides in English, but talk in your invented language?) This kind of half-scholarly presentation half-performance art I think would go down spectacularly well! Especially if you create a character, in-world costume and perhaps bring some simple in-world props from your world!!

Seriously, friend, this is a no-brainer!

And, oh yeah: we'd be interested in this project here as well!
Thank you very much! I'll definitely see what I can come up with. I mostly just have the idea right now, but my conlang is far enough along that I can pretty much talk about anything.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » Sat 26 May 2018, 03:26

kingdemon wrote:
Fri 25 May 2018, 19:28
Thank you very much! I'll definitely see what I can come up with. I mostly just have the idea right now, but my conlang is far enough along that I can pretty much talk about anything.
Well, the idea is a solid one. I hope you'll carry through with it! I also hope you'll consider presenting at a future LCC. Maybe not 2018 if you don't have anything ready, but perhaps 2019!
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