Non-English Orthography Reform

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
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Ear of the Sphinx
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » Thu 21 Aug 2014, 16:30

I think myself that ‹x› is the least eye-hurting option.
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Xing
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Xing » Sat 23 Aug 2014, 22:18

Batrachus wrote:Why does Piraha use x for [ʔ]? It rips my eyes. I would use q instead.
Most Pirahãs don't use any letters at all for any sound.
Ear of the Sphinx wrote:I think myself that ‹x› is the least eye-hurting option.
[+1]

However, since virtually all instances of written Pirahã are sample sentences by and for linguists or language geeks, I suggest one could as well use ʔ, or an apostrophe. Should Pirahã evolve into a real written language, things would be much different from the present situation.
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Birdlang » Fri 02 Jan 2015, 10:27

Spanish
/a e i o u/ a e i o u
/p t tS k b d g/ p t č q b d g
/f B T D s X/ f w þ ð s h
/r l j M\ w/ r l j ÿ w
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Squall
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Squall » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 15:41

French
/a~ɑ ɑ̃ ə/ <a ã e>
/ɛ œ ɛ̃~œ̃ ɔ ɔ̃/ <è ë ẽ o õ>
/e ø o/ <é ê ó>
/i y u/ <i ï u>
/j ɥ w/ <i ï u>

/m n ɲ/ <m n ñ>
/p t k b d g/ <p t c b d g>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ/ <f v s z x j>
/l ʁ/ <l h>

Irish
/iː ɪ uː ʊ eː ɛ oː ɔ a aː ə/ <î i û u ê e ô o a â y>

/pˠ pʲ t̪ˠ tʲ c k/ <p pj t tj kj k>
/bˠ bʲ d̪ˠ dʲ ɟ ɡ/ <b bj d dj gj g>
/fˠ fʲ sˠ ʃ ç x/ <f fj s sj cj c>
/w vʲ j ɣ h/ <w v j ç h>
/mˠ mʲ n̪ˠ nʲ ɲ ŋ/ <m mj n nj ñ ng>
/ɾˠ ɾʲ l̪ˠ lʲ/ <r rj l lj>

The Roman alphabet is terrible for Irish consonants.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Birdlang » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 20:59

You could have worse, Sicilicus for long vowels and Latin Extended D for slender consonants, like q with stroke diagonally for slender g. And for the schwa, the open e. And n with right hook for J and eng for N.
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Nannalu
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Nannalu » Fri 09 Jan 2015, 19:03

Somali (because that Latin alphabet is vile)
/b t d ʤ ɖ k g q ʔ/ <b t d j ḍ k g q ʾ>
/f s ʃ x ħ ʕ h/ <f s š ḫ ḥ ʿ h>
/m n r l j w/ <m n r l y w>

/i e a o u/ <i e a o u>
/i: e: a: o: u:/ <ī ē ā ō ū>

Ādanaha ḍammāntīs wuḥū ḍašā isagō ḥor ah kana siman ḥagga šarafta iyo ḥuqūqada Waḥā Alle (llāh) sīyay aqōn iyo waʿyi, wāna in qof la arkā qofka kale ula ḍaqmā si walāltinimo ah.
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Esmelthien
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Esmelthien » Sat 10 Jan 2015, 03:53

Dutch:
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k g>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ χ ɦ/ <f v s z sj zj ch h>
/ʋ l j ʀ/ <w l j r>

/i y ɪ u/ <i/ie u/uu iCC ou>
/eɪ̯ øʏ̯ oʊ̯/ <e/ee eu o/oo>
/ɛ ɵ ə ɔ/ <eCC uCC y oCC>
/a ɑ/ <a/aa aCC>

/ɛɪ̯ ɜy̯ ɑʊ̯/ <ei au ao>
/iʊ̯ yʊ̯ uɪ̯/ <iew uuw ouj>
/eːʊ̯ oːɪ̯ aːɪ̯/ <eew ooj aaj>

Er was chistyryn een appyltaart, en vandaach is hei er niet meer. Om heel eerlyk ty zein vint ik dat echt niet leuk. Het is chwoon chymeen om imant zoiets aan ty doun. Ik wildy di appyltaart oppetyn, en nu kan yt niet meer! In idyr chyval hep ik noch steets mein frisdrank. Of hep jy di ook chyjat? Als jy di ook hept chyjat wort ik echt pissych.
ye
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Birdlang » Sat 10 Jan 2015, 21:38

Mandarin Chinese
/p t k/ b d g
/ts t`s` ts\/ c ƈ ȼ
/f s s` s\ x/ f s ȿ ȝ h
/l r\` j w/ l r j w
/m n -N/ m n -ƞ
/i y E/ i y e
/@/ ơ
/u o A/ u o a
Vi Vj
jV jV
aspiration is written as a following ƛ
Tones
High is ƨ, Falling is ȥ Rising is Cuatrillo, Rising Falling is ǃ
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Nortaneous
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Nortaneous » Sun 11 Jan 2015, 20:18

sure let's write Chinese as Zhuang, why not

Raenj raenj caengz erj zwq youj, zaiq zunz yenj haej ziuenj liq shangq yiz luq pingj dengx. Taz men fuq youj lix singq haej liangj sinz, bingq yingz yix siungz diq guanz siq dae zingz shaenj huq siangz duiq daiq.

or as Hmong

Zens zens seeb ezs zyv yous, txaiv txunb yans hes chuans liv saav yis luv phiis teej. Thas men fuv youv lij xiiv hes liaas xinb, piiv yiib yij xyoob tiv kuanb xiv te ciib sens huv xyaab duiv daiv.
Zythros Jubi
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Zythros Jubi » Thu 15 Jan 2015, 08:51

/p pʰ m f/
/t tʰ n l/
/ts tsʰ s/
/tɕ tɕʰ ɕ/
/tʂ tʂʰ ʂ ɻ/
/k kʰ x/
/j w ɥ ʔ/

p ph m f
t th n l
ts tsh s
tc tch c
tr trh sr r
k kh h
i o u '

/a aj aw an aŋ/
/ja jaw jan jaŋ/
/wa waj wan waŋ/
/ɥan/
/ə əj əw ən əŋ/
/jə jəw jən jəŋ/
/wə wəj wən wəŋ/
/ɥə ɥən ɥəŋ/
/ɨ wɨ ɥɨ/


a ai ao an ah (yin ping)
aa aai aao aan aah (yang ping)
aat aac aar aas aak (shang)
at ac ar as ak (qu)


ia iao ian iah
oa oai oan oah
uan
e ei eo en eh
y (yang ping as default) [yyt yt]
ie ieo ien ieh
oe oei oen oeh
ue uen ueh
i o u

reenreen sreh'y tst'ieeo, tsaai tsoen'iaan hee tchuaanlit srak iluk phiihteek. thamen fut'ieer liitcik he liaahcin pik ih iit coehtit koancit t tcihsreen ciahhot toectac.
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Birdlang » Sun 14 Jun 2015, 22:14

Hawaiian would be written in the IPA, but with the cased glottal stop and grave accent for long vowels.
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druneragarsh
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by druneragarsh » Mon 12 Oct 2015, 18:21

Finnish Orthography Reform!
That is: the ortography exactly as it is today, except for the following changes:
<nk> -> <ŋk>
<ng> -> <ŋŋ>

And then all would be logical.
drúne, rá gárš
drun-VOC I.ERG read

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Refer to me with any sex-neutral (or feminine) 3s pronoun, either from English (no singular they please, zie etc are okay) or from one of your conlangs!
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GrandPiano
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by GrandPiano » Mon 12 Oct 2015, 19:44

Spanish reform with the Cyrillic alphabet:

/p t t͡ʃ k/ <п т ч к>
/b d g/ <б д г>
/f s θ ʝ x/ <ф с з ј х>
/m n ɲ/ <м н њ>
/l ɾ r/ <л р рр>

/a e i o u/ <а э и о у>

/ˈV/ <V́> (same rules as the current Spanish orthography)

¡Ола! ¿Ко́мо эста́с?
Эстој биэн, гразиас, ¿и ту́?
Эстој ма́с о мэнос.
¿Дэ дондэ эрэс?
Сој дэ Эспања, ¿и ту́?
Сој дэ Мэ́хико.
Last edited by GrandPiano on Fri 16 Oct 2015, 21:59, edited 2 times in total.
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:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
opipik
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by opipik » Mon 12 Oct 2015, 20:13

Kâte, because why not.

/p b ᵐb t d ⁿd ʦ~ʣ ⁿʣ k ɡ ᵑɡ k͡p ɡ͡b ᵑᵐɡ͡b ʔ/ <p b mb t d nd dz ndz k g ngg kp gb mgb c>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/f v s h/ <f v s h>
/ɾ j/ <r y>

/i e a u o ɔ/ <i e a u ô o>

Eme nôni inguc yaha fungnaônecteang viac fua varevec irec aimung mu ikising ehuc manaku mana-forero Teofilo ngicbômbông-nane gôre ninic kponinic kporengkekôpac.
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Dormouse559
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 29 Nov 2015, 21:42

I thought I'd try creating a French orthography reform that kept some of that élégance, but also regularized things a bit. It's only supposed to be applicable to a somewhat formal France French, since that's the variety I understand best. And this is purely a thought experiment; I don't pretend it's ideal or that it should replace the current orthography.

Here are some basic sound-grapheme correspondences

/a ɑ ɑ̃ ə/ <a â aN~eN e>
/ɛ œ ɛ̃ œ̃ ɔ ɔ̃/ <è~ai (o)eu iN~èN uN o oN>
/e ø o/ <é (o)eu ô~au>
/i y u/ <i u ou>
/j ɥ w/ <i u ou>
/wa/ <oi~oua>

/m n ɲ/ <m n gn>
/p t k b d g/ <p t c~qu~k b d g~gu>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ/ <f v s~ss~ç~c z~s ch j~g>
/l ʁ/ <l r>
/ks~gz/ <x>

And here are a bunch of notes:
Spoiler:
<e> with no diacritic is pronounced /ə/. It is elided with the usual rules; basically, if it is between two or fewer consonants, it elides (but is still written). /ɛ/ and /e/ are always indicated explicitly with an accented <e> or a digraph as appropriate.

There are certain consonant letters which are silent word-finally or followed by word-final <s>. These are <t d v z n>. <s> is also silent word-finally, but <ss> behaves differently. These consonants are "emergent", in that they are pronounced in liaison or appear in declension or derivation. In liaison, all the consonants listed above follow the listed sound correspondences. <s> however is pronounced /z/. All other consonants are pronounced word-finally or before a word-final <s>.

/ʁ/ is also irregular. It is pronounced word-finally unless preceded by <é>, when it is silent until brought to the surface by liaison, declension or derivation. So words like "pour", "agir" and "fièr" are pronounced with final /ʁ/. It is silent in words like "boulangér" and "aimér".

Etymological doubled consonants replaced with single counterparts (<ll> -> <l>). However, an abovementioned consonant letter is doubled if it is meant to be pronounced word-finally, but is not followed by a silent <e>. An example is <sett> (currently <sept> /sɛt/).

All the nasal-vowel sequences are pronounced as such before a consonant letter or word-finally. Before a vowel, sequences of <a e i o u> + nasal are /aN (ə)N iN ɔN yN/.

The alternations in <c> and <g> remain. <qu> for /k/ is replaced with <c>. For instance, "quatre" /katʁ/ becomes "catre". The spelling of "manquér" /mɑ̃ke/ will alternate with conjugation. The present first-person plural is spelled "mancon" /mɑ̃kɔ̃/.

The representations of /s/ and /z/ are largely taken from the current orthography, but <sc> and <t> are changed to <c> when they represent /s/. science -> cience, démocratie -> démocracie

<x> only represents /ks/ or /gz/. When it represents (normal or emergent) /z/ it is replaced by <z> (amoureux -> amoureuz). When it represents /s/, it is replaced by <ss> (soixante -> soissante). When it represents pluralization, it is replaced by <s> (chevaux > chevaus). Speaking of "amoureux", feminine words ending in /z/ are respelled with "-ze". The feminine of "amoureuz" is "amoureuze"; the feminine of "penseur" is "penseuze".

Regular plural is always represented by adding silent <s> to the end of a word. This means you get things like "amoureuzs" and "touts" instead of "amoureux" and "tous". Irregular plurals are written phonetically with a silent <s> added at the end. "égal" pluralizes to "égaus".

Feminine declensions are formed regularly by adding a silent <e> to the end of the masculine form. Irregular feminine forms are spelled phonetically with a silent <e> at the end.

The representation of word-final /ɛ̃/ is based on the pronunciation of the feminine or liaison form. If the alternation is /ɛ̃/ -> /ɛn/, write <èn> (italien/italienne -> italièn/italiène). If it's /ɛ̃/ -> /in/, write <in> (divin/divine).

/œ~ø/ is represented as <eu>, unless it is preceded by <c> or <g>, in which case it is spelled <oeu>. A little fanciful. That means "coeur" is spelled the same. "Accueil" becomes "acoeui". That's a lot of vowels, but you'll never encounter <oeu> unless it means /œ~ø/.

For representing /wa/, the choice is largely based on the current orthography.

<gn> can represent either /ɲ/ or /gn/, but that usually isn't a problem. /ɲ/ is much more common.

All Greek digraphs are respelled according to the rules above. That means <ph th rh> become <f t r>, and <ch> becomes <c~qu> or <ch> based on its pronunciation.

<y> is replaced - in native words and Graeco-Roman borrowings - with <i> (or <ii> in the case of <oy>).

<h> is only used word initially to indicate h aspiré, which prevents liaison and contraction with a word beginning with a vowel.

Non-naturalized foreign borrowings are not respelled. Graeco-Roman loans are a gray area. They get some light respelling as indicated above. The rules dictate that final /s/ be spelled <ss>, which I feel is reasonable here (i.e. campus -> campuss). I also think <-um> should be spelled <-omm> (maximum > maximomm).
Now for some examples:

UDHR:
Current
Déclaration universelle des droits de l'homme
Tous les êtres humains naissent libres et égaux en dignité et en droits. Ils sont doués de raison et de conscience et doivent agir les uns envers les autres dans un esprit de fraternité.

/deklarasjɔ̃ ynivɛʁsɛl de dʁwa d lɔm/
/tu le‿zɛtʁ ymɛ̃ nɛs libʁ e ego ɑ̃ diɲite e ɑ̃ dʁwa | il sɔ̃ dwe d ʁɛzɔ̃ e d kɔ̃sjɑ̃s e dwav aʒiʁ le‿zœ̃ ɑ̃vɛʁ le‿zotʁ dɑ̃‿zœ̃‿nɛspʁi də fʁatɛʁnite/

Reformed
Déclaracion univèrsèle dés drois de l'ome
Touts lés ètres umèns naisse libres é égaus en dignité é en drois. Ils sont doués de raison é de concience é doive agir lés uns envèr lés autres danz un èspri de fratèrnité.


The numbers are tricky because they have a lot of irregularities. Here are numbers 1-10 with their contextual respellings.

Current
un (f: une) /œ̃/ /yn/
deux /dø/
trois /tʁwa/
quatre /katʁ/
cinq /sɛ̃k sɛ̃/
six /sis si/
sept /sɛt/
huit /ɥit ɥi/
neuf /nœf nœv/
dix /dis di/

Reformed
un (f: une/hune)
deuz
troiz
catre
cinc/cin
siss/siz
sètt
huitt/hui/uitt
neuf/neuv
diss/diz
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GrandPiano
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 03 Dec 2015, 05:48

Just for fun, how about a Latin orthography for Mandarin based on Pinyin but with some changes to make the consonants less weird and the vowels more regular (but in some cases slightly more weird):

/p pʰ m f/ <b p m f>
/t tʰ n l/ <d t n l>
/k kʰ x/ <g k h>
/t͡ɕ t͡ɕʰ ɕ/ <z c s>
/ʈ͡ʂ ʈ͡ʂʰ ʂ ɻ/ <j ch sh r>
/t͡s t͡sʰ s/ <z c s>

/a aɪ̯ ɑʊ̯ an ɑŋ/ <a ay aw an ang>
/ja jɑʊ̯ jɛn jɑŋ/ <ya yaw yan yang>
/wa waɪ̯ wan wɑŋ/ <wa way wan wang>
/ɥɛn/ <ÿan>
/ɤ eɪ̯ ɤʊ̯ ən ɤŋ/ <e ey ew en eng>
/jɛ jɤʊ̯ in iŋ/ <ye yew yen yeng>
/wɔ weɪ̯ wən wɤŋ~ʊŋ/ <we wey wen weng>
/ɥœ̜ yn jʊŋ/ <ÿe ÿen ÿeng>
/i u y z̩~ʐ̩/ <i u ü o>

Tone marks are the same as Pinyin.

I'll demonstrate with the poem 静夜思 (Jīng Yè Sī) by 李白 (Lǐ Bái):

Hanzi:

静夜思

李白

床前明月光
疑是地上霜
举头望明月
低头思故乡

Pinyin:

Jīng Yè Sī

Lǐ Bái

Chuáng qián míngyuè guāng
Yí shì dì shàng shuāng
Jǔ tóu wàng míngyuè
Dī tóu sī gùxiāng

New orthography:

Zīng Yè Sō

Lǐ Báy

Chwáng cyán míngÿè gwāng
Í shò dì shàng shwāng
Zǚ téw wàng míngÿè
Dī téw sō gùsyāng
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Qxentio
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Qxentio » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 21:42

I thought I'd just post my attempt to fix German orthography in here, even though this isn't really an orthography, but more of a recommendation on how to use existing signs to write down spoken German.
Vowels first:

A, a [a]
Ā, ā [aː]
E, e [ɛ], [ə]
Ē, ē [eː]
I, i [ɪ]
Ī, ī [iː]
O, o [ɔ]
Ō, ō [oː]
Ø, ø[2] [œ]
Ø̄, ø̄[2] [øː]
U, u [ʊ]
Ū, ū [uː]
Y, y[3] [ʏ]
Ȳ, ȳ[3] [yː]
Ǣ, ǣ [ɛː] (if you really think it exists)
Æ, æ [ɐ] (You can still spell it "er", but that's a tad ambiguous)

B, b
C, c [t͡s] (or you write it as ts)
D, d [d]
F, f [f]
G, g [g]
H, h [h]
J, j [j]
K, k [k]
L, l [l]
M, m [m]
N, n [n]
Ŋ, ŋ[6] [ŋ]
P, p [p]
R, r [r], [ʀ], [ʁ]
S, s
Ʃ, ʃ[4] [ʃ]
T, t [t]
V, v [v]
W, w[1] [w]
X, x [ç], [x], [χ]
Z, z [z]
Ʒ, ʒ[1][5] [ʒ]

[1]: Only foreign words, loanwords and personal names
[2]: alternatively: Ö, ö/Ő, ő
[3]: alternatively: Ü, ü/Ű, ű
[4]: alternatively: Š, š
[5]: alternatively: Ž, ž
[6]: alternatively: Ň, ň

I've been writing like this on paper ever since I started studying two years ago. It's so easy and intuitive, and it allows for a transition between more highbrow and more colloquial speech however you please. What do you people think?
Meine Muttersprache ist Deutsch. My second language is English. Olim discēbam Latinam. Sú ginévam Jagárhvejak. Opiskelen Suomea. Un ek kür en lütten Tick Platt.
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Creyeditor
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Creyeditor » Mon 07 Dec 2015, 22:06

Qxentio wrote:I thought I'd just post my attempt to fix German orthography in here, even though this isn't really an orthography, but more of a recommendation on how to use existing signs to write down spoken German.
Vowels first:

A, a [a]
Ā, ā [aː]
E, e [ɛ], [ə]
Ē, ē [eː]
I, i [ɪ]
Ī, ī [iː]
O, o [ɔ]
Ō, ō [oː]
Ø, ø[2] [œ]
Ø̄, ø̄[2] [øː]
U, u [ʊ]
Ū, ū [uː]
Y, y[3] [ʏ]
Ȳ, ȳ[3] [yː]
Ǣ, ǣ [ɛː] (if you really think it exists)
Æ, æ [ɐ] (You can still spell it "er", but that's a tad ambiguous)

B, b
C, c [t͡s] (or you write it as ts)
D, d [d]
F, f [f]
G, g [g]
H, h [h]
J, j [j]
K, k [k]
L, l [l]
M, m [m]
N, n [n]
Ŋ, ŋ[6] [ŋ]
P, p [p]
R, r [r], [ʀ], [ʁ]
S, s
Ʃ, ʃ[4] [ʃ]
T, t [t]
V, v [v]
W, w[1] [w]
X, x [ç], [x], [χ]
Z, z [z]
Ʒ, ʒ[1][5] [ʒ]

[1]: Only foreign words, loanwords and personal names
[2]: alternatively: Ö, ö/Ő, ő
[3]: alternatively: Ü, ü/Ű, ű
[4]: alternatively: Š, š
[5]: alternatively: Ž, ž
[6]: alternatively: Ň, ň

I've been writing like this on paper ever since I started studying two years ago. It's so easy and intuitive, and it allows for a transition between more highbrow and more colloquial speech however you please. What do you people think?


Looks good, except for E, e [ɛ], [ə] and Æ, æ [ɐ]. Germans think of <ä>, when they read <æ>, so you may want to change that. Also, it is very important to distinguish [ɛ] and [ə], there are some minimal pairs, IIRC. I have really no suggestions how to correct these things, but they seem really important to me.
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Qxentio
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Qxentio » Wed 09 Dec 2015, 01:14

Creyeditor wrote:Looks good, except for E, e [ɛ], [ə] and Æ, æ [ɐ]. Germans think of <ä>, when they read <æ>, so you may want to change that. Also, it is very important to distinguish [ɛ] and [ə], there are some minimal pairs, IIRC. I have really no suggestions how to correct these things, but they seem really important to me.
There are no minimal pairs between [ɛ] and [ə] that I'm aware of, but if you have any, please educate me. I always thought they are in complementray distribution: [ɛ] in stressed and [ə] in unstressed syllables.
The whole Æ thing actually just came to my mind as I wrote that post, and I thought it was cool to save an extra letter. I don't know what would be best to represent [ɐ], except maybe ɐ itself. The capital version would look like an universal quantifier: ∀

I originally had the idea to write [ɛː] as é, which could get confused with ē for [eː] though.
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Re: Non-English Orthography Reform

Post by Sumelic » Wed 09 Dec 2015, 02:01

Vowels:

How is "er" [ɐ] ambiguous? I thought German [ɐ] never contrasted with /əʁ/.

If you want a different way to represent [ɐ], it makes sense to use just <a> (are there any significant minimal pairs with [a]?) or <â> or <ă>.

Also, I don't see the diphthongs listed.

Consonants:
Is there any theoretical reason why you distinguish /t͡s/ from /t/+/s/, but not /p͡f/ from /p/ + /f/?

Also, there is the well-known case of words like Frauchen where the use of the ich-Laut rather than the ach-Laut cannot be explained completely by the phonetic environment.

I also wonder if the glottal stop should be included.
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