(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 15:43

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Thu 16 Aug 2018, 15:27
Do I need to include purely allophonic sounds in a language's IPA chart? For example, A'atun's chart currently includes the uvulars (/ɴ/, etc.) but lists them as allophones.
That's up to you. If you only want the chart to include phonemes, then make a chart like that labeled something like "Phonemic Inventory of A'atun". If you want your chart to include allophones as well, that's also fine, but I'd recommend marking the allophones in some way.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 17:39

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Thu 16 Aug 2018, 15:27
Wikipedia describes it as "sounding a little like a simultaneous [r] and [ʐ] (or [r̥] and [ʂ] when devoiced)," which means it could be a retroflex (native speaker, please help).

Do I need to include purely allophonic sounds in a language's IPA chart? For example, A'atun's chart currently includes the uvulars (/ɴ/, etc.) but lists them as allophones.
If you give a phoneme inventory, you should not include allophones. If you give a consonant inventory, you should include allophones. Some people like to give allophones (in brackets).
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 17:46

Okay. Do affricates containing allophones need to be on the chart? For example, [b̪͡v] if [b̪] is purely allophonic.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 19:14

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Thu 16 Aug 2018, 17:46
Okay. Do affricates containing allophones need to be on the chart? For example, [b̪͡v] if [b̪] is purely allophonic.
You've put [b̪͡v] in square brackets, implying you're talking about phones (which include allophones), not phonemes, so the question is moot. Yes, include allophones when making phonetic transcriptions.

If you meant to ask about a phonemic chart, the answer depends on how narrow you want your notation to be. Phonemes are abstract concepts, and the representation of a phoneme is arbitrary. /b̪͡v/ gives a more accurate idea of how to pronounce the sound, but since the point of phonemic transcription is to show meaningful contrasts, not exact pronunciation, /b͡v/ will usually suffice.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 20:54

With A'atun's /r/ being prone to assimilation, which of /ʙ̥ ʙ ʙ̪̊ ʙ̪ r̪̊ r̪ ɼ̊ ɼ ʝ˔/ are rightfully allophones of /r/? Their, respective, spellings are <pr br fr vr tr dr sr zr jr>, noting that (a.) <vr jr> become <r> if the <r> had been adjacent to a diphthongal <i u>, respectively, and (b.) /ɼ̊ ɼ/ are hypothetical at this point.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » Thu 16 Aug 2018, 21:32

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Thu 16 Aug 2018, 20:54
With A'atun's /r/ being prone to assimilation, which of /ʙ̥ ʙ ʙ̪̊ ʙ̪ r̪̊ r̪ ɼ̊ ɼ ʝ˔/ are rightfully allophones of /r/? Their, respective, spellings are <pr br fr vr tr dr sr zr jr>, noting that (a.) <vr jr> become <r> if the <r> had been adjacent to a diphthongal <i u>, respectively, and (b.) /ɼ̊ ɼ/ are hypothetical at this point.
The orthography is irrelevant for analyzing the phonology. If [ʙ̥ ʙ ʙ̪̊ ʙ̪ r̪̊ r̪ ʝ˔] do not form minimal pairs with each other, it's likely they're allophones of a single phoneme, which you could represent as /r/. If [ɼ̊ ɼ] later appear and also do not contrast with the other phones, they are probably also allophones of /r/.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 01:54

As it stands, /ʝ˔/ is the only phone listed without any contrasts because the others are or may be fortis-lenis pairs. However, /r̃ ʀ ʀ̃/ aren't contracted with either.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 02:29

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Fri 17 Aug 2018, 01:54
As it stands, /ʝ˔/ is the only phone listed without any contrasts because the others are or may be fortis-lenis pairs.
So there are no words containing [ʝ˔] that would change meaning if you replaced it with any of [ʙ̥ ʙ ʙ̪̊ ʙ̪ r̪̊ r̪]? There's a flaw in that logic. If I have a word [ʝ˔a] and change it to [ʙ̥a], it doesn't change meaning. If I instead change [ʝ˔a] to [ʙa], it also doesn't change meaning. But you just said that [ʙ̥] and [ʙ] contrast. A = B and A = C but B ≠ C. That doesn't work.

yangfiretiger121 wrote:However, /r̃ ʀ ʀ̃/ aren't contracted with either.
Either of what?

To help keep things clear, we're talking about sounds that may or may not be phonemes. When in doubt about a sound, it's best to put it in [square brackets] to make it clear we're still dealing with phones, actual sounds, rather than the abstract phonemes we will derive from them.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 04:10

I'm sorry for confusing you. Thus, here's the note on the cell labeled "trill" from the spreadsheet, appended with the portion of the note on the cell labeled "uvular" applicable to trills: "[ʙ̥], [ʙ], [ʙ̪̊], [ʙ̪], and [ʝ˔] are formed by the assimilation of [r] into an adjacent [p], [ b ], [f], [v], or [ʝ], respectively. Additionally, [r̪̊], [r̪], and [r̃] are allophones of [r] after [t] and [d] as well as [m] or [n], respectively. While [ʀ] and [ʀ̃] are allophones of [r] and [r̃]—respectively when the latter two share a syllable with a back vowel most of the time, [ʀ] and [ʀ̃] may form by assimilation with an adjacent uvular consonant in the same syllable as well." If [ɼ̊] and [ɼ] exist, they'd, presumably, fit into the first category by assimilating into [ɕ] and [ʑ], respectively. Is the first category ([ʙ̥], etc.) considered allophonic? My gut says "no," but I'd like to check anyway.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 17:24

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Fri 17 Aug 2018, 04:10
Is the first category ([ʙ̥], etc.) considered allophonic?
Yes. Given that list of phones, you can predict which will appear based entirely on the environment, which means they don't contrast.

I think you could rephrase your description this way:
[ʙ̥], [ʙ], [ʙ̪̊], [ʙ̪], and [ʝ˔] are formed by the assimilation of /r/ with an adjacent [p], [ b ], [f], [v], or [ʝ], respectively. Additionally, [r̪̊], [r̪], and [r̃] are allophones of /r/ after [t] and [d] as well as [m] or [n], respectively. [ʀ] is an allophone of /r/ when it shares a syllable with a back vowel or is adjacent to a uvular consonant in the same syllable. When it additionally follows [m] or [n], it becomes [ʀ̃].

Does /r/ ever surface as [r]?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by holbuzvala » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 21:07

Hi team, long time no speak. I'm playing with diachronics, and I've got changes in the following diphthongs when unstressed (forgive the lack of IPA, but I'm sure you get the gist):

au -> o
ai -> e

náakai -> náge
áktaunau -> áktono

Do you think it's reasonable/natural for this de-diphthongisation to occur in monosyllabic words where stress doesn't really play a part? For instance:

haul -> hol?
lai -> le?

Any pointers would be excellent.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by ixals » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 21:14

What are some ways to create participles in a conlang?

holbuzvala wrote:
Fri 17 Aug 2018, 21:07
Do you think it's reasonable/natural for this de-diphthongisation to occur in monosyllabic words where stress doesn't really play a part?
If these words are unstressed, I don't see why not. If they are stressed, I'm not sure.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 21:44

Currently, /r/ only appears adjacent to <e i u> unless some other condition is met. However, I'm likely to scrap the uvular consonants and nasal trill. The bilabial trills may be on the chopping block as well. Alternatively, the bilabial trills could be allophones of [p] and [ b ] adjacent to [r].
Last edited by yangfiretiger121 on Sun 19 Aug 2018, 22:49, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by brblues » Sat 18 Aug 2018, 10:22

ixals wrote:
Fri 17 Aug 2018, 21:14
What are some ways to create participles in a conlang?

I think any morphological changes on verbs would work - or are you looking for an alternative way?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Clio » Sat 18 Aug 2018, 21:00

ixals wrote:
Fri 17 Aug 2018, 21:14
What are some ways to create participles in a conlang?
Adjective-forming suffixes added to verb stems, of course, as in Indo-European. I think you could also derive participles from reduced forms of verbs in a serial verb construction.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by this_is_an_account » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 02:17

I'm thinking of making a romance language spoken in northern Germany and the Netherlands. Does anyone have any good resources on roman history and Vulgar Latin?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Porphyrogenitos » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 06:14

The Wikipedia articles "Romance Languages" and "Vulgar Latin" are actually really good and a great starting point.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 17:00

this_is_an_account wrote:
Sun 19 Aug 2018, 02:17
I'm thinking of making a romance language spoken in northern Germany and the Netherlands. Does anyone have any good resources on roman history and Vulgar Latin?
I'd recommend getting The Grammar of Romance: A Comparative Introduction to Vulgar Latin & the Romance Languages by Joshua Rudder. It is a fairly solid book on the Romance Languages and the differences in between them, it also has grammatical charts on Vulgar Latin that may be useful for the romlanger.

It doesn't go too far into historical diachronics though. If you want something more detailed, Rosen and Alkire's The Romance Languages may suffice. However, that book is much longer and doesn't have the charts.

If you want to stick with online material, then I'd recommend Nativlang's website. He also has many good youtube videos (and a whole series on vulgar latin.) Last but not least, Wiktionary's article on Vulgar Latin is a very good resource. You could probably copy the sound shifts there straight out.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by this_is_an_account » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 20:22

I was reading the wikipedia page on Romance languages, and it talks about how consonants got palatalized before /j/ which came "from i, e in hiatus." By "i, e" do they mean /ɪ ɛ/ or /ɪ iː ɛ eː/?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 22:20

This may be not the problem, @tiaa, but:

A hiatus is when a syllable-final vowel is immediately followed by a syllable-initial vowel in the same word.
It’s a vowel-cluster that’s not a polyphthong, because it isn’t tautosyllabic.
There’s a syllable-boundary between one vowel and the next.
If there weren’t, the two vowels would belong to one and the same syllable, and would constitute a diphthong (or part of a longer polyphthong).

If you already knew what a hiatus is, that explanation doesn’t solve the problem.
Even if you didn’t know, it’s possible that explanation just helps you understand the problem better, but doesn’t actually solve it.

Partly because, among other possible solutions, maybe Wikipedia just fucked up.
Or there may be something else they assume the readers all know, that by happenstance, you don’t know.
Etc.
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