False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

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ixals
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by ixals » Sun 11 Feb 2018, 01:03

Imralu wrote:
Sat 10 Feb 2018, 18:48
Thanks for the answers!
ixals wrote:I'd also say that people more familiar with LGBT+ rights would prefer Outing over Coming-Out for (A) because most new ideas, sources and media are English.
Häh? That makes no sense to me. Both of those words are from English and in English, Outing is definitely (B) and Coming-Out is definitely (A).
Aaah, I'm sorry, my mistake. [>_<] I mixed up (A) and (B)! Outing is the standard term for (A) and (B), but people familiar with LGBT+ topics would use Coming-Out for (A) due to English media's influence and people unfamiliar with it would generally use Outing for (A) and (B) but would be very likely - at least in my eyes - to confuse both terms if they would've heard both and would treat them as synonyms so that they'd also use Coming-Out for (B) by saying "seit seinem Coming-Out durch X". But both parties would definitely use a verbal construction in speech because it just sounds better.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Vlürch » Tue 13 Feb 2018, 21:17

Pabappa wrote:
Fri 09 Feb 2018, 17:22
Shemtov wrote:
Fri 09 Feb 2018, 16:52
Orthographically similar:
:eng: N*gger; Niger.
that's a good one.....
It fooled me for a long time because it seems obvious and there are a cluster of other nations named after the dark skin of their inhabitants... see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_the_blacks .
How about this one? The island's etymology actually is Spanish, named so by the Spaniards because of the fact that the natives are dark-skinned. So, upon declaring independence, the island of Negros came to be known as the Republic of Negros. Too bad their independence didn't last. Still, saying "the island of Negros" may not go over too well without clarification before saying its name...

I mean, can you imagine how hard people would flip shit every time they were present at international events? Someone would say "give it up for the President of Negros" and everyone's jaws would drop. A middle-aged white woman would stand up and scream "HOW DARE YOU, THAT'S RACIST!" and all the Americans present would start clapping. The speaker tries to explain that it's not a plural of the English slur but the name of the island and its constituent nation, but nobody would have it, demanding to know who thought it was a good idea to call it that. Eventually, the President of Negros slams his fist down on the desk and shouts "SIIIIILEEEENCE!" and glares at everyone with a look that says "this is the shit I put up with on a daily basis".

...I could go on forever, but the point is that for three years there actually was a country called Republic of Negros.

Oh, and its shape is unquestionably phallic:

Image

EDIT: Apparently, it was mentioned on the page you linked to as well. Oh well, I think my hypothetical example of a world where an independent Negros existed is funny enough to not delete this post...
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov » Wed 14 Feb 2018, 00:53

Vlürch wrote:
Tue 13 Feb 2018, 21:17
Pabappa wrote:
Fri 09 Feb 2018, 17:22
Shemtov wrote:
Fri 09 Feb 2018, 16:52
Orthographically similar:
:eng: N*gger; Niger.
that's a good one.....
It fooled me for a long time because it seems obvious and there are a cluster of other nations named after the dark skin of their inhabitants... see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_the_blacks .
How about this one? The island's etymology actually is Spanish, named so by the Spaniards because of the fact that the natives are dark-skinned. So, upon declaring independence, the island of Negros came to be known as the Republic of Negros. Too bad their independence didn't last. Still, saying "the island of Negros" may not go over too well without clarification before saying its name...

I mean, can you imagine how hard people would flip shit every time they were present at international events? Someone would say "give it up for the President of Negros" and everyone's jaws would drop. A middle-aged white woman would stand up and scream "HOW DARE YOU, THAT'S RACIST!" and all the Americans present would start clapping. The speaker tries to explain that it's not a plural of the English slur but the name of the island and its constituent nation, but nobody would have it, demanding to know who thought it was a good idea to call it that. Eventually, the President of Negros slams his fist down on the desk and shouts "SIIIIILEEEENCE!" and glares at everyone with a look that says "this is the shit I put up with on a daily basis".

...I could go on forever, but the point is that for three years there actually was a country called Republic of Negros.

Oh, and its shape is unquestionably phallic:

Image

EDIT: Apparently, it was mentioned on the page you linked to as well. Oh well, I think my hypothetical example of a world where an independent Negros existed is funny enough to not delete this post...
Wouldn't they use /e/ as the first vowel, instead of the low-mid vowel of English <negros>?
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Pabappa » Wed 14 Feb 2018, 03:20

Negro as a standalone noun has /i/, but it also takes the nativized plual in -es, so it could go either way, or neither way.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Dormouse559 » Wed 14 Feb 2018, 07:01

Vlürch wrote:
Tue 13 Feb 2018, 21:17
I mean, can you imagine how hard people would flip shit every time they were present at international events? Someone would say "give it up for the President of Negros" and everyone's jaws would drop. A middle-aged white woman would stand up and scream "HOW DARE YOU, THAT'S RACIST!" and all the Americans present would start clapping. The speaker tries to explain that it's not a plural of the English slur but the name of the island and its constituent nation, but nobody would have it, demanding to know who thought it was a good idea to call it that. Eventually, the President of Negros slams his fist down on the desk and shouts "SIIIIILEEEENCE!" and glares at everyone with a look that says "this is the shit I put up with on a daily basis".
As you point out somewhat indirectly, "negro" is a term loaded with racial baggage. Names like "Republic of Negros" certainly fall into the "unfortunate coincidences" category, so it makes sense to bring them up. But hypotheticals like the one above are unnecessarily provocative.

Pabappa wrote:
Wed 14 Feb 2018, 03:20
Negro as a standalone noun has /i/, but it also takes the nativized plual in -es, so it could go either way, or neither way.
The spelling of the plural varies, so "Negros" is possible. I couldn't immediately find a pronunciation for the country, but I'd pronounce it /ˈneɪ̯gɹoʊ̯s/ in contrast to the word for black people, /ˈniːgɹoʊ̯z/.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku » Wed 14 Feb 2018, 13:53

ixals wrote:
Sun 11 Feb 2018, 01:03
Imralu wrote:
Sat 10 Feb 2018, 18:48
Thanks for the answers!
ixals wrote:I'd also say that people more familiar with LGBT+ rights would prefer Outing over Coming-Out for (A) because most new ideas, sources and media are English.
Häh? That makes no sense to me. Both of those words are from English and in English, Outing is definitely (B) and Coming-Out is definitely (A).
Aaah, I'm sorry, my mistake. [>_<] I mixed up (A) and (B)! Outing is the standard term for (A) and (B), but people familiar with LGBT+ topics would use Coming-Out for (A) due to English media's influence and people unfamiliar with it would generally use Outing for (A) and (B) but would be very likely - at least in my eyes - to confuse both terms if they would've heard both and would treat them as synonyms so that they'd also use Coming-Out for (B) by saying "seit seinem Coming-Out durch X". But both parties would definitely use a verbal construction in speech because it just sounds better.
ixals, may I ask where in the German language area you live? At least where I live (Swabia), "Outing" and the corresponding verb "sich outen" are very common in colloqial language, even for people familiar with the LGBT community. "Coming-Out" is more high-standard and will be found in printing media.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by sangi39 » Wed 14 Feb 2018, 17:01

Dormouse559 wrote:
Wed 14 Feb 2018, 07:01
Vlürch wrote:
Tue 13 Feb 2018, 21:17
I mean, can you imagine how hard people would flip shit every time they were present at international events? Someone would say "give it up for the President of Negros" and everyone's jaws would drop. A middle-aged white woman would stand up and scream "HOW DARE YOU, THAT'S RACIST!" and all the Americans present would start clapping. The speaker tries to explain that it's not a plural of the English slur but the name of the island and its constituent nation, but nobody would have it, demanding to know who thought it was a good idea to call it that. Eventually, the President of Negros slams his fist down on the desk and shouts "SIIIIILEEEENCE!" and glares at everyone with a look that says "this is the shit I put up with on a daily basis".
As you point out somewhat indirectly, "negro" is a term loaded with racial baggage. Names like "Republic of Negros" certainly fall into the "unfortunate coincidences" category, so it makes sense to bring them up. But hypotheticals like the one above are unnecessarily provocative.
Yeah, pointing out the coincidence is fair enough, but the hypothetical didn't need to be there.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by ixals » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 01:32

Iyionaku wrote:
Wed 14 Feb 2018, 13:53
ixals wrote:
Sun 11 Feb 2018, 01:03
Imralu wrote:
Sat 10 Feb 2018, 18:48
Thanks for the answers!
ixals wrote:I'd also say that people more familiar with LGBT+ rights would prefer Outing over Coming-Out for (A) because most new ideas, sources and media are English.
Häh? That makes no sense to me. Both of those words are from English and in English, Outing is definitely (B) and Coming-Out is definitely (A).
Aaah, I'm sorry, my mistake. [>_<] I mixed up (A) and (B)! Outing is the standard term for (A) and (B), but people familiar with LGBT+ topics would use Coming-Out for (A) due to English media's influence and people unfamiliar with it would generally use Outing for (A) and (B) but would be very likely - at least in my eyes - to confuse both terms if they would've heard both and would treat them as synonyms so that they'd also use Coming-Out for (B) by saying "seit seinem Coming-Out durch X". But both parties would definitely use a verbal construction in speech because it just sounds better.
ixals, may I ask where in the German language area you live? At least where I live (Swabia), "Outing" and the corresponding verb "sich outen" are very common in colloqial language, even for people familiar with the LGBT community. "Coming-Out" is more high-standard and will be found in printing media.
Sure! I live in the south of Lower Saxony. sich outen is the most common used expression of all in colloquial language - I'd say -, but Coming-Out feels more natural to me and my friends also prefer Coming-Out over Outing if they don't use sich outen. My family would probably say Outing though, so it could also be a bit of a generational divide? I don't know of any more people because it's not a topic I'd really talk about with people.
Interestingly enough, I assumed that Outing is more high-standard and more commonly found in media. Google seems to find more articles when looking for Coming-Out, so Coming-Out actually is more common in media, huh. [:$] I also found "Die Zeit" using both in different articles.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Vlürch » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 07:38

sangi39 wrote:
Wed 14 Feb 2018, 17:01
Dormouse559 wrote:
Wed 14 Feb 2018, 07:01
As you point out somewhat indirectly, "negro" is a term loaded with racial baggage. Names like "Republic of Negros" certainly fall into the "unfortunate coincidences" category, so it makes sense to bring them up. But hypotheticals like the one above are unnecessarily provocative.
Yeah, pointing out the coincidence is fair enough, but the hypothetical didn't need to be there.
Why is it that making jokes about how oversensitive white Americans are is always taken to be super serious and somehow offensive towards black people or something, even when the joke is about white Americans? [>_<]

Or is it just that on English-language forums making fun of Americans in general is unacceptable, even in a ridiculous althistory scenario? I honestly don't get it... like, sure, it may be considered "offensive humour" because of stereotypes, but has anyone actually ever been offended by the meme of clapping Americans or overblown white guilt and whatnot except maybe Trump?

~

Oh well, anyway...

:jpn: ビール (bīru) - beer <- Dutch loanword, from bier - beer
Image (bīru) - leech <- cognate with Japanese (hiru) - leech
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Dormouse559 » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 08:13

Vlürch wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 07:38
Why is it that making jokes about how oversensitive white Americans are is always taken to be super serious and somehow offensive towards black people or something, even when the joke is about white Americans? [>_<]
Multiple threads on this forum, some with otherwise useful or intriguing subjects, have exploded over an ill-advised sentence or attempt at humor. Those blow-ups ruin everyone's mood and kill any chance for productive conversation, and we mods aren't interested in seeing that happen any more. Joking about racism, from any angle, is just the sort of thing that might spiral out of control, so I'm asking you to stop, to prevent that from happening.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Vlürch » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:54

Dormouse559 wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 08:13
Vlürch wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 07:38
Why is it that making jokes about how oversensitive white Americans are is always taken to be super serious and somehow offensive towards black people or something, even when the joke is about white Americans? [>_<]
Multiple threads on this forum, some with otherwise useful or intriguing subjects, have exploded over an ill-advised sentence or attempt at humor. Those blow-ups ruin everyone's mood and kill any chance for productive conversation, and we mods aren't interested in seeing that happen any more. Joking about racism, from any angle, is just the sort of thing that might spiral out of control, so I'm asking you to stop, to prevent that from happening.
Oh... I didn't know there had been flame wars here, but flame wars do happen everywhere so it shouldn't be surprising... I should learn to see the line so I wouldn't even have to think about what counts as crossing it, considering this is like the thousandth time I'm told this... but somehow I just suck at grasping and following rules that have a potentially wide grey area. [:x]

Sorry. I'll do my best to not make offensive jokes, and will stop to think before I type shit.

One thing, though, that's not really related at all but that this made me think of because of my current conlang/conculture/conwhatever project that I've already been posting in the conlang section: is it ok to post about conlangs and concultures with fictional history that relates to colonialism and whatnot? Like, I just called the colonisers Standard Average Europeans and they're not even supposed to be based on any real European country, but I suppose it could be offensive to someone...? I mean, others have posted similar stuff too, but maybe I crossed some lines there too that others didn't and I'm too much of an insensitive asshole to realise it...?

~

:fin: kulun - I erode (as in "I get eroded")
:ru-sa: кулун - foal (as in baby horse)

:fin: kustuun - into pissed ___ (eg. juosten kustuun taloon, "into a half-assed house"; literally "into a house that has been pissed into running")
:ru-sa: кустуун - with a duck

:jpn: 一気 (ikki) - one go, attempt, etc.
:ru-sa: икки - two

:jpn: 一気に (ikki ni) - in one go (eg. 一気に食べる (ikki ni taberu), "to eat (all) at once")
:ru-sa: иккини - two to ___ (eg. бииргэ иккини эп "to add two to one")

:tur: kir - dirt
:tur: :kur: Zazaki kir - penis

I always get these mixed up. Every time, I remember the Turkish word for "penis" being the Zazaki word because it's literally one of only two or three Zazaki words I know. Thankfully it's that way around, though, and also thankfully I'm not good enough at Turkish to actually use it with anyone. If I did, that might get weird... but I don't know why either word would even come up in most conversations, so it still wouldn't be too big an issue. It's just something I keep laughing by myself about whenever I remember it. [:P]

:tur: göl - lake
:swe: göl - pool, lagoon

The Swedish one is pronounced with /j/ rather than /g/, though.

:fin: arpa - lot (as in a scratchable ticket you can win stuff by, etc.)
:tur: arpa - barley

These should be pronounced pretty much identically, the only difference being in the exact articulation of the /r/.

EDIT: I'd accidentally typed "with ducks" instead of "with a duck".
Last edited by Vlürch on Sat 17 Feb 2018, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 16:15

Vlürch wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:54
[
Sorry. I'll do my best to not make offensive jokes, and will stop to think before I type shit.
Please, I urge you not to stop to think before you type shit.

I know this is just a typo, but an involutarily funny one.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Vlürch » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 17:36

Iyionaku wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 16:15
Vlürch wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:54
[
Sorry. I'll do my best to not make offensive jokes, and will stop to think before I type shit.
Please, I urge you not to stop to think before you type shit.

I know this is just a typo, but an involutarily funny one.
But it's not a typo. "Stop to think" = "stop to take a break for thinking".

~

:kir: көз - eye
:kaz: көз - eye
Image Karachay-Balkar кёз - eye
:ru-ta: көз - autumn
:crh: köz - eye
:tur: köz - ember
:aze: köz - ember
:uig: كۆز (köz) - eye

Why is there no Karachay-Cherkessia flag icon when there is a Kabardino-Balkaria one? If it's just about no one having made one, well, I made one now if anyone with the power to add it feels like adding it? I also made one for Afghanistan (Image), which looks pretty messy but still recognisable?

EDIT: Does Crimean Tatar really not use the soft sign in Cyrillic for <ö ü>, as in <оь уь>? I thought it did, but Wikipedia suggests otherwise... there are results on Google with that kind of spellings, though, so I guess some people do use them...?
EDIT2: Oh, it's Nogai that has those spellings. Nevermind.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Dormouse559 » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 18:02

Vlürch wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:54
Sorry. I'll do my best to not make offensive jokes, and will stop to think before I type shit.
Thank you.
Vlürch wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:54
One thing, though, that's not really related at all but that this made me think of because of my current conlang/conculture/conwhatever project that I've already been posting in the conlang section: is it ok to post about conlangs and concultures with fictional history that relates to colonialism and whatnot? Like, I just called the colonisers Standard Average Europeans and they're not even supposed to be based on any real European country, but I suppose it could be offensive to someone...? I mean, others have posted similar stuff too, but maybe I crossed some lines there too that others didn't and I'm too much of an insensitive asshole to realise it...?
That doesn't sound like a problem to me. Conworlders regularly create cultures that hold views they don't necessarily agree with. What's important is keeping a clear distinction between the real world and the conworld, as well as the fact that conworlds serve the purpose of the forum.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by alynnidalar » Thu 15 Feb 2018, 19:11

As someone whose conworld definitely incorporates views I disagree with, it can be kind of tricky to walk that line. Obviously you don't want to imply that you support or agree with a view you think is reprehensible! For me, I try to present things I don't agree with in a dispassionate way (or even openly point out that I think it's a bad idea) even if I find the way I've incorporated it into my conworld intriguing, and avoid portraying these things as having positive results.

And, of course, if someone were to tell me that they were offended by what I said/how I said it, I'd take that seriously and consider if I should change the way I write about it in the future.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Imralu » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 01:43

Iyionaku wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 16:15
Vlürch wrote:
Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:54
[
Sorry. I'll do my best to not make offensive jokes, and will stop to think before I type shit.
Please, I urge you not to stop to think before you type shit.
stop thinking = aufhören zu denken
stop to think = innehalten, um zu denken
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku » Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:33

Wow! Did I just fall for a false friend? [:x]

That HAS to be moved to the False Friends and other unf... oh wait...
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Imralu » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 02:26

Iyionaku wrote:
Fri 16 Feb 2018, 10:33
Wow! Did I just fall for a false friend? [:x]

That HAS to be moved to the False Friends and other unf... oh wait...
Yeah, I was thinking that too. Actually, I'd like to see more structural false friends (as opposed to lexical) here like that ... but I can't think of any others right now.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Aszev » Sat 17 Feb 2018, 10:09

A Romance structural false friend, that took quite some time for me to get used to:

In Catalan, you form the preterite by using anar 'to go' + infinitive, which mirrors the future construction found in so many other Romance languages.

CATALAN
va parlar 's/he spoke'

SPANISH
va a hablar 's/he will speak'

FRENCH
il va parler 'he will speak'
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov » Sun 18 Feb 2018, 01:33

sangi39 wrote:
Wed 14 Feb 2018, 17:01


Yeah, pointing out the coincidence is fair enough, but the hypothetical didn't need to be there.
Also, "Negro" isn't as taboo as the N-word. In high school, when reading Huckleberry Finn (I was in a one-on-one "class", as I was thrown out of the "culturally appropriate" High School, and the School District thought as a teenager, dropping me in a class full of people outside of my culture would mess up everybody's learning, so I was put with the one-on-learning center.) the tutor refused to even reference the N-word as the term "N-word", instead dropping it when possible, or replacing it with a PC synonym when Jim's race was important to the plot, while in College English 101, the professor had us read MLK's "I Have a Dream" speech, and he didn't have only the African-American students read the parts where Dr. King used "Negro", even white students read it. Also, in certain historical contexts, it's not taboo at all, so Caucasians can reference the United Negro College Fund or Negro League Baseball. If the latter was ever called "N***** League Baseball", that would not be appropriate to say.
I'm mainly saying this because I have a another False friend, that involves a Racial Slur, and I need to contextualize how offensive it, so I needed to make sure everyone was on the same page I was on with the word "Negro", so I can compare the offensive the word is in relation to it.
:eng: (Yinglish) Shvartzer /ʃvart͡sər/ "Racial slur more offensive then 'Negro', but not as offensive as the N-word" Yiddish /ʃvart͡sər/ :deu: schwarzer "Black (color term)" Note, that the Yiddish can be used to refer to people of African Descent, but among native speakers, is like the English "Black", though I got in an argument with another Wiktionary editor about the fact that the entry for the Yiddish word lists it as "offensive", but he was coming from a heritage-speaker perspective, exposed to the Yinglish, so he said "definitely offensive", but I tried to convince him that it's not for native bilinguals, so the entry should read "possibly offensive", noting the difference between Heritage vs. Native Bilinguals, but that was months ago, and it has not changed. Also, some Orthodox Jews defend the Yinglish use, saying that they are just code-switching, even if in certain contexts it can be a slur, but "so can 'black'". This is a view I highly disagree with, and I want to talk to a Rabbi about making a religious ruling that the Yinglish or code-switched term is forbidden.
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