False cognates

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WeepingElf
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Re: False cognates

Post by WeepingElf » Mon 24 Sep 2018, 19:00

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
Sun 23 Sep 2018, 19:32
:eng: Earth (and :deu: Erde) - :ara: أَرْض 'ard "earth"

I'm sure this one has been brought up many times before, but I just read it in a book about Arab history and that's just weird. I mean, how can they not be related? One has to wonder...
There are speculations that this could be a Neolithic Wanderwort (originally meaning 'crop field' or 'soil'), being borrowed into both IE and Semitic from the unknown language of the first farmers in the Near East, together with some others such as the word for 'bull'.
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Re: False cognates

Post by All4Ɇn » Thu 27 Sep 2018, 01:46

:jpn: 哀歌 aika "elegy" or "Lamentations"
:isr: אֵיכָה 'eikhá "Lamentations"
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » Wed 03 Oct 2018, 22:12

This is loose, as at is really the same idiom being used across time, space, and linguistic families, but they sound nothing alike, but I'd thought I'd share it:
:eng: Streetwalker Mishnaic :isr: /josˤejɛθ haħuwsˤ/ "id.; Lit. 'she who goes outside'"
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » Wed 03 Oct 2018, 22:19

:hkg: /kei˨/ "Prostitute" :eng: Geisha "Japanese Prostitute". The latter is misapplication of a word for "Traditional Japanese Female Dancer"
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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » Sat 06 Oct 2018, 21:27

Salmoneus wrote:
Tue 04 Sep 2018, 00:14
coop vs cubby vs cubicle
And come to think of it: cube vs cubicle. -icle is such a common diminutive, and the two are so close in meaning, that it seems almost impossible that they're not related. But "cubicle" is actually an instrumental derivative of a verb for lying down - hence, "lying down place" - whereas 'cube' is from Greek, possibly in turn from a Lydian word for dice.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » Mon 08 Oct 2018, 19:40

WeepingElf wrote:
Mon 24 Sep 2018, 19:00
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
Sun 23 Sep 2018, 19:32
:eng: Earth (and :deu: Erde) - :ara: أَرْض 'ard "earth"

I'm sure this one has been brought up many times before, but I just read it in a book about Arab history and that's just weird. I mean, how can they not be related? One has to wonder...
There are speculations that this could be a Neolithic Wanderwort (originally meaning 'crop field' or 'soil'), being borrowed into both IE and Semitic from the unknown language of the first farmers in the Near East, together with some others such as the word for 'bull'.
The PIE source is *h₁er-, without the final coronal, it shows up in North Germanic as Icelandic <aur> /øyːr/ "Mud", East Germanic in Gothic < aurahjons > "Tombs", in Albanian with a /v/ attached to the beginning as <varr> "grave", and in Celtic, possibly in Welsh <Erw> "Field". The PIE word IMHO probably meant "used or dug/plowed ground" and the meaning was narrowed in West Germanic. As for the word for Bull, it shows up only in two families, which IMHO indicates borrowing, a more prototypical Wanderwort for me is the source of :eng: "Mare" showing up in the Altaic Sprachbund as Mongolian морь, Manchu Morin,Sino-Tibetan as Old :zho: (Zhangzhang) /*mraːʔ/and in Koreanic as :kor: 말 /mal/.
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 11 Oct 2018, 23:19

:jpn: Classical Japanese ます -masu (honorific verb suffix)
:jpn: Modern Japanese ます -masu (polite verb suffix)

You would think that the latter would come from the former, but apparently they’re unrelated.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by All4Ɇn » Fri 12 Oct 2018, 07:01

GrandPiano wrote:
Thu 11 Oct 2018, 23:19
:jpn: Classical Japanese ます -masu (honorific verb suffix)
:jpn: Modern Japanese ます -masu (polite verb suffix)

You would think that the latter would come from the former, but apparently they’re unrelated.
Woah really? Where did you read about that?
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Re: False cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Fri 12 Oct 2018, 16:31

All4Ɇn wrote:
Fri 12 Oct 2018, 07:01
GrandPiano wrote:
Thu 11 Oct 2018, 23:19
:jpn: Classical Japanese ます -masu (honorific verb suffix)
:jpn: Modern Japanese ます -masu (polite verb suffix)

You would think that the latter would come from the former, but apparently they’re unrelated.
Woah really? Where did you read about that?
Modern -masu apparently comes from a contraction of classical mawirasuru, the attributive form of the causative form of the humble verb mawiru (参る, modern mairu) “to go, to come, to give, to serve, to do”.

The old honorific -masu comes from the old honorific verb masu “to be, to go, to come” used as an auxiliary verb.

Source: https://kobun.weblio.jp/content/ます
Wiktionary also has a description of the etymology of modern -masu.

You can also tell that they’re etymologically different because they belong to different conjugational classes. The old classical masu was a consonant-stem or yodan verb (equivalent to a modern godan verb); modern -masu conjugates irregularly, but it originally had a classical nidan conjugation, giving the modern negative form -masen. If it came from a yodan verb, you would expect the negative form to be -masan.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » Sat 20 Oct 2018, 21:19

Another naive one from me, I'm afraid: I always used to assume that English quoth had something to do with quote. Given that, you know, they differ in only one letter, and they both refer to spoken words, and 'quoth' is only ever used when quoting, and only differs in connotation from 'to quote'.

But they're completely unrelated. 'quoth' is obviously the past tense of the obscure word 'to quethe', and has always referred to speaking; whereas 'quote' comes from Latin 'quot', 'how many'. [which gives Latin 'quotus', 'which (number in sequence)', which gives mediaeval latin 'quotare', 'to distinguish by use of numbers', which gives middle english 'quoten', 'to ascribe chapter numbers to', which... presumably gave 'quotation' originally in the sense of 'a single chapter referred to by number', hence 'citation', hence 'extract to demonstrate a citation', which presumably allowed the meaning of the verb 'quote' to change in turn to 'include extracted text from', which then in turn yields 'repeat the speech of'. Which only in the 19th century zero-derives (or abbreviates the verbal noun) to produce nominal 'a quote'. So it's a long and frankly bizarre derivation that just happens to end up only one letter away from a near-synonymous word of unrelated origin...]
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Re: False cognates

Post by Salmoneus » Sat 20 Oct 2018, 21:55

OK, this one surprised me, though I've encountered it before...


English tally, 'to count'
Proto-Germanic taljana, 'to count'. Likewise its derivative talo:, 'calculation, counting', Old Saxon tellian, and modern English tell and tale.

The former has ended up with the same meaning and pronunciation as the latter (allowing that the -ana is just the infinitive ending - so, for instance, English /tali:d/, PGmc /talide:/ for the 3rd person past singular). But they're completely unrelated. tally is instead from Latin 'talea', a stick.


What's more! 'Tally' can mean 'to check off', or 'to make sure two reports match', or just 'to match an earlier report'. Fair enough. And pilots, when being told that there is traffic nearby, reply "tally", to indicate that they have looked for and seen the traffic, finding that it matched the report and that this can be checked off. In the same way you might confirm a statement or indicate understanding by saying "check"*. Except: "tally" in this sense is, again, entirely unrelated. Pilots say "tally" because it's short for "tallyho!", the cry made when a hunter's prey (and by extension any object of interest) has been sighted, and is a deformation of the juxtaposted interjections "ta!" and "ho!"




*and this is an almost as remarkable LACK of a false cognate. Yes, all the varied and important uses of the word 'check' (and 'cheque', and 'exchequer' and so on) do derive simply from the habit of shouting "check!" when a chessplayer is at risk of losing the game, which in turn is just the Persian word for '(look at your) king!' (cognate of modern 'shah').
This is ridiculous. Although it does mean 'check' and (the aviation sense of) 'tally' are two of the rare words to have originally been ritual, rather than propositional, in origin. Even more so "checkmate", which people have been saying since the introduction of chess into Europe, but which at first had no meaning - it was simply what you traditionally shouted when winning a game of chess, and only later came to be used for the winning/losing board situation that provokes the cry. It's from a Persian expression meaning "the king is amazed!" (I'm guessing 'confounded' might be a better translation?), and was imported wholesale even though nobody would have known its significance when they were saying it...
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Re: False cognates

Post by Lambuzhao » Sat 20 Oct 2018, 23:58

Salmoneus wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 21:19
Another naive one from me, I'm afraid: I always used to assume that English quoth had something to do with quote. Given that, you know, they differ in only one letter, and they both refer to spoken words, and 'quoth' is only ever used when quoting, and only differs in connotation from 'to quote'.

But they're completely unrelated. 'quoth' is obviously the past tense of the obscure word 'to quethe', and has always referred to speaking;
'Bequeath' is also related to quethe/quoth [->] OE becweðan 'to say, speak to, exhort, blame', also 'leave by will'.

I'm of the opinion that Twitter could/should have been Cwiððer. [:3]
Conversely, the past/deverbal forms of the social media verb 'tweet' might have been 'twote'.

I'll stop now.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Xonen » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 00:00

Salmoneus wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 21:19
Another naive one from me, I'm afraid: I always used to assume that English quoth had something to do with quote. Given that, you know, they differ in only one letter, and they both refer to spoken words, and 'quoth' is only ever used when quoting, and only differs in connotation from 'to quote'.

But they're completely unrelated. 'quoth' is obviously the past tense of the obscure word 'to quethe', and has always referred to speaking; whereas 'quote' comes from Latin 'quot', 'how many'. [which gives Latin 'quotus', 'which (number in sequence)', which gives mediaeval latin 'quotare', 'to distinguish by use of numbers', which gives middle english 'quoten', 'to ascribe chapter numbers to', which... presumably gave 'quotation' originally in the sense of 'a single chapter referred to by number', hence 'citation', hence 'extract to demonstrate a citation', which presumably allowed the meaning of the verb 'quote' to change in turn to 'include extracted text from', which then in turn yields 'repeat the speech of'. Which only in the 19th century zero-derives (or abbreviates the verbal noun) to produce nominal 'a quote'. So it's a long and frankly bizarre derivation that just happens to end up only one letter away from a near-synonymous word of unrelated origin...]
In cases like this, I tend to be tempted to assume that the meaning of one word was influenced by the other (so in this case, the present meaning of "quote" would have been influenced by "quoth"), if only so that I can keep telling myself the world makes at least some sense... Although I'm not sure how likely that is here; the usage might be a bit too different, and "quoth" appears to have been slowly making its way to obsolescence since Early Modern English times.


Lambuzhao wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 23:58
Conversely, the past/deverbal forms of the social media verb 'tweet' might have been 'twote'.
What do you mean, "might"? [;)]
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 01:37

Honestly, I've always encountered "Quoth" in the 3P.SING, so I figured it was an irregular verb without a past tense, *Quoe, and "Quote" was *Quoe with some obscure Old/Middle English deverbalizer, that when *Quoe fell out of normal speech, was reverbalized, and "Quotation" was a misapplication of the reverbalized form.
It's also a shame that <Quoth> is archaic, as the only Germanic Languages that it's still around in are Danish, Icelandic and Faroese (Though Wiktionary indicates it's in Scots as a noun "queth", though on the page for "queth" quoth it not.) I guess "Bequeath" is something....
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Re: False cognates

Post by Pabappa » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 03:55

Interesting, I had no idea the chess sense was the original. Id heard the chess etymology before but disnt know it was the same word. And, is it possible that instead of "the king is amazed", it's actually "the king is dead"? /mawt/ means death but I'm not sure how to get a participle even with wiktionary's helpful tables. Death is the etymology I remember.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Lao Kou » Sat 10 Nov 2018, 06:52

:chn: :twn: 焙 bèi bake
:eng: bake
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
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Re: False cognates

Post by Aszev » Sat 10 Nov 2018, 13:33

en. scorch
fr. écorcher, ca. escorxar 'to skin'

I suppose the meanings aren't that close at a closer look, but the superficial similarity and the sense of damaging the surface of something made me believe they were cognates!
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

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Re: False cognates

Post by Pabappa » Sat 10 Nov 2018, 19:07

Old Japanese :jpn: upe:eng: "up"
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Re: False cognates

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 10 Nov 2018, 21:00

I wouldn't be surprised if this has been brought up before, but I couldn't find it in this thread. If I missed it, my apologies.

:jpn: あなた, あんた anata, anta "you"*
:arab: أنت ʾanta/ʾanti "you"*

*These are second person pronouns. ʾanta and ʾanti are the independent(/nominative?) forms of 2s.MASC and 2s.FEM, respectively. As with all Japanese pronouns, anata and anta carry certain connotations, more so than, for example, the English "you", so I wouldn't feel right just translating them as "you" and leaving it at that, but I also don't think I'm qualified to properly explain how exactly they're used. anata was explained to me as not being impolite, but also not being as polite as possible. It seems to be the 2nd person pronoun that foreigners are taught first. I think anta is a less-formal variant that can be either rude or endearing.
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Re: False cognates

Post by Shemtov » Fri 16 Nov 2018, 20:35

"Channukah" and Bukharian /xunokijo/ "Coldness"
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
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