What did you accomplish today?

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Fluffy8x
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Fluffy8x » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 14:12

Started working on Middle Rymakonian (a descendant of Lek-Tsaro) recently. Unlike LT, this language uses phonoruns, and the processes going around those tend to shuffle a lot of words. It also has oblique arguments, but with weird rules due to heritage from a language that didn't have any.
an siina levian t'isorakateez
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eldin raigmore
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 14:43

Fluffy8x wrote:
Fri 29 Dec 2017, 14:12
.... this language uses phonoruns, and the processes going around those tend to shuffle a lot of words. ....
What are phonoruns ?
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Fluffy8x » Fri 29 Dec 2017, 23:44

eldin raigmore wrote:
Fri 29 Dec 2017, 14:43
What are phonoruns ?
Here you go.
an siina levian t'isorakateez
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by eldin raigmore » Sat 30 Dec 2017, 01:50

Fluffy8x wrote:
Fri 29 Dec 2017, 23:44
eldin raigmore wrote:
Fri 29 Dec 2017, 14:43
What are phonoruns ?
Here you go.
Thanks.

Does "an siina levian t'isorakateez" mean that Fluffy8x is somehow related to Isoraqathedh?

BTW I saw a kind of "antisyllable" put to good use.
Imagine if a "syllable's" nucleus were a consonant or consonant-cluster, while its "onset" and "coda", if it had one, were vowels or vowel-clusters.
Some conlanger whom I should credit took all the sequences of vowel-cluster-followed-by-consonant-cluster-followed-by-vowel-cluster that occurred in any language, then randomly strung them together so that the vowel "coda" of one antisyllable matched up with the vowel "onset" of the next antisyllable.
He thus invented pseudo-words (and pseudo-phrases and other pseudo-utterances) which "sounded like" that language.
It worked pretty well.

So might "phonoruns".



All of my conlangs have a sonority hierarchy that governs phonotactics in such a way that syllabification is unambiguous.
Many natlangs also have such a sonority hierarchy; and while the details and minutiae of such hierarchies tend to be language-specific, the overall general thrust of each language's sonority hierarchy is the same as that of all the others. Stops and plosives are least sonorous; next might be affricates, then fricatives, then trills, taps, or flaps, then nasals, then liquids, then approximants, then semivowels, and most sonorous would be vowels (open vowels more sonorous than close vowels, and unrounded vowels more sonorous than rounded vowels). (I may have details wrong? But not many, and not very wrong.) Within that, unvoiced phonemes are less sonorous than voiced phonemes.

In Adpihi (and the rest of my conlangs probably), whenever two consonant phonemes occur in the same margin of the same syllable, the one closer to the nucleus must be more sonorous than the one further from the nucleus.
In Adpihi (but maybe only most of the others), if two consonant phonemes occur equally distant from the nucleus of the same syllable, the one in the coda must be more sonorous than the one in the onset.
This means that a syllable-nucleus always is or contains a sonority-peak.
A syllable begins at either the beginning of its word or at a sonority-trough (a phoneme that is less sonorous than either of its neighbors).
A syllable ends at either the end of its word or just before a sonority-trough.
Syllable boundaries immediately precede sonority-troughs.
If two phonemes of equal sonority occur consecutively in a word, they must be separated by a syllable-boundary. This applies whether they are both consonants or both vowels. It also means that the middle phoneme of a three-phoneme cluster of same-sonority phonemes, must be a syllable all by itself.
If a word begins with a consonant that is more sonorous than the next phoneme in the word, that consonant is a nuclear consonant.
If a word ends with a consonant that is more sonorous than the preceding phoneme in the word, that consonant is a nuclear consonant.
And if a consonant is internal to a word and is more sonorous than either of its neighbors, that consonant is a nuclear consonant.
If a word contains a three-vowel cluster that is open-close-open, there is a syllable boundary between the first open vowel and the close vowel; it is ... open / close-open ...
If a word contains a three-vowel cluster that is unrounded-rounded-unrounded, there is a syllable boundary between the first unrounded vowel and the rounded vowel; it is ... unrounded / rounded-unrounded ...

All of that is just to show that the question of "what is a syllable" need not be indefinite at all.
Most natlangs more-or-less sort-of almost adhere to the above rules, or something like them.
Among those that adhere to them strictly, syllabification is well-defined and, modulo differences in their sonority-hierarchies, cross-linguistic.

So, I might never use "phonoruns" in any of my own conlangs.



So, I just gave you a reason why I might like "phonoruns"; and then a reason why I might not.
I wasn't criticizing; I was just comparing and contrasting. I hope you found it interesting, or at least not too boring!



I might as well confess that the reason I first asked my question was, I wondered, "How on Earth could someone make such a typo while trying to type 'pronoun'?"
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by felipesnark » Sat 30 Dec 2017, 21:01

I updated Shonkasika's online lexicon and reversal index. The lexicon now includes gender for nouns, declension class for adjectives, and conjugation class for verbs.
https://felipesnark.weebly.com/lexicon.html
Visit my website for my blogs and information on my conlangs including Shonkasika: http://felipesnark.weebly.com/ It's a work in progress!
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by loglorn » Sun 31 Dec 2017, 00:31

Did this yesterday, but that's ok.

So, i'm reforming my first conlang, Kamëzet (shitty Portuguese documentation in my sig), into a protolang to use in CWS's collabworld, Sahar. So yesterday i translated a relatively complex sentence, which led me to think about complement and relative clauses in Proto-Kame, which is how i'm calling the revised version. So here it is:

kuegegeroanka nölhylhömylu bolnödlesi rai kuezas biulisiihilkö
kue-ge~gero-a-nka nö-lhy-lhömy-l-u bol-nö-dles-i ra-i kue-zas biu-lisi-ii-lkö
1-WIT~want-PRES.ACT-3n 3n-SS-eat-INF-ACC 2-3n-bowl-GEN rice-GEN 1-mother.NOM 3f-make-ANT-SO
I want to eat your bowl of rice that my mom made.

I still need to reform the lexicon, which is the biggest lexicon i've ever done, at about 1300 words. The problem is that it's 1:1 on Portuguese, even following the same derivational paths for the most part, and, as it's going to be used as a protolang that's set to circa 3500 BCE, i need to decide what i'm going to do with all the words that are culturally or technologically not applicable, such as kyjagte, 'computer'. I might put up a thread on Proto-Kame but don't hold your breaths.
Edit: I also think this was my 200th post! Yay!
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Sun 31 Dec 2017, 02:37

I've been working with agglutionation lately, and I've learned that it's super easy to have phonemes fuse together, which is pretty handy for evolving more conlangs, but also a bit of a pain when I want the agglutination to be consistent and keep the phonemes from bleeding into each other too much. Oh, well. Here a whole wall of text from my notes on my current conlang, unnamed for now. Make note that cognates and dialectal differences are divided with this bar: |

I'll post more info on the conpeople that speak this lang in another thread, for now just know that there are several tribes of shepherds and nomads that roam the fields by a large mountain range, and are, compared to their neighbours, mostly peaceful. They value safety, protection, guidance, and the wide expanse of the grasslands and steppes for their sheep, and though they fear the mountains, they recognize the safety it brings them from the seasonal raidings of the Beast Kings. Though they look after sheep, they do not consider themselves Beast Kings, for they feel the sheep depend on them as much as they depend on the sheep, which is true for the most part. They can be as timid as their livestock, and fear the forest above all things, for the ground is not ripe for grazing and herding, and they believe the trees stand where the dead were once buried, so the forest acts as a constant reminder of the death they retreat from. In this view, the grassland equates to life and it's ability to thrive, for as long as there is grass to graze, these people can survive.

Like in many cultures, real and invented, they value a hierarchy to keep their people united and their values in line with their survival, and, in the case of men, they generally fall in these roles:
tamulúʃa "elder, wiseman"
táku "host, head of the house; father"
tigáwi "protector; shepherd;" also "warrior" in some tribes
tadánu "watcher, guardian"
túpraʃ "shepherd, herdsman"
Spoiler:
t(a)- is the human class marker.

And the shepherds see these words as having the most significance in their daily lives:
gúpraʃ"nomad" (can also mean "person")
ʃúpraʃ "sheep"


And now, here is some diachronic madness:
Spoiler:
*ɬe- (animal class sg.)
*ɬu- (animal class pl.)
*ta- (human class sg.)
*ti- (human clas pl.)
*me- (plant/nature class sg.)
*mu- (plant/nature class pl.)

*ɬújahusi ~ *ɬjáhusi "meat" (animal)
*tijahusi "flesh, meat, body" (human)

*ɬújiusi > *ɬújjuʃ > ʃújjuʃ | ɬuʝʝúʃ "meat (animal)"
*ʃáu̯si > *ʃoːʃə > ʃuʃ | ʃoʃ | ʃóʃa "meat (animal)"
*ɬújiusi > *ɬʷújjuʃ > *ɸújjuʃ > hújjoʃ | fújjuʃ | wújjoʃ, wújjaʃ "meat"
*ɸujjús > *fwijús > wijós "meat"

*tíjahusi > *tíjawsi > *tʃjáwʃ | *tʃáwzɪ > tjoʃ | tjos | ʃuz | ʃoʃ | ʃos "flesh, meat" (human)

*méjahusi "bark, plant matter; corpse (figurative) > *mʲéjausi > *ɲójoːʃ > ójjoʃ | ájjuʃ "bark, wood, trunk, plant matter; corpse" (*nojuʃ is the expected result)

*tíjahusi > *tʲíjausi > *tʃújoːʃ > tújuʃ "body, flesh" (human) (influence from duju "body, heaviness, weight")
*ɬégawaprati "the wandering animal, animal of a nomad/wanderer"

*ɬe- (animal class) + *gawa- (part of group) + *prati- ("step, go, walk")
*ɬégawaprati > *ɬʲégoːpratʲɨ ~ *ɬʲə́ɣoːpratʲɨ > *ʃówoːpraʃə > *ʃuːpraʃ > ʃúpraʃ "sheep"

*ɬégəwprati "sheep, flock of sheep" > *ɬʲə́ɣopratʲɨ > *ʃóbraʃə > ʃóbraʃ | ʃobráʃa, ʃobráʃə "flock of sheep, sheep (pl.)"
*ɬúgəwprati > *ɬʷúɣopratʲɨ > *ɸíwopratʃ > *fíwpraʃ > wjúpraʃ?
*ɸiwópraʃ > iwópraʃ "flock of sheep, herd"

*ɬúgəwpratijahusi "sheep meat, mutton, meat of sheep, lamb"
> *ɬʷúɣopritʲiwsʲi > *ɸúwopʃtʃiwʃ > fwótʃːiwʃ | fwóːtʃːiws > wótʃiwʃ | wátʃiwʃ | fóːtʃjus

(h)uwátiwʃ, úwatjuʃ "sheep meat, mutton, meat of sheep"

húwat "ewe"

*ɸíwopratʃkiː "lamb, baby sheep" > *híwpratkiː > *híwratti > hiwrátti "lamb, baby sheep"
*mékʰala > *mʲə́kʰola > *mákola | *ɲə́kula > makúla | jakúla "tree"
makulátiwʃ ("meat of tree") > "bark, timber, wood; fruit"
ʃelupétiwʃ "dog meat"
wújjaʃma | wujjáʃma (adj.) "meaty, thick, large, tough (of meats and food items)"

makuláʃoʃ "wood, bark"
makulaʃóʃma "wooden; stiff, rigid, stable, sturdy"
twakulaʃóʃma "wooden people, wood-carving statues; (fig.) the dead, the deceased"
twakulaʃoʃmaqúqu "the afterlife, the forest (literally "a home for wooden people"; based on belief that forests are the result of humans dying and being buried)
kákun, kaku? kakúa "house" ??
*gəw- (group) + *ków "to house, shelter" > goku "village, community, town"
*gáwakow "villager, citizen, denizen" > *góːkow > gúku "villager, citizen"
*mqupa-ku "house" > qubáku | quwáku "house, home"

*múkʰala "forest" > mʷúkʰola > wikúla > wikúli "forest"
*múkʰalaqupaku "cabin, house in the forest" > *mʷúkʰoliqubaku > *wíkuliqoːku > wikúliquku | wikuliqúku "gatehouse? (gatehouses usually at entrances of forests), forest hideout? (slang); graveyard? (people are usually buried in forests to become trees)"

-quku "house of, a place containing, a place for, etc."

ʃóʃquku | ʃoʃqúku "butchery, slaughterhouse"

ʃobráʃaququ | ʃobraʃaqúku "a pen for sheep, (figuratively) the open field, grassland, prairie"

ʃobraʃámoʃ "wool (lit. "sheep hair")
moʃqúku "barber shop, the barber's house"
ʃobraʃgóku "village of sheep"
walu- "to howl, yell, shout, call out"
ʃuwálu "wolf (lit. "the howler")

walája nahópu "I wish he howls" (3rd ps. imperative?)
nahópu ~ nópu "I wish, I want, I yearn, I desire" (also used for imperatives)
kawalája nópu "Howl! Scream! Yell!"
kekeʃéje nópu "Give!" ("I want you to give!")
> kekʃéjno
> keʃéino
> kakaʃájnap
> keːʃínom
> kakaʃíːnu

k(a)- (2nd ps.)
káwala | kawála "you howled, screamed, yelled"


Storytime!
áwala ʃuwálu, "kekeʃéje nópa náni kulʃobráʃa!"
"julváqquʃ!" úlukkuʃu túpraʃ.
úsuqu túpraʃ dulukʃóʃnaʃ jalʃuwálu.


The wolf howled, "Give me your sheep!"
"Not on your life!" the shepherd said.
The shepherd then tore away the wolf's flesh.
ʃamáma "good"
ʃabúza "bee"
ʃamáma ʃabúza "(a) good bee"

dája jallalúpa ʃabuzaququána ʃamáma ʃabúza.

dája ʃamáma ʃabúza jallalúpa ʃabuzaququána.

"A good bee does his labour for the hive."
I'll post the glosses for the phrases when I get the chance. Does this feel agglutinative enough? This conlang is basically a response to myself from working on another conlang that was analytical and mostly isolating, which drove me right into the synthetic side of things once again. At some point I'll revisit that other lang, too, it's been a hot minute.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ælfwine » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 02:10

I'm in the process of reworking my noun declensions in Mannish. Initially I had not considered the affect of prepositions upon the cases except for the vocative, which is built upon the exclamation O'. Now I've included prepositions that would affect the dative and genitive cases as well.

Since the nominative and dative suffix is the same for feminine nouns, I decided to use this example to showcase how initial mutations in Mannish can change the use of the noun. Let's take a look at the noun pera meaning "pear."

pera /'pEr@/
pear
"a pear"

definiteness is marked by changing the initial consonant to a nasal and adding the definite article en. However, unlike in Irish which voices the consonant, the consonant is kept unvoiced.

en mhera /@ 'm_0Er@/ "the pear" (this is the closest I can to representing an unvoiced bilabial nasal stop in xsampa)
pear-DEF
"the pear"

dative constructions are represented with either the preposition í "in" á "on" or sometimes frá "from." They all have the unique tendency to voice the following consonant, as in Danish:

í bera /i: 'bEr@/
in pear-DAT
"in a pear"

I've not quite figured out how to construct dative frases: do I want to keep both the preposition and definite article after it like in English, or perhaps drop the article since it is marked on the noun anyway?

Example of the latter:

í mera /i: 'mEr@/
in pear-DAT-DEF
"in the pear"

I think I'll go with that, as it completes the spectrum of mutations.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Fluffy8x » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 23:14

eldin raigmore wrote:
Sat 30 Dec 2017, 01:50
Does "an siina levian t'isorakateez" mean that Fluffy8x is somehow related to Isoraqathedh?
It means "I like Isoraķatheð's clongos" (letting you all guess the language). Really obvious by now. Your stuff on syllables was interesting, too.

Something something Middle Rymakonian.

Image

Edit: romanisation.

aþht ni, ña7 nai.t ni, přizel, ña8 ptool8 ran7.
an siina levian t'isorakateez
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 11:39

Between some things Eldin linked to in another thread, some comparisons, a bit of combining of words, etc. I think I have created my list of verbs for the closed class of verbs in Shitaal. There are currently 17 of them, which I find to be a rather nice number... not as nice as 37, but I did want a considerably smaller collection of them.

At present, they are: be, break, come, do, get, give, go, have/hold, hit, lie, make, open, perceive, put, say, stay, and take.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Ahzoh » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 13:35

I now have the name of the language, Onshchen, written in its script:
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It also looks like a face.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Dormouse559 » Thu 04 Jan 2018, 08:31

I changed the marking of stress in Silvish. It used to be that the grave accent marked nearly all instances of final stress. Now, it still marks a final stressed syllable, but only when a word ends in <e>, <i> or <ou>, the only letters that could also appear in a final unstressed syllable.

The change makes the rule more complex, but it greatly cuts down the number of diacritics while keeping ambiguity low. For example:

Before:
En joùr, en-z-otr'Ò, en væzènt, s'approtchà du batàs e dì : Par quæ tu bàt ton às ?

After:
En jour, en-z-otr'O, en væzent, s'approtcha du batas e dì : Par quæ tu bat ton as ?

[ɛ̃ˈʑuʁ | ɛ̃n.zəˈtʁo | ɛ̃ɱ.vɛˈzɛ̃nt | sap.pʁɔˈɕa dy.bəˈtas əˈdi | paˈkɛː tyˈbat tŋ̩ˈas]


I might keep the original stress marking for dictionaries and teaching materials, à la Russian. :roll: We'll see.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Thu 04 Jan 2018, 10:04

I made some fledgling sentences in Shitaal:

https://www.frathwiki.com/User:Thirty7/ ... Verb_Stuff
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by bbbourq » Fri 05 Jan 2018, 02:39

I have finalized the word order in Lortho:
  1. Basic word order is VSO
  2. Word order changes to SVO in the vocative case
  3. Adjectives are placed before the noun
  4. Adverbs are places after the verb
  5. The question marker (Q) is placed at the beginning of the sentence to denote a question (required)
  6. Interrogatives are placed in the appropriate order based on their role in the sentence
http://lortho.conlang.org

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Creyeditor » Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:51

How does vocative case SVO work?
Is it like you have "Praises the man the woman." vs. "Oh father, the man praises the woman"?
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Frislander » Fri 05 Jan 2018, 13:42

Also having the word order change when there is a vocative NP feels highly unnatural to me. Also the phrasing is weird, because it seems to indicate that the vocative case works at the clause level, whereas in fact the opposite is the case, since the vocative is very much an adjunct to the clause (which is incidentally also why that rule feels unnatural, since an adjunct doesn't have any kind of effect on the word order of the main clause).

Otherwise the rules seem OK. Note that the thing with question words being in their original syntactic locations is called WH-in-situ.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by bbbourq » Sat 06 Jan 2018, 08:12

Frislander wrote:
Fri 05 Jan 2018, 13:42
Also having the word order change when there is a vocative NP feels highly unnatural to me. Also the phrasing is weird, because it seems to indicate that the vocative case works at the clause level, whereas in fact the opposite is the case, since the vocative is very much an adjunct to the clause (which is incidentally also why that rule feels unnatural, since an adjunct doesn't have any kind of effect on the word order of the main clause).

Otherwise the rules seem OK. Note that the thing with question words being in their original syntactic locations is called WH-in-situ.
This is precisely the reason I posted it, thank you for the feedback. I wasn't 100% sure about the vocative case and I agree it feels rather unnatural; I just couldn't pinpoint it. I am still unsure how the vocative case should work in an SVO language, so I am looking for suggestions and I will need to do more research.
Creyeditor wrote:
Fri 05 Jan 2018, 12:51
How does vocative case SVO work?
Is it like you have "Praises the man the woman." vs. "Oh father, the man praises the woman"?
In my mind, it is more like your second example; this is a little bit of uncharted territory for me. Honestly, I think it boils down to not knowing how to use the vocative case. Thank you both for the questions/comments.
http://lortho.conlang.org

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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Frislander » Sat 06 Jan 2018, 13:56

bbbourq wrote:
Sat 06 Jan 2018, 08:12
This is precisely the reason I posted it, thank you for the feedback. I wasn't 100% sure about the vocative case and I agree it feels rather unnatural; I just couldn't pinpoint it. I am still unsure how the vocative case should work in an SVO language, so I am looking for suggestions and I will need to do more research.
Well you really don't need to do anything more with it that just tack it on at the edge of the sentence without it really relating to the rest of it, because that's pretty much all it does.
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Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by Reyzadren » Sun 07 Jan 2018, 01:29

Added another publication onto the Frathwiki bibliography page, which brings the total number of griuskant books to 3.

That is 1 textbook, and 2 storybooks that are completely written in griuskant.
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Posts: 508
Joined: Mon 15 Feb 2016, 06:10
Location: Napa Valley, California

Re: What did you accomplish today?

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Tue 09 Jan 2018, 20:52

I made a decision to add syllabic /n/ to Lihmelinyan. I originally did have it, but took it out. I think it will be cool. Syllabic resonants are underrated [:D]

Therefore the third plural present of an athematic verb like pánahmi - "I gird, surround" will contain it: panáhn̩ti
Don't live to conlang; conlang to live.

My conlang: Image Lihmelinyan
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