False cognates

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clawgrip
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Re: False cognates

Post by clawgrip » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 12:17

Alessio wrote:Ha, just found another one.

:jpn: 取る toru - to take
:ita: (Emilian local language) tōr - to take

Note that the <u> in <toru> is nearly silent.
The /u/ in 取る toru is always voiced and clearly pronounced.
All4Ɇn wrote::jpn: 可愛いkawaii- cute
:jpn: 可愛ka ai- passable love or :chn: 可愛kě'ài- lovable
可愛い kawaii is etymologically Chinese, so this is a true cognate, not a false one.


Looks like I was too slow on the 攝 thing. It is indeed a simplified in Japanese as 摂. Three identical elements sometimes get simplified as that X thing plus one copy (cf. 澁 → 渋, 壘 → 塁).
Last edited by clawgrip on Thu 20 Apr 2017, 14:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Lao Kou » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 13:18

clawgrip wrote:Looks like I was too slow on the 攝 thing. It is indeed a simplified in Japanese as 摂.
And apparently, can also be read as toru (as in: 食事を摂る). Mind, I'd be keeping my big bazoo shut if "photography" were written 摂影 -- wouldn't be loving it, natch, but wouldn't be wringing the life out of a tea towel, either.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
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Re: False cognates

Post by clawgrip » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 13:37

I really only know 摂 from 摂津 Settsu, an old Japanese province.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Lao Kou » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 13:52

clawgrip wrote:I really only know 摂 from 摂津 Settsu, an old Japanese province.
From what you and GrandPiano have described, this is where 摂 gets the bulk of its airplay.
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Re: False cognates

Post by MrKrov » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 19:39

clawgrip wrote:可愛い kawaii is etymologically Chinese, so this is a true cognate, not a false one.
wiktionary per 可愛い wrote:Shift in pronunciation from kawayui below.[1]

The kanji spelling 可愛い is an example of ateji (当て字), and uses an irregular reading of 愛. The phonological resemblance to Chinese 可愛 (kě'ài, “lovable”) is coincidental. Note that the medial -w- here is not an excrescence added between ka (可) and ai (愛), since the word is not formed from these morphemes.
...
A contraction of classical 顔映し /kahahayushi/ → /kahayushi/.[1] Medial /ha/ becomes [wa] via synchronic phonological processes. It is unclear if the word before contraction was initially realized as *[kahahayushi] or as *[kawawayushi].
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All4Ɇn
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Re: False cognates

Post by All4Ɇn » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 20:25

Whoops just saw MrKrov's post above
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Re: False cognates

Post by clawgrip » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 23:20

Well there you go, guess I should have looked that one up. That w was highly suspicious, after all.
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Fri 21 Apr 2017, 19:56

:chn: Zhuang dou "door" (Sawndip 都 or 偷*) - :eng: door

*There is one more Sawndip character according to Wiktionary, but I get an error message if I try to include it in this post; see here.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by DesEsseintes » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 14:50

I don't think I've seen this mentioned:

Malay: muka n. face

Japanese: 向かう mukau v. to face
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Re: False cognates

Post by k1234567890y » Sun 30 Apr 2017, 15:57

English woman and Old Japanese /womi1na/ "woman"
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Tue 02 May 2017, 20:30

:por: cão "dog" - :chn: 狗 gǒu "dog"
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 07 May 2017, 04:57

:vie: cổ "neck"
:fra: cou "neck"
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Re: False cognates

Post by clawgrip » Sun 07 May 2017, 05:20

Not sure if it was mentioned or not, but:

:eng: so "in this/that/the stated manner"
:jpn: "in that/the stated manner"

This one always stood out to me.

e.g.

そう思う。
Sō omou.

"I think so."
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Sun 07 May 2017, 18:54

I think I mentioned that one a while ago - or if I didn't, I meant to. Definitely an interesting coincidence.

Perhaps one could also add :esp: así "so" (same as :jpn: そう or こう).
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by clawgrip » Mon 08 May 2017, 14:05

(Don't forget ああ).

But how is así similar to these words?
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Re: False cognates

Post by DesEsseintes » Mon 08 May 2017, 16:23

clawgrip wrote:(Don't forget ああ).

But how is así similar to these words?
[+1]
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Mon 08 May 2017, 20:18

clawgrip wrote:(Don't forget ああ).

But how is así similar to these words?
If you take away the /a/ at the beginning, it follows the same phonological structure of /sV/. Considering the meanings are exactly the same, I don't think it's too much of a stretch.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 09 May 2017, 02:34

:vie: Jurai hờnǐ "honey"
:eng: honey
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Re: False cognates

Post by Creyeditor » Sun 14 May 2017, 20:10

:idn: :mys: :sgp: Bahasa Indonesia, Bahasa Melayu, etc. jangan don't (prohibitive)
:cmr: Bulu ndʒáŋán missing (negative existence)
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Re: False cognates

Post by qwed117 » Sat 27 May 2017, 21:17

:eng: volley ~ :ell: βᾰ́λλω "to throw" (/val.lo/ in 10th Century Byzantine)
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