(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
spanick
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu 11 May 2017, 00:47
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by spanick » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 18:49

Quick question regarding the diachronics of South a Slavic. When would Serbo-Croatian have separated from OCS? I’m asking because the Gotski were conquered by South Slavs by the 9th Century and they continued to be the ruling class until the 15th Century.

The situation is meant to be similar to Norman England. Likewise, I’d like to borrow words for things concerning law (judge, jury, trial, etc.) but I’m not certain if it would be more appropriate to borrow from OCS or from Serbo-Croatian. The final form in Gotski changes pretty drastically. For example judge (person)
OCS: sǫdii > Gotski: sǫdzi
SC: sudija > Gotski: sodza/sudza/sudia (different forms largely depending on when this would be borrowed)
shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 8850
Joined: Fri 12 Jul 2013, 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 22:55

Not to say it wouldn't be helpful to know the approximate dates you're asking for, but you could probably borrow from both, like how English has borrowed from both Latin and French.
User avatar
spanick
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu 11 May 2017, 00:47
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by spanick » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 23:56

shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 02 Dec 2017, 22:55
Not to say it wouldn't be helpful to know the approximate dates you're asking for, but you could probably borrow from both, like how English has borrowed from both Latin and French.
Sorry, I’m thinking sometime around the 10th-11th Century.

I do borrow from both but I’m having trouble with this one because I’m not sure which would’ve been closer to the spoken language or st least the language of governance at the time.
User avatar
spanick
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu 11 May 2017, 00:47
Location: California

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by spanick » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 01:50

I’ve done a little more research and I think I figured it out. Nasals were lost in the 12th century and yers were lost in the 10th to 11th.
User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sun 20 Oct 2013, 01:57
Location: Tom-ʾEzru lit Yat-Vṛḵažu

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 07:13

I've read something on wiki that tones are relative to surrounding tones and not absolute. Does this mean if my language has only low tone and high tone and no "mid/neutral" tone, that there is no point in marking the low tone, both in romanization and in IPA transcription?
Image Ӯсцӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image ʾEšd Yatvṛḵažaẇ (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
Porphyrogenitos
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 153
Joined: Sat 21 Jul 2012, 07:01
Location: Buffalo, NY

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Porphyrogenitos » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 07:46

Well, I think wrt the issue of romanization, regardless of the nature of tone as a phenomenon it would be redundant to mark both tones in a two-tone system - e.g. <kèlág ósóma mìpì ìrtámbá> tells you exactly nothing more than either <kelág ósóma mipi irtámbá> or <kèlag osoma mìpì ìrtamba> (regardless of which tone you want to leave unmarked).

But yes, tones are relative and not absolute - that's why, of course, a woman with a high-pitched voice and a man with a low-pitched voice don't have to speak with the same pitch in a tonal language, and why you don't have to be a classically-trained singer to make yourself intelligible in a tonal language.

And furthermore, languages with tones all have various systems of tone sandhi and various kinds of prosodic and phrasal conditioning of tone, the latter closely tied in with pitch-related phenomena that occur in non-tonal languages. So in, for example, a two-tone system of high and low, there will be numerous allophones (or allotones) of high tone depending on what tones it's adjacent to and where it is in the sentence or prosodic unit.

As for whether you should mark it in the IPA transcription, that's also a separate question. Many languages are analyzed as having two phonemic tones, high and low. But there are also some languages where some syllables are simply analyzed as having "no tone", a default state without phonemic tone, with other syllables taking a distinctive high tone - or perhaps, a language could be unmarked/no tone vs. low tone, or unmarked/no tone vs. high vs. low. It depends on what makes sense in the structure of your language's phonology.
Davush
sinic
sinic
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat 10 Jan 2015, 14:10

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Davush » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:19

I was wondering about toponyms/endonyms and whether they act differently than other things with sound change? I'm trying to come up with a nice etymology for Qutrussan, but sound changes seem to prevent me reaching 'Qutrus' from possible roots.

Also, how realistic is it for part of a word to be lost but not due to regular sound change, e.g. I want the Qutrussan word for 'night' to be derived from 'moon-time', but the final syllable of 'time' is lost:

*nu:ʕ-wa'sat > nu:a - vatsa:t (as separate words), but the final compound becomes 'núvas'

This will probably happen in quite a few compounds as Qutrussan has a preference for nouns of 2 syllables, but I'm not sure if it's at all realistic/likely/possible.
User avatar
gestaltist
roman
roman
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed 11 Feb 2015, 11:23

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 12:14

Davush wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 11:19
Also, how realistic is it for part of a word to be lost but not due to regular sound change, e.g. I want the Qutrussan word for 'night' to be derived from 'moon-time', but the final syllable of 'time' is lost:

*nu:ʕ-wa'sat > nu:a - vatsa:t (as separate words), but the final compound becomes 'núvas'

This will probably happen in quite a few compounds as Qutrussan has a preference for nouns of 2 syllables, but I'm not sure if it's at all realistic/likely/possible.
That’s perfectly fine. Frequently used words often undergo deletions that cannot be tracked to genera sound changes. It’s the most visible in the process of grammaticalization but I don’t see why such a basic word as night wouldn’t have it happen also.
User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sun 20 Oct 2013, 01:57
Location: Tom-ʾEzru lit Yat-Vṛḵažu

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 13:43

So, my conlang has word-wide tone as well as a sort of tonal harmony:
LM (˨˧) > LLH (˨˨˦) > LLLH (˨˨˨˦) > LLLLH (˨˨˨˨˦) - short rising
HM (˦˧) > HHL (˦˦˨) > HHHL (˦˦˦˨) > HHHHL (˦˦˦˦˨) - short falling
MH (˧˦) > LMH (˨˧˦) > LMHH (˨˧˦˦) > LMHHH (˨˧˦˦˦) - long rising
ML (˧˨) > HML (˦˧˨) > HMLL (˦˧˨˨) > HMLLL (˦˧˨˨˨) - long falling
HH (˨˨) > LHL (˨˦˨) > LMML (˨˧˧˨) > LMHML (˨˧˦˧˨) - peaking
LL (˦˦) > HLH (˦˨˦) > HMMH (˦˧˧˦) > HMLMH (˦˧˨˧˦) - dipping
Basically, a tonal contour is carried throughout an entire word and the contours could be parabolic rising/falling, sloping rising/falling, or peaking/dipping.
Although 2-syllable words probably won't have HH or LL contours, and 4-syllable and higher words probably wouldn't have any contour that isn't peaking/dipping.

Does this seem naturalistic? I don't really know how tones operate.
Image Ӯсцӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image ʾEšd Yatvṛḵažaẇ (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
User avatar
Zekoslav
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat 07 Oct 2017, 15:54

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 14:19

spanick wrote:
Sat 02 Dec 2017, 18:49
Quick question regarding the diachronics of South a Slavic. When would Serbo-Croatian have separated from OCS? I’m asking because the Gotski were conquered by South Slavs by the 9th Century and they continued to be the ruling class until the 15th Century.

The situation is meant to be similar to Norman England. Likewise, I’d like to borrow words for things concerning law (judge, jury, trial, etc.) but I’m not certain if it would be more appropriate to borrow from OCS or from Serbo-Croatian. The final form in Gotski changes pretty drastically. For example judge (person)
OCS: sǫdii > Gotski: sǫdzi
SC: sudija > Gotski: sodza/sudza/sudia (different forms largely depending on when this would be borrowed)
Spanick, if you need any help regarding South Slavic diachronics, I'd be glad to help, since I've done a lot of studies on the topic (especially the dreaded field of diachronical accentology...). In this case you should consider using OCS vocabulary with SC sound changes that were completed by the time of the borrowing applied to it. Sudija is in fact such a word - an OCS borrowing modified by a) loss of nasal vowels and b) loss of long i-declension. The pure SC word, which is retained in some western dialects, is actually suđa, and standard Croatian uses a form with a different suffix, sudac. To be really precise I'd have to know where exactly in the Balkans is your language spoken.
User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3948
Joined: Tue 14 Aug 2012, 18:32

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 15:28

Ahzoh wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 13:43
So, my conlang has word-wide tone as well as a sort of tonal harmony:
LM (˨˧) > LLH (˨˨˦) > LLLH (˨˨˨˦) > LLLLH (˨˨˨˨˦) - short rising
HM (˦˧) > HHL (˦˦˨) > HHHL (˦˦˦˨) > HHHHL (˦˦˦˦˨) - short falling
MH (˧˦) > LMH (˨˧˦) > LMHH (˨˧˦˦) > LMHHH (˨˧˦˦˦) - long rising
ML (˧˨) > HML (˦˧˨) > HMLL (˦˧˨˨) > HMLLL (˦˧˨˨˨) - long falling
HH (˨˨) > LHL (˨˦˨) > LMML (˨˧˧˨) > LMHML (˨˧˦˧˨) - peaking
LL (˦˦) > HLH (˦˨˦) > HMMH (˦˧˧˦) > HMLMH (˦˧˨˧˦) - dipping
Basically, a tonal contour is carried throughout an entire word and the contours could be parabolic rising/falling, sloping rising/falling, or peaking/dipping.
Although 2-syllable words probably won't have HH or LL contours, and 4-syllable and higher words probably wouldn't have any contour that isn't peaking/dipping.

Does this seem naturalistic? I don't really know how tones operate.
From what you wrote it seems realistic, but I don't get really get you LMH schemes, could you elaborate a bit? E.g. syllable or mora boundaries would help.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :fra: 4 :esp: 4 :ind:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sun 20 Oct 2013, 01:57
Location: Tom-ʾEzru lit Yat-Vṛḵažu

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 15:52

Creyeditor wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 15:28
From what you wrote it seems realistic, but I don't get really get your LMH schemes, could you elaborate a bit? E.g. syllable or mora boundaries would help.
An example is:
/mù.pu.ná/ - long rising
/mú.pu.nà/ - long falling
The relative pitch slowly increases or decreases throughout the word, as opposed to sharply increasing or decreasing near the end of the word like below:
/mù.pù.ná/ - short rising
/mú.pú.nà/ - short falling
Image Ӯсцӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image ʾEšd Yatvṛḵažaẇ (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3948
Joined: Tue 14 Aug 2012, 18:32

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 16:36

Ahzoh wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 15:52
Creyeditor wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 15:28
From what you wrote it seems realistic, but I don't get really get your LMH schemes, could you elaborate a bit? E.g. syllable or mora boundaries would help.
An example is:
/mù.pu.ná/ - long rising
/mú.pu.nà/ - long falling
The relative pitch slowly increases or decreases throughout the word, as opposed to sharply increasing or decreasing near the end of the word like below:
/mù.pù.ná/ - short rising
/mú.pú.nà/ - short falling
Does that mean that the first tone spreads to the second syllable?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :fra: 4 :esp: 4 :ind:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sun 20 Oct 2013, 01:57
Location: Tom-ʾEzru lit Yat-Vṛḵažu

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 16:40

Creyeditor wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 16:36
Does that mean that the first tone spreads to the second syllable?
I guess so. But the mid-tone should not be perceived as atonal.
Image Ӯсцӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image ʾEšd Yatvṛḵažaẇ (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
Davush
sinic
sinic
Posts: 410
Joined: Sat 10 Jan 2015, 14:10

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Davush » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 17:00

Ahzoh wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 16:40
Creyeditor wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 16:36
Does that mean that the first tone spreads to the second syllable?
I guess so. But the mid-tone should not be perceived as atonal.
Is it possible that the peak of the high toned syllable will be perceived as 'stressed' and the system ends up being a gradual up-shift in pitch towards the 'stress' or gradual down-shift away from it? I may be getting this completely wrong, but that is how I perceived it when I said those examples out loud.

mùpuná - pitch lowest on mu, bit higher on pu, and highest on na.
múpunà - same but reversed.

Would something line MMH contrast with LMH and HMH? If not it seems to resemble a pitch accent more like the Japanese down step maybe?
User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3948
Joined: Tue 14 Aug 2012, 18:32

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 17:13

Are there monosyllabic words? If so, what tones do they have?
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :fra: 4 :esp: 4 :ind:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5997
Joined: Sun 20 Oct 2013, 01:57
Location: Tom-ʾEzru lit Yat-Vṛḵažu

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 18:02

There are a good number of monosyllabic words, although they could be any of L, M, or H. This is where tonal harmony comes in; the tones in an affix would have to change if necessary to fit a contour, usually, but not always, in the direction of the tone of the root:

L + LL > LML > LHL
M + HH > MMH > LLH
M + LH > MMH > LLH
M + HL > MML > HHL
H + MM > HML or HHL
Davush wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 17:00
Ahzoh wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 16:40
Creyeditor wrote:
Sun 03 Dec 2017, 16:36
Does that mean that the first tone spreads to the second syllable?
I guess so. But the mid-tone should not be perceived as atonal.
Is it possible that the peak of the high toned syllable will be perceived as 'stressed' and the system ends up being a gradual up-shift in pitch towards the 'stress' or gradual down-shift away from it? I may be getting this completely wrong, but that is how I perceived it when I said those examples out loud.

mùpuná - pitch lowest on mu, bit higher on pu, and highest on na.
múpunà - same but reversed.

Would something line MMH contrast with LMH and HMH? If not it seems to resemble a pitch accent more like the Japanese down step maybe?
I didn't think tonal languages would have stress, but it would probably have stress follow the highest syllable.
Yes, it constrasts MMH and MML, but I think such a contrast would be quickly assimilated into LLH and HHL. Same goes for MLM and MHM.
Image Ӯсцӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image ʾEšd Yatvṛḵažaẇ (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]
User avatar
Omzinesý
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2231
Joined: Fri 27 Aug 2010, 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 20:42

Finnish has two cases of location: Inessive for being inside inside something and Adessive for being on the surface of something or near to it.
The adessive also has a "side meaning" (maybe it's the more frequent one) as an instrumental. That seems somehow "natural".

So, if a language has three local cases: one for inside, another for surface, and the third one for near, which one would develop the instrumental reading?
User avatar
Shemtov
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2154
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 21:05

When going from a Nom.-Acc. system to a Erg.-Abs one, which case in the original system is more likely to be Ergative, and which Abosultive from the Nominative and Accusative?
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3948
Joined: Tue 14 Aug 2012, 18:32

Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 21:09

Genitive cases often become ergative cases.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :fra: 4 :esp: 4 :ind:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Post Reply