Orthographic quirks in natlangs

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Ælfwine
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Ælfwine » Mon 11 Jul 2016, 19:24

This is not used by any current natlang but is someone's attempted cyrillization of Old Norse that I found extremely odd, so I thought I'd share it anyway:

http://www.omniglot.com/conscripts/onc.htm

This is so bad. What is up with the letter "la?" How does that intuitively represent [n], which is already represented by another letter? Why are there letters for /ja/ and /ju/ but not /jo/ or /jɔ/? Why is Ætt have two totally different phonemes? And why no rune for *R?
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by sangi39 » Tue 12 Jul 2016, 09:52

Ælfwine wrote:This is not used by any current natlang but is someone's attempted cyrillization of Old Norse that I found extremely odd, so I thought I'd share it anyway:

http://www.omniglot.com/conscripts/onc.htm

This is so bad. What is up with the letter "la?" How does that intuitively represent [n], which is already represented by another letter? Why are there letters for /ja/ and /ju/ but not /jo/ or /jɔ/? Why is Ætt have two totally different phonemes? And why no rune for *R?
The "la" /n/ thing seems to be a typo, given the sample text. It should be /ll/.

Overall, I get the feeling that. The system in general seems like a bit of a bodge overall, splitting up phonemes some of the time and merging others, not to mention making odd choices like He for /h/ where Cyrillic <x> would have done equally well.
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Ælfwine » Wed 13 Jul 2016, 05:04

sangi39 wrote:
Ælfwine wrote:This is not used by any current natlang but is someone's attempted cyrillization of Old Norse that I found extremely odd, so I thought I'd share it anyway:

http://www.omniglot.com/conscripts/onc.htm

This is so bad. What is up with the letter "la?" How does that intuitively represent [n], which is already represented by another letter? Why are there letters for /ja/ and /ju/ but not /jo/ or /jɔ/? Why is Ætt have two totally different phonemes? And why no rune for *R?
The "la" /n/ thing seems to be a typo, given the sample text. It should be /ll/.

Overall, I get the feeling that. The system in general seems like a bit of a bodge overall, splitting up phonemes some of the time and merging others, not to mention making odd choices like He for /h/ where Cyrillic <x> would have done equally well.
Old Norse *h was probably [x] anyway.

But yeah, I agree. It's a mess. I'm also tempted to make my own system that should be more intuitive.
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by HinGambleGoth » Wed 13 Jul 2016, 20:23

Ælfwine wrote: Old Norse *h was probably [x] anyway.
That is an interesting question unto itself, when did the shift x = h occur in germanic?

Seeing how intervocalic germanic x* was mostly lost in the medieval Germanic vernacular dialects it was arguably /h/ at the time. But in initial consonant clusters it was still /x/ in the medieval languages, hence the shift /xw/ = /kv/ in some norweigan dialects and latin spelling Chlodovechus for frankish *Hlodowig.

How were Greek loans with X spelled in Gothic?
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by markski » Wed 13 Jul 2016, 21:27

According to both the UT Linguistics Research center and Omniglot, a separate letter <X> named iggws was used for the purpose, thus Χριστος > Xristus.
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by opipik » Thu 14 Jul 2016, 17:57

Enga: /ɽ ʎ/ <l ly>
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 14 Jul 2016, 18:53

Hiw /gʟ/ <r̄>
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Ælfwine » Fri 15 Jul 2016, 00:08

HinGambleGoth wrote:
Ælfwine wrote: Old Norse *h was probably [x] anyway.
That is an interesting question unto itself, when did the shift x = h occur in germanic?

Seeing how intervocalic germanic x* was mostly lost in the medieval Germanic vernacular dialects it was arguably /h/ at the time. But in initial consonant clusters it was still /x/ in the medieval languages, hence the shift /xw/ = /kv/ in some norweigan dialects and latin spelling Chlodovechus for frankish *Hlodowig.

How were Greek loans with X spelled in Gothic?
Perhaps if there were any alternations between *k and *h in manuscripts can give us a good clue?

I believe they are spelt with an <x>.
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