Non-English Orthography Reform

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
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Xonen
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Xonen » Tue 24 Apr 2018, 23:39

Vlürch wrote:
Sun 22 Apr 2018, 18:21
Xonen wrote:
Sun 22 Apr 2018, 12:27
...
Okay, those are all good points. I guess I've lost sight of how different it is, haha.
Xonen wrote:
Sun 22 Apr 2018, 12:27
In any case, expecting normal people to find learning a whole new alphabet easy is a bit unreasonable, IMO.
I guess that's also true, and it could be that I'm just naturally good at learning writing systems;
Could be... It should also perhaps be noted that it's one thing to learn the symbols in isolation, and quite another to actually learn how to read whole words fluently. The former I don't recall struggling much with in Cyrillic (although I had at least one friend who took like two years of Russian and never did manage to learn to remember what <ж> looks like... [:S] ), but the latter very much yes. It's been over fifteen years since I started Russian and I may still stumble on longer words.

Actually, one thought I've sometimes toyed with would be to create a version of Cyrillic which would maximize mutual intelligibility with Latin, which you could write languages like, say, Karelian in. Maybe I'll post it here some day, but I'd need a few days to refine the idea, and right now I'm facing too many deadlines for that.
Xonen wrote:
Sun 22 Apr 2018, 12:27
And Cyrillic might have some unfortunate connotations of Russification. Again, politics. [:S]
This. Russians don't own the Cyrillic alphabet and people assuming it has a supposed inherent connection to Russian has always confused me.
Well, Russian is by far the most widely spoken language written in it, both in number of speakers and (especially) geographically, and this was even more so when it was the official language of a superpower - which wasn't actually that long ago. Plus, many of the languages written in Cyrillic are only written in Cyrillic because said superpower essentially forced it on them, which is the kind of thing that tends to create unfortunate political connotations, no matter what the linguistic merits of using Cyrillic might be.

That said, I do find it frustrating that people can't see past the politics in matters like this, but not the least bit surprising.


Omzinesý wrote:
Tue 24 Apr 2018, 12:09
Kirja perintöruhtinas Davidin, Abramin pojan sukukunnasta. Abram sai Iisakin, Iisak sai Jaakobin: Jaakob sai Juudan ja hänen veljensä.
Šyndy actually seems to mean 'Christ' for whatever reason; I've seen it in Karelian texts before. The corresponding passage in (the modern translation of) the Finnish Bible seems to be this:
1 Jeesuksen Kristuksen, Daavidin pojan ja Abrahamin pojan, sukuluettelo:

2 Abrahamille syntyi Iisak, Iisakille Jaakob, Jaakobille Juuda ja tämän veljet, 3 Juudalle Peres ja Serah, joiden äiti oli Tamar, Peresille Hesron, Hesronille Ram, 4 Ramille Amminadab, Amminadabille Nahson, Nahsonille Salma, 5 Salmalle Boas,
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Vlürch
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Vlürch » Wed 25 Apr 2018, 18:20

Xonen wrote:
Tue 24 Apr 2018, 23:39
Could be... It should also perhaps be noted that it's one thing to learn the symbols in isolation, and quite another to actually learn how to read whole words fluently. The former I don't recall struggling much with in Cyrillic (although I had at least one friend who took like two years of Russian and never did manage to learn to remember what <ж> looks like... [:S] ), but the latter very much yes. It's been over fifteen years since I started Russian and I may still stumble on longer words.
Yeah, that's definitely true when it comes to Russian and other Slavic languages and whatnot since they have a lot of consonant clusters and stuff, but when it comes to Turkic languages like Kazakh and Kyrgyz, at least for me it's only barely slower than reading text in the Latin alphabet; with time it'll hopefully become just as easy. I may not understand everything, though... in fact, I'll usually have this "AAAH I've looked this word up a thousand times but STILL don't remember what it means..." feeling whenever I read anything in any language other than Finnish or English. [:'(]
Xonen wrote:
Tue 24 Apr 2018, 23:39
Actually, one thought I've sometimes toyed with would be to create a version of Cyrillic which would maximize mutual intelligibility with Latin, which you could write languages like, say, Karelian in. Maybe I'll post it here some day, but I'd need a few days to refine the idea, and right now I'm facing too many deadlines for that.
Sounds interesting.
Xonen wrote:
Tue 24 Apr 2018, 23:39
Well, Russian is by far the most widely spoken language written in it, both in number of speakers and (especially) geographically, and this was even more so when it was the official language of a superpower - which wasn't actually that long ago. Plus, many of the languages written in Cyrillic are only written in Cyrillic because said superpower essentially forced it on them, which is the kind of thing that tends to create unfortunate political connotations, no matter what the linguistic merits of using Cyrillic might be.
Mmh, but still... I guess I'm just too fed up with politics in general to see the point in considering anything except aesthetics/practicality when it comes to writing systems, etc.

Just for fun, Turkish with alchemical and geometric symbols. It looks pretty ugly, but as a general rule spoopy cyphers aren't supposed to look nice... and this would definitely be used as a spoopy cypher, I guess.

/m n/ <🜏 🜍>
/p b t d k g/ <🜘 🜻 🜿 🜵 🜱 🜥>
/t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ <🜾 🝤>
/s z ʃ ʒ/ <🜺 🝐 🝑 🝒>
/f v j ɰ h/ <🜫 🜬 🝔 🜲 🝕>
/r/ <▾>
/l/ <▿>

/ɑ e i ɯ o ø u y/ <△ ▲ ▮ ▯ ◇ ◆ ▽ ▼>

Words are separated by a circle: ◯. The only punctuation mark is 🝯, used as a comma, full stop, etc.

Words like "değil" would be spelled phonemically, eg. 🜵▲🝔▮▿ rather than 🜵▲🜲▮▿. So, when <ğ> is /j/, it's spelled as if it was <y>. Other than that, there'd be a one-to-one correspondence between the actual Turkish alphabet and this one except that all the common misspellings on this Wikipedia list would replace the correct ones just because. For example, <her şey> would be 🝕▲▾🝑▲🝔 rather than 🝕▲▾◯🝑▲🝔.

🜵▼🜍🝔△🜍▯🜍◯▲🜍◯🜿▽🝕🜫◯▮🜍🜺△🜍◯🜥▲▿▮🝔◇▾🝯△🜏△◯△🜺▿▯🜍🜵△◯🜾◇🜱🜿△🜍◯◆▿▼🝯 (Dünyanın en tuhaf insan geliyor, ama aslında çoktan öldü. "The world's strangest person is coming, but in reality he/she has already died.")
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Birdlang » Sat 12 May 2018, 11:40

Sanskrit for fun
/m n ɳ ɲ ŋ/ m n nh/ņ/ƞ nj/ɲ/ń ng/ŋ/ň
/p pʰ b bʱ t tʰ d dʱ ʈ ʈʰ ɖ ɖʱ c cʰ ɟ ɟʱ k kʰ g gʱ/ p ph/ṕ b bh/b́ t th/t́ d dh/d́ ŧ ŧh/ŧ́ đ đh/đ́ c ch/ć y yh/ý k ḱ/kh g ǵ/gh
/f s ʂ ç ɦ/ f s s̵ ċ h
/ʋ l ɽ j/w l r j

/i iː u uː e o ə aː/ i ii/î u uu/û e o a aa/â
/ai au ɻ̩ ɻ̩ː l̩ l̩ː/ ai/ê au/ô ɍ ɍɍ/ɍ̂ ƚ ƚƚ/ƚ̂
/Ṽ Vh/ VN/Vǹ/V̨ Vħ/V̈
Now Indonesian
/m n ŋ ɲ/ m n ņ/ng ñ/ny
/p b t d k g ʔ/ p b t d k g -q
/f (v) s (z) ʃ (x) (ɣ) h/ f v s z sh/š x gh/ġ h
/tʃ dʒ/ ch j
/l r w j/ l r w j
/i u e o ə a/ i u e o ĕ/ë a
Now Spanish
/p b t d k g/ p b t d k g
/f β s x ɣ/ f v s h ǥ
/l r ɾ j/ l ɍ r j
/m n ɲ/ m n ɲ
/ʧ/ c
/a e i o u/ a e i o u
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ
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