(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 22:44

Yes, that sounds sensible. You could also invent a new preposition (or something similar) à la Spanish 'a' (again). But it would also work (and be interesting!) without it.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:01

What effects can consonants at POAs further back in the mouth than velar (in other words: uvulars, pharyngeals/epiglottals, and glottals) have on surrounding vowels? I know, for instance, that uvulars can cause lowering or backing, and I believe I've heard that pharyngeals can cause fronting, but are there any other possibilities? Would epiglottals have the same effects as pharyngeals? I'm mainly interested in fronting, backing, raising, and lowering.

Also, does anyone know of any languages where coda clusters are allowed to be more complex than onset clusters?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Imralu » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:59

shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:01
Also, does anyone know of any languages where coda clusters are allowed to be more complex than onset clusters?
You're writing in one.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:04

Imralu wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:59
shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:01
Also, does anyone know of any languages where coda clusters are allowed to be more complex than onset clusters?
You're writing in one.
Might I ask for a clarification? I know that you mean English, but I can't think of any words with four coda consonants.
Edit: "sixths"? I guess I meant to ask if there are languages where coda clusters are regularly and noticeably more complex than onset clusters.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:10

shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:04
Imralu wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:59
shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:01
Also, does anyone know of any languages where coda clusters are allowed to be more complex than onset clusters?
You're writing in one.
Might I ask for a clarification? I know that you mean English, but I can't think of any words with four coda consonants.
Edit: "sixths"? I guess I meant to ask if there are languages where coda clusters are regularly and noticeably more complex than onset clusters.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Imralu » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:24

shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:04
Imralu wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:59
shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:01
Also, does anyone know of any languages where coda clusters are allowed to be more complex than onset clusters?
You're writing in one.
Might I ask for a clarification? I know that you mean English, but I can't think of any words with four coda consonants.
Edit: "sixths"? I guess I meant to ask if there are languages where coda clusters are regularly and noticeably more complex than onset clusters.
Sixths, twelfths, texts. I can't think of any English word that's got more than three consonants at the start. /spl/ /spr/ /spj/ /str/ /stj/ /skr/ /skl/? /skw/ /skj/. Those are the only three-consonant onsets I can think of and they really don't make up that many of the words we say. Not a single one of the words in this post starts with three consonants, including your words that I'm quoting, and ignoring the words we've given as examples of heavy codas, there's one word we've used a few times that has three coda consoants ... < there's the word.

German's pretty similar. It allows three consonants at the beginning (a bit of a different bunch of clusters from English, includes things like /pfl/ if you decide not to analyse /pf/ as an affricate) but has some pretty heavy codas like selbst /lpst/. Swedish allows västkustskt with /stskt/ at the end. Sure, not a common word, but your original question was "where coda clusters are allowed to be more complex". As far as I know, it's pretty normal for Germanic languages.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Imralu » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:29

Ælfwine wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:10
Strengths
That's only three at the end unless you've got a /k/ in there ... but some people also have a /k/ in "angsts" which brings that up to five.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:36

Imralu wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:24
Sure, not a common word, but your original question was "where coda clusters are allowed to be more complex". As far as I know, it's pretty normal for Germanic languages.
Yes, that was my original question, but
shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:04
Edit: I guess I meant to ask if there are languages where coda clusters are regularly and noticeably more complex than onset clusters.
I should try to clarify again, since all I've accomplished so far is making myself look like an idiot. I've realized I wasn't thinking of the final -s on a lot of these words as part of their coda clusters because it belongs to a different morpheme, which I acknowledge doesn't make sense.

Are there any languages that allow coda clusters, but not onset clusters at all? Are there any languages that allow only two consonant clusters in onsets, but clusters of three or more consonants in codas?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:56

Imralu wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:24
shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:04
Imralu wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:59
shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:01
Also, does anyone know of any languages where coda clusters are allowed to be more complex than onset clusters?
You're writing in one.
Might I ask for a clarification? I know that you mean English, but I can't think of any words with four coda consonants.
Edit: "sixths"? I guess I meant to ask if there are languages where coda clusters are regularly and noticeably more complex than onset clusters.
Sixths, twelfths, texts. I can't think of any English word that's got more than three consonants at the start. /spl/ /spr/ /spj/ /str/ /stj/ /skr/ /skl/? /skw/ /skj/. Those are the only three-consonant onsets I can think of and they really don't make up that many of the words we say. Not a single one of the words in this post starts with three consonants, including your words that I'm quoting, and ignoring the words we've given as examples of heavy codas, there's one word we've used a few times that has three coda consoants ... < there's the word.

German's pretty similar. It allows three consonants at the beginning (a bit of a different bunch of clusters from English, includes things like /pfl/ if you decide not to analyse /pf/ as an affricate) but has some pretty heavy codas like selbst /lpst/. Swedish allows västkustskt with /stskt/ at the end. Sure, not a common word, but your original question was "where coda clusters are allowed to be more complex". As far as I know, it's pretty normal for Germanic languages.
In fact, the point about English as an example becomes stronger when we talk about 'regularly and noticeably'. The theoretical maximums in onsets and codas are only slightly different, but the general pattern is much more marked.

[I've colour-coded syllables with clusters in this post where either an onset cluster has more elements than the coda (blue), or the coda has more elements than the onset (reds), all assuming a rhotic dialect; obviously, many words may be analysed and syllablised differently, and different dialects will be somewhat different, but the general point remains that the blue is much rarer than the red: English codas are regularly and noticeably heavier than onsets]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 02:58

Point taken. [:S]
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 13:00

In natural speech though (outside of highly formal RP) I don't think anyone pronounce the coda in words like "strengths" with all 4 consonants. My natural pronunciation actually reduces it to something very like [st͡ʃɹɛŋs].

However, if you're looking for languages which definitely have more complex codas than onsets, the Mongolian and Wakashan are the best families to look at (the latter because despite being found only in the Pacific Northwest all the languages apart from Heiltsuk only allow single-consonant word onsets, but permit some highly complex word-internal and word-final clusters).
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 13:42

Frislander wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 13:00
In natural speech though (outside of highly formal RP) I don't think anyone pronounce the coda in words like "strengths" with all 4 consonants. My natural pronunciation actually reduces it to something very like [st͡ʃɹɛŋs].
Whereas that would be impermissable, phonologically, for me - switching POA, nasality and voicing all at once like that. For me, the 4-consonant pronunciation is much more natural - although the /T/ and /s/ may blur together somewhat*, and the [k] isn't actually phonemic.

*for me, /T/ and /s/ have the same POA but different tongue articulations, so /Ts/ is, as it were, a "fricative diphthong" - the tongue moves in away from one and in the direction of the other, but may not start precisely at /T/ or end precisely at /s/.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:02

Great question about final consonant cluster limits.

Whereas Kartvelian, Slavic and Armenian can have some initial octopedalian consonantal whoppers in initial position, I am not sure if they can allow as huge a consonant cluster in coda position.
:wat: :?: :?:

And what of this:

:wikip:
Some Salishan languages exhibit long words with no vowels at all, such as the Nuxálk word /xɬpʼχʷɬtʰɬpʰɬːskʷʰt͡sʼ/: he had had in his possession a bunchberry plant.
Do you count that as an initial consonant cluster? a final consonant cluster? Either way, it's a Mongolian ultrasauropod doozy, boy I'll tell ya.
Last edited by Lambuzhao on Fri 16 Feb 2018, 17:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:15

I hate to do this, but:
shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:01
What effects can consonants at POAs further back in the mouth than velar (in other words: uvulars, pharyngeals/epiglottals, and glottals) have on surrounding vowels? I know, for instance, that uvulars can cause lowering or backing, and I believe I've heard that pharyngeals can cause fronting, but are there any other possibilities? Would epiglottals have the same effects as pharyngeals? I'm mainly interested in fronting, backing, raising, and lowering.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:32

Arabic helps, too. No initial clusters, but can have up to two consonants at the end, even disharmonious pairs like in /ibn/, /bakr/, etc. Or are these all pronounced with schwa?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:34

Lambuzhao wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:02
Great question about final consonant cluster limits.

Whereas Kartvelian, Slavic and Armenian can have some initial octopedalian consonantal whoppers in initial position, I am not sure if they can allow as huge a consonant cluster in coda position.
:wat: :?: :?:
I can only speak to Slavic. Early Slavic only allowed open syllables (the whole yer thing...) so Slavic clusters are much more onset-heavy. While most (maybe all?) Slavic languages meanwhile allow closed syllables, this is mostly the result of yers and other stuff collapsing, while initial onsets have always been complex.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 17:08

shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 15:15
I hate to do this, but:
shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:01
What effects can consonants at POAs further back in the mouth than velar (in other words: uvulars, pharyngeals/epiglottals, and glottals) have on surrounding vowels? I know, for instance, that uvulars can cause lowering or backing, and I believe I've heard that pharyngeals can cause fronting, but are there any other possibilities? Would epiglottals have the same effects as pharyngeals? I'm mainly interested in fronting, backing, raising, and lowering.
Yeah I think epiglottals will do what pharyngeals do (seeing how Arabic pharyngeals are really epiglottals most of the time and that's the main place where the fronting effect has been found). I think glottals also have a tendency to lower, particularly the glottal stop.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Imralu » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 02:07

Turkish is similar to Arabic in that way. There are no initial clusters in native Turkic vocabulary and although final clusters are fairly rare, they do exist, such as in the word türk.

Sorry I can't help with the throaty stuff. I can say, however, that the lowering/backing effects of uvulars make sense to me because, not having them natively or in any language I'm fluent in, to pronounce them I really feel that my tongue has to sink back and I find [iq] really hard but [Aq] fairly easy.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Parlox » Sun 18 Feb 2018, 02:41

What type of script would work best for my conlang, Abʘa? It has 96 phonemes, 10 vowels and 86 consonants. I would rather not use a logography.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 18 Feb 2018, 02:45

Parlox wrote:
Sun 18 Feb 2018, 02:41
What type of script would work best for my conlang, Abʘa? It has 96 phonemes, 10 vowels and 86 consonants. I would rather not use a logography.
What syllable structure does it have? If it's relatively simple, I think a syllabary could be interesting to use
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