False cognates

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GrandPiano
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Mon 27 Nov 2017, 04:39

Creyeditor wrote:
Sun 26 Nov 2017, 01:46
Mee: dookumita discovered
English: to document
The last part of the Mee word could be considered a false cognate of :jpn: 見た mita "saw".

In fact, the whole word looks very similar to :jpn: 遠く見た tooku mita "saw far away".
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by Alessio » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 18:38

I was thinking that something like "he is" would be rendered as он /on/ in :rus: Russian, which means just "he" and implies "is", whereas in :fin: Finnish you could render it as on, which means just "is" and implies "he/she/it" (and is of course unrelated to он). Still, at least in the spoken language, Suomea Suomeksi says that dropping pronouns is not very common, so most people would go with hän on instead.
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

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Re: False cognates

Post by Vlürch » Sun 31 Dec 2017, 17:22

Alessio wrote:
Mon 25 Dec 2017, 18:38
I was thinking that something like "he is" would be rendered as он /on/ in :rus: Russian, which means just "he" and implies "is", whereas in :fin: Finnish you could render it as on, which means just "is" and implies "he/she/it" (and is of course unrelated to он). Still, at least in the spoken language, Suomea Suomeksi says that dropping pronouns is not very common, so most people would go with hän on instead.
Dropping first- and second-person pronouns is really common. Dropping third-person pronouns is rarer but does still happen, and it would be understood perfectly as long as the subject of the sentence didn't change. If it did, that could get confusing, although even then people would almost certainly understand since it would be obvious that you're not a native speaker and could piece together that you were an overzealous pronoun-dropper. [:P]

Personally, I feel like the "rule" that third-person pronouns shouldn't be dropped feels more like a guide to kids or learners than an actual grammatical rule or even a descriptive fact. I mean, there are circumstances where it would sound stranger to use the pronoun than it would to drop it. For example, when answering questions. If someone asks "onko Trump Amerikan presidentti?" (is Trump the president of America?), you wouldn't say "hän on" (he is). You'd just say "on" (is). You might say "on hän" (he is (literally "is he")) if the person asking the question was doubtful of Trump being the president of America rather than simply asking a yes-no question or something like that. Informally, of course, you'd use "se" (it) instead of "hän" (he/she).

But yeah, as a general rule, you can drop first- and second- but not third-person pronouns.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Omzinesý » Mon 01 Jan 2018, 01:40

Vlürch wrote:
Sun 31 Dec 2017, 17:22
Alessio wrote:
Mon 25 Dec 2017, 18:38
I was thinking that something like "he is" would be rendered as он /on/ in :rus: Russian, which means just "he" and implies "is", whereas in :fin: Finnish you could render it as on, which means just "is" and implies "he/she/it" (and is of course unrelated to он). Still, at least in the spoken language, Suomea Suomeksi says that dropping pronouns is not very common, so most people would go with hän on instead.
Dropping first- and second-person pronouns is really common. Dropping third-person pronouns is rarer but does still happen, and it would be understood perfectly as long as the subject of the sentence didn't change. If it did, that could get confusing, although even then people would almost certainly understand since it would be obvious that you're not a native speaker and could piece together that you were an overzealous pronoun-dropper. [:P]

Personally, I feel like the "rule" that third-person pronouns shouldn't be dropped feels more like a guide to kids or learners than an actual grammatical rule or even a descriptive fact. I mean, there are circumstances where it would sound stranger to use the pronoun than it would to drop it. For example, when answering questions. If someone asks "onko Trump Amerikan presidentti?" (is Trump the president of America?), you wouldn't say "hän on" (he is). You'd just say "on" (is). You might say "on hän" (he is (literally "is he")) if the person asking the question was doubtful of Trump being the president of America rather than simply asking a yes-no question or something like that. Informally, of course, you'd use "se" (it) instead of "hän" (he/she).

But yeah, as a general rule, you can drop first- and second- but not third-person pronouns.
I guess that's a normative rule of Standard Finnish, kirjakieli. In spoken language dropping 1st and 2nd person pronouns isn't that usual, even when they are not emphasised. Short pronouns mä sä me te appear quite frequently. On the other hand 3rd person pronouns can be dropped more frequently than in kirjakieli, if the topic is fixed. Nobody has still found put the rules of pronoun usage in spoken Finnish. The arbitrary norms of kirjakieli make the case even trickier when rules are borrowed between registers. The thing is however somehow fixing the discourse topic and maintaining coherence in the text.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Vlürch » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 17:38

Omzinesý wrote:
Mon 01 Jan 2018, 01:40
I guess that's a normative rule of Standard Finnish, kirjakieli. In spoken language dropping 1st and 2nd person pronouns isn't that usual, even when they are not emphasised. Short pronouns mä sä me te appear quite frequently. On the other hand 3rd person pronouns can be dropped more frequently than in kirjakieli, if the topic is fixed. Nobody has still found put the rules of pronoun usage in spoken Finnish. The arbitrary norms of kirjakieli make the case even trickier when rules are borrowed between registers. The thing is however somehow fixing the discourse topic and maintaining coherence in the text.
Well, yeah, but the point should be that since in puhekieli it makes no difference at all whether the first- and second-person pronouns are dropped or not even in the subtle way it does in kirjakieli, it won't hurt anyone to drop them (or not drop them). You're right, though, and I probably should've mentioned that as well. I think the choice of whether a pronoun is dropped happens on a case-by-case basis, the brain somehow deciding which is better in a split second or something...
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Re: False cognates

Post by Parlox » Thu 04 Jan 2018, 20:31

I've found that my conlang, Lozkazmat, sort of has a false cognate with English.

:con: Lozkazmat, Jeur'[jəɹ] "You".
:eng: English, You, your.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Aszev » Sun 07 Jan 2018, 14:15

Ancient Greek κάρμα 'cream skimmed off' (also 'wool shorn off')
~
Finnish kerma 'cream'
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Imralu » Mon 08 Jan 2018, 01:28

:tan: Swahili simu "telephone", "phone call" is not from SIM but from Persian سیم‏ (sim, "coins", "wire"). In Comorian, a language closely related to Swahili, it means "telegram". In Persian, it's ultimately a borrowing from Ancient Greek and the modern word ασήμι asími "silver" is cognate with it.
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Re: False cognates

Post by sangi39 » Mon 08 Jan 2018, 01:48

Imralu wrote:
Mon 08 Jan 2018, 01:28
:tan: Swahili simu "telephone", "phone call" is not from SIM but from Persian سیم‏ (sim, "coins", "wire"). In Comorian, a language closely related to Swahili, it means "telegram". In Persian, it's ultimately a borrowing from Ancient Greek and the modern word ασήμι asími "silver" is cognate with it.
On a similar note, Icelandic sími, for "telephone", comes from an old word for "rope", IIRC, and I don't think it's cognate to the Ancient Greek word.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Creyeditor » Mon 08 Jan 2018, 13:42

Adding to that, German has Strippe meaning 'chord' for 'telephon'.
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Re: False cognates

Post by CMunk » Thu 25 Jan 2018, 10:40

I don't know if this one has been mentioned, but:

:lat: iūxtā "near", "next to" ~ :gbr: next

They seem similar, mostly because of the Vxt pattern in the middle. But iūxtā is from PIE *(H)yewg-s with a possible relation to *yewg- "yoke". On the other hand, next is from Proto-Germanic *nēhwist (from *nēhwaz "nigh" + *-istaz "-est"), which in turn comes from PIE *h₂neḱ- "to reach".
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Re: False cognates

Post by Pabappa » Thu 25 Jan 2018, 17:52

:irl: domhain "world" != :gbr: "domain" or any of its cognates.


:irl: fuar "cold" != :es: "frio" or any if it's cognates.
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Sun 28 Jan 2018, 22:09

:jpn: Classical Japanese す su “to do” - :eng: do
:jpn: Classical Japanese く ku “to come” - :eng: come
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 08 Feb 2018, 01:41

:lat: lacus “lake; pond; basin” - :eng: lake
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 08 Feb 2018, 01:50

To me German Weide willow and English willow, look like they should be related, but I guess they aren't? *d>l is so frequent in Papua but it seems to be non-existant in Europe, IINM.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » Thu 08 Feb 2018, 02:04

Aszev wrote:
Sun 07 Jan 2018, 14:15
Ancient Greek κάρμα 'cream skimmed off' (also 'wool shorn off')
~
Finnish kerma 'cream'
I would add :eng: Cream to that, as it goes back to PIE *(s)krama- while κάρμα goes to *(s)ker, though it is possible that there was a (pre?)-PIE root *(s)kr that took null-grade and an affix *ama on one hand and e-grade on the other. Is it possible the :fin: goes back to a PU contact with a IE lang (maybe Iranian?)?
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 08 Feb 2018, 05:31

Creyeditor wrote:
Thu 08 Feb 2018, 01:50
To me German Weide willow and English willow, look like they should be related, but I guess they aren't? *d>l is so frequent in Papua but it seems to be non-existant in Europe, IINM.
I don’t know if any European languages have had it as a consistent sound change, but Latin had d > l as an irregular change for at least one word: *dingua > lingua “tongue”. (Though this apparently occurred due to influence from lingere “to lick”)
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Thu 08 Feb 2018, 10:05

Parlox wrote:
Thu 04 Jan 2018, 20:31
I've found that my conlang, Lozkazmat, sort of has a false cognate with English.

:con: Lozkazmat, Jeur'[jəɹ] "You".
:eng: English, You, your.
Since it's a conlang, and you know English, how can you be sure the word wasn't coined as a direct borrowing or somesuch?
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Re: False cognates

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 08 Feb 2018, 13:12

GrandPiano wrote:
Thu 08 Feb 2018, 05:31
Creyeditor wrote:
Thu 08 Feb 2018, 01:50
To me German Weide willow and English willow, look like they should be related, but I guess they aren't? *d>l is so frequent in Papua but it seems to be non-existant in Europe, IINM.
I don’t know if any European languages have had it as a consistent sound change, but Latin had d > l as an irregular change for at least one word: *dingua > lingua “tongue”. (Though this apparently occurred due to influence from lingere “to lick”)
Interesting [:)]
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Re: False cognates

Post by Parlox » Thu 08 Feb 2018, 22:08

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Thu 08 Feb 2018, 10:05
Parlox wrote:
Thu 04 Jan 2018, 20:31
I've found that my conlang, Lozkazmat, sort of has a false cognate with English.

:con: Lozkazmat, Jeur'[jəɹ] "You".
:eng: English, You, your.
Since it's a conlang, and you know English, how can you be sure the word wasn't coined as a direct borrowing or somesuch?
I make it a point to not make any of my conlangs too similar to English, and none of my conlangs are spoken on an alternate earth. So it wouldn't be a direct borrowing.
  • :con: Bàsupan, (Coming soon)
  • :con: Stellendor
  • :con: Chavajau,
  • :con: Oddúhath Claire,
  • :con: Molvanian,
  • :con: Some temporary toylangs such as Rh'ae, Brythónnyc Claire, and Koe'ez.
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