What did you accomplish today?

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Egerius
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Egerius » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 14:45

bbbourq wrote:
Thrice Xandvii wrote:Some folks wanted to see the cards I had made in another thread... so I worked on an entire new rank for one of them and then compiled an image showing a good deal of them so that folks can see what they look like …
This is some impressive work. I like it!
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 17:40

Awwww, thanks!
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Khemehekis » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 22:11

Thrice Xandvii wrote:(likely due to its location).
This is exactly what I had suspected!
And my only thought is that you can call it whatever you want, really. I was just saying the term suggested might be quicker for others to grok.
I really don't see much in common with the singulative. To put it this way: if I called my excerptal a "trial", all English-speaking linguists would understand what a trial was, but it would be very inaccurate in describing what the excerptal does.
*shrug* I'm really not at all certain how you determine if a construction with 13,000 exceptions and specific cases is or isn't some term you invented anyway.
All the complexity that comes from the exceptions, special cases and other rules makes Kankonian all the more like a real language. No natlang is as simple as Toki Pona, after all, except perhaps for some pidgins or ritual languages.
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Khemehekis » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 22:17

Iyionaku wrote:I didn't answer because I didn't feel qualified enough, but as nobody else did and you specifically asked again, I will try my best.

From the examples you provided, it appears that the unmarked form of a noun appears only when it doesn't matter if a noun appears in singular or plural, i.e. when the "thing" is emphasized, not the exact amount of it or a specific entity of it. It also appears if it is clear from context which particular entity is referred to, as for example when used in a genitive clause. As there is a dedicated suffix for plurals, it would be wrong to say that nouns are plurali tantum by default. Your excerptial is used, however, when referring to a single unit of something that has not been specified before. You mentioned body parts, but it's not clear from your examples if there is any specific connection to it; more, it seems that the excerptial is also used if there is more than one possible entity. "your shoulder" uses the excerptial because there are two possible entities, whereas "my dog" does not because there is only one. That also concurs with the "daughters" example.

Altogether, this reminds me closest of the "Mugatu" vs. "Mugagabe" distinction in Basque - the sources I have unfortunately don't call it any differently than that. I'd propose that your excerptial is more along the line of a demonstrative/definite suffix. As it can be used with more than one unit, I wouldn't consider it be a "singulative". In conclusion, I would say as its exact usage is not really comparable to anything else it's valid for you to use your own terminology.
Thank you for taking the time to analyze the excerptal in Kankonian! I'll have to look more into the "Mugatu" vs. "Mugagabe" distinction in Basque. I don't know much about this language isolate, but it could be an inspiration for things I could do with the excerptal!

And I've also thought of another grammar rule about the excerptal that I need to specidy. I hear all of you groaning now. I've added this to my grammar:



Although a "one of" excerptal becomes "wit", "deyit" or "met", an excerptal such as "bam beinet" (two of the boys) or "em wit" (three of us) does not excerptalize when it is referred back to with a pronoun. Rather, a plural such as "mem" (for "bam beinet") or "wir" (for "em wit") would be used:

Goka* bam go*ishet g*ementizen, mem azhuweishizen im spekatem ghoshi we.
although two lamp-EXCPT break-PSV-PST 3p glue-PSV-PST so_as_to put_back_together quick ADV
Although two of the lamps were broken, they were glued back together quickly.



One more wrinkle in the grammar!
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by kiwikami » Mon 16 Oct 2017, 06:48

"Loom-form" handwritten HyPry is a thing now - it's a little more intuitive to write than the ceremonial sun-form system as it reflects the actual word order in most cases, has a few useful abbreviations (also differing from sun-form in a handful of roots and the more common noun class markers), and will eventually evolve into a cursive thread-form when I get around to figuring out how that works. It's compared (on the left) with the sun-form (on the right) below. There's a typo in the sun-form first sentence that suggests the storm has volition, and there's far too much whitespace in the sun-form second sentence to be formally acceptable. Oops.

Image
Dräxw tlwum fih da, rën zwërz a.
c24-storm attack in.excess=arg1 CLS24 PST c4-sun=CLS4 IND
It was storming all day yesterday.

(There is a peculiar sort of zen in sitting at a desk, alone, conlanging, during a thunderstorm. I asked nature for assistance. "Storm, from what should I derive the particle to express excessive quantity?" "*phone beeps loudly as flash flood warning is issued*" "Ah, yes, that'll work.")
Also just realized the arg1 marker, which in an active voice verb generally indicates an instrument or non-agent participant, uses a glyph identical to that of (the noun root "ball". Hm.)


Image
Thefi wëze ti zum, therashar, a the.
c13-floodwater become PFV hearsay CLS13-PL=c13-river-PL IND CLS13
Apparently some rivers flooded.

Additionally, I am... somewhat half-jokingly beginning to wonder if it would be technically incorrect to say that most words in HyPry are actually clitics. As little sense as that makes, every one, with few exceptions, has an alternate form (or two, or six) depending on the phonology of the word directly preceding it; in these cases, initial consonants tend to behave as word-medial, as if the two words are now phonologically one unit. Even the small handful of prefixes may behave as if attached to the previous word, and will drag whatever they're prefixed to along with them. Therashar above is "rivers, which are doing something to some other aforementioned flowing liquid" [in context, they are joining the set of flooded bodies of water] and is underlyingly the-ra the-aha-ra, where that second the glues itself to the preceding word and pulls the noun aha river and the second plural affix, triggering word-medial-esque lenition and vowel elision. Even the most salient of content words may be reduced to a suffixed consonant cluster if the phonological environment of the previous word is correct - perhaps it's not cliticization so much as it is extreme phonological dependence?
Last edited by kiwikami on Mon 16 Oct 2017, 19:38, edited 2 times in total.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Mon 16 Oct 2017, 06:56

Ok.... I really need to know how those squiggles encode anything, because I know there is method to the madness but I can't even pretend to figure it out.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh » Mon 16 Oct 2017, 07:36

Made some progress with defining the coastline of one of my conworld's continents:
Image
Green - 0m (sea level)
Beige - 200m
Sand-Brown - 500m
Orange-Brown - 1000m
Brown - 2000m
Purple - 4000m+
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Creyeditor » Mon 16 Oct 2017, 08:37

kiwikami wrote:Additionally, I am... somewhat half-jokingly beginning to wonder if it would be technically incorrect to say that most words in HyPry are actually clitics. As little sense as that makes, every one, with few exceptions, has an alternate form (or two, or six) depending on the phonology of the word directly preceding it; in these cases, initial consonants tend to behave as word-medial, as if the two words are now phonologically one unit. Even the small handful of prefixes may behave as if attached to the previous word, and will drag whatever they're prefixed to along with them. Therashar above is "rivers, which are doing something to some other aforementioned flowing liquid" [in context, they are joining the set of flooded bodies of water] and is underlyingly the-ra the-aha-ra, where that second the glues itself to the preceding word and pulls the noun aha river and the second plural affix, triggering word-medial-esque lenition and vowel elision. Even the most salient of content words may be reduced to a suffixed consonant cluster if the phonological environment of the previous word is correct - perhaps it's not cliticization so much as it is extreme phonological dependence?
I would actually call it phrasal (or even utterance level) phonology. Languages often have phonological processes applying across word boundaries. And yes, this is more than intonation and some minimal changes in vowel quality [:D]
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by gestaltist » Mon 16 Oct 2017, 11:50

Ahzoh wrote:Made some progress with defining the coastline of one of my conworld's continents:
Image
Green - 0m (sea level)
Beige - 200m
Sand-Brown - 500m
Orange-Brown - 1000m
Brown - 2000m
Purple - 4000m+
Looks nice. One criticism is that the purple kinda looks like water. Maybe you could change it to black or something?
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Fluffy8x » Mon 16 Oct 2017, 13:41

An attempt at a conscript for Lek-Tsaro. This is inspired by a childhood cypher of mine, where each pair of glyphs were fused together (e. g. E was a crescent with 2 diagonal strokes, so combining another glyph with E would add the characteristic diagonal strokes to it).

Consonants only, since vowels will be represented by diacritics. This means a total of 288 diacritics (11 vowels plus 1 for no vowel, for both the vowel between the two consonants and the one after the second, and accounting for reverse glyph order).

If it's not clear, the w+ combination involves superimposing a glyph onto a copy of itself rotated 180 degrees.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh » Mon 16 Oct 2017, 18:35

gestaltist wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Made some progress with defining the coastline of one of my conworld's continents:
Image
Green - 0m (sea level)
Beige - 200m
Sand-Brown - 500m
Orange-Brown - 1000m
Brown - 2000m
Purple - 4000m+
Looks nice. One criticism is that the purple kinda looks like water. Maybe you could change it to black or something?
These are all colours I've used based on this map:
https://www.mapsofworld.com/physical-ma ... -world.jpg
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by kiwikami » Mon 16 Oct 2017, 19:37

Creyeditor wrote:I would actually call it phrasal (or even utterance level) phonology. Languages often have phonological processes applying across word boundaries. And yes, this is more than intonation and some minimal changes in vowel quality [:D]
That makes good sense! I suppose I didn't think of it as phrasal simply because, as you implied, people tend to think "intonation" when thinking about that. [:D] Thanks!
Thrice Xandvii wrote:Ok.... I really need to know how those squiggles encode anything, because I know there is method to the madness but I can't even pretend to figure it out.
I think saying there's a method may be giving me too much credit, but I'll break down one of the examples, Dräxw tlwum fih da, rën zwërz a. (Below a spoiler cut because it's a big image-heavy.)
Spoiler: show
Sun-form script starts with the verb. Here's the root for attack, a very simple one; the notation I use describes this as "extended full bar 11,1 ; extended half bar 5,7":
Image

All root glyphs have an entry point at 12 noon; additional glyphs in sun-form are added within the root's external circle clockwise from that point (loom-form starts with the first argument's glyph rather than the verb's, but does something similar). The only argument of attack is storm, whose root (again a very simple one) is given below (quarter triple spiral 6); my apologies for my poor spiral-drawing-with-mouse skills:
Image

This is a class 24 noun, and takes the appropriate classifier, which also has an entry point; this point doesn't have to line up with that of the noun itself, but if the noun is not fully enclosed within the outer circle of the verb's glyph, it becomes important, as the entry point must be in the part of the noun that is within the verb. The class 24 marker is "chord 12-6 ; quarter arc 12-6":
Image

Added to the storm root, you get:
Image

Stick that in the root. If we orient it so that the chord of the class marker terminates on the verb's outer circle, we can extend it so that it's also a chord for the verb itself; this helps to fill whitespace, which is desirable in the rather ceremonial sun-form script. Storm actually occupies the second argument position, not the first (it's the thing doing the attacking), so we need the first-argument placeholder somewhere counterclockwise of it but after (or on) the verb's entry point. This is where the typo was in the other post; I accidentally used the second-argument placeholder instead, which makes the storm a causative agent with both volition and intention. Below is the verb with storm and arg1 added:
Image

Now the prepositional phrase. Prepositions go outside the outer circle; the negative reference time marker, glossed as "PST", is next when moving clockwise ("twin extended hoop"). "Yesterday" uses the root for sun (quarter hoop ; three-quarter dot) in class 4 (quarter bar 10,2,6 ; outer hoop 6:30). The object of the preposition goes after the preposition itself and intersects the main verb:
Image

Then there's just the particle fi which indicates excess or extreme duration ("all day"); I actually made another typo with this one in the earlier post, leaving out the three dots (and thus accidentally writing the particle meaning very). Fi is derived from a noun (most particles are) and takes the form of part of that noun's glyph sliced into a crescent or semicircular shape, which can extend anywhere between roughly a sixth and a third of the way around the verb root. The noun root fi is written as "quarter dot 12; eighth dot 5,6,7"; this gets turned into the arc seen in the final glyph below. I... also added that "outer hoop 6:30" on the class 4 marker, which I'd left out in the above image. Oops.
Image

That's "Dräxw tlwum fih da, rën zwërz a" (It was storming all day yesterday) in sun-form script. So, um, aside from my awful attempts at drawing spirals using a mouse... that's how that works. The final form of the sentence above is different from the one given earlier because certain rotations of glyphs were just better-looking on a computer than when hand-drawn, but the two are functionally identical (save for the typos).
Loom-form script differs in that you start with the first argument, rather than the verb (which better aligns with actual word order while speaking), and restrictions on startpoints and endpoints are significantly more lax, with some glyphs gaining extra elements to ease distinction from other glyphs that in sun-form would differ only in where on the metaphorical clockface each radical lies. Though this is less necessary than one might think, in particular with nouns, which also may be distinguished via class markers; storm and vortex are both just quarter triple spirals (three layers of a spiral starting from less than half of the radius away from the outer circle) at hours 6 and 1 respectively, but storm is usually in class 24 (or 3 if we're referring metaphorically to corrupt government officials, or 4 if someone has time-traveled and severely broken the space-time continuum), while vortex is usually in 4, 13, or... I think 12 is the other one. I don't have my notes handy at the moment, and cannot check.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by eldin raigmore » Mon 16 Oct 2017, 22:27

kiwikami wrote:
....
I think saying there's a method may be giving me too much credit, but I'll break down one of the examples, Dräxw tlwum fih da, rën zwërz a. (Below a spoiler cut because it's a big image-heavy.)

[ spoiler ] Sun-form script starts with the verb. Here's the root for attack, a very simple one; the notation I use describes this as "extended full bar 11,1 ; extended half bar 5,7":
[ img ] https://image.ibb.co/cOULQm/HP_attack.png [ /img ]
.....
final form of the sentence above is different from the one given earlier because certain rotations of glyphs were just better-looking on a computer than when hand-drawn, but the two are functionally identical (save for the typos). [ /spoiler ]
Loom-form script differs in that you start with the first argument, rather than the verb (which better aligns with actual word order while speaking), and restrictions on startpoints and endpoints are significantly more lax, with some glyphs gaining extra elements to ease distinction from other glyphs that in sun-form would differ only in where on the metaphorical clockface each radical lies. Though
....
4 if someone has time-traveled and severely broken the space-time continuum), while vortex is usually in 4, 13, or... I think 12 is the other one. I don't have my notes handy at the moment, and cannot check.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh » Tue 17 Oct 2017, 08:36

I finished the heightmap of one of my continents. Although it seems to have a lot more terrain above 200m but under 500m than the Earth.

I'm thinking one of my languages will undergo a change where its singular gender endings (feminine -ā and masculine -ē) are completely dropped leaving pharyngealization/velarization and palatalization of word-final consonants, respectively, as a trace.
I was rather inspired by the Mongolian name for Gobi being Gowĭ which is pronounced [ɢɔwʲ].

lātă [laːtˤ] horse < lātā
māpĭ [maːpʲ] bear < māpē
But
lātan [laːtan] horses
māpel [maːpel] bears
Last edited by Ahzoh on Tue 17 Oct 2017, 19:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by lsd » Tue 17 Oct 2017, 16:06

kiwikami wrote:There is a peculiar sort of zen in sitting at a desk, alone, conlanging, during a thunderstorm.
it is an amazing pastime to draw glyphs according to what surrounds you ...
As soon as I have a timeout somewhere I look for a piece of paper where to draw signs ...
gallifreyan seems a good ways of it...
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Frislander » Tue 17 Oct 2017, 18:46

So on my conlang sideblog I've done a post or two regarding the conworlding aspects of Frislandian, this being the first time I've ever put anything about it in its current form on the web. There's next to no actual conlang information but it's a start.

(Also @Thrice Xavandii the second post uses the flag you made, just to say thanks once again for it).
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:06

Ahzoh wrote:
gestaltist wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Made some progress with defining the coastline of one of my conworld's continents:
Image
Green - 0m (sea level)
Beige - 200m
Sand-Brown - 500m
Orange-Brown - 1000m
Brown - 2000m
Purple - 4000m+
Looks nice. One criticism is that the purple kinda looks like water. Maybe you could change it to black or something?
These are all colours I've used based on this map:
https://www.mapsofworld.com/physical-ma ... -world.jpg
Indeed... and it's still a bad choice of color on that map, IMO.

As such:
Image

I feel like a brownish red is a good choice as it simply moves to a darker and darker shade as the elevation increases.
Frislander wrote:(Also @Thrice Xavandii the second post uses the flag you made, just to say thanks once again for it).
No problem, my dude. :)
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:08

I feel like a brownish red is a good choice as it simply moves to a darker and darker shade as the elevation increases.
You're right. That is a better colour choice.
I spent all day writing this article on ConWorkShop:
https://conworkshop.info/view_article.p ... e467ab876e

It give details for each language in its own separate section as well providing the diachronics that lead to each language. I don't know what I was trying to achieve trying to blend the presentation style of Index Diachronica with CBB/ZBB-style language pages (with the phonology, grammar, syntax, etc.).
Last edited by Ahzoh on Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:16

It also gives room to use a deeper redder color for an even higher elevation should you so desire/need one, whereas the other shade is out of nowhere and leaves you with no logical next step, at least, not one that would visually make sense.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh » Wed 18 Oct 2017, 08:22

*sigh* Though my map still looks topgraphically bare compared to that map of the Earth I reference. It seems that most of the Earth is either at sea level or above 500m.
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