False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

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Iyionaku
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku » Mon 19 Feb 2018, 14:51

:eng: to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
:deu: etw. überhören / etw. übersehen

The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Dormouse559 » Mon 19 Feb 2018, 18:22

Iyionaku wrote:
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 14:51
:eng: to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
:deu: etw. überhören / etw. übersehen

The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by ixals » Mon 19 Feb 2018, 18:41

Dormouse559 wrote:
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 18:22
Iyionaku wrote:
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 14:51
:eng: to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
:deu: etw. überhören / etw. übersehen

The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".
I think we can! Übersicht is neither oversight nor supervision or omission, but rather overview.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Pabappa » Mon 19 Feb 2018, 19:57

On Wikipedia around 2005, the developers borrowed a German software module, Aufsicht , into English as "extension:Oversight", with the verb also being called "oversight" and the agent of this verb being "oversighter". For some reason, perhaps just to make it easier for developers, even the German Wikipedia came to use the term "Oversight " instead of the original Aufsicht.

In any case, the meaning of the word was not the same as either of the established meanings of the English word. The extension has been replaced by "RevisionDelete" but the use of "oversight(er)" is still common even though the two extensions are originally two separate modules.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano » Mon 19 Feb 2018, 22:49

There are three verbs in Japanese that are pronounced “haku” (履く “to put on/wear (lower-body clothing or shoes)”, 吐く “to vomit”, and 掃く “to sweep”), and it just occurred to me that at an earlier period in the language’s history, all of these verbs would have been pronounced “faku”.

(More accurately [ɸaku])
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Lao Kou » Tue 20 Feb 2018, 02:52

Dormouse559 wrote:
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 18:22
Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".
The verb "overlook" has the sense of "look out over" (A hotel that overlooks the ocean) as well as the sense of "not see", "disregard".
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 20 Feb 2018, 10:22

ixals wrote:
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 18:41
Dormouse559 wrote:
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 18:22
Iyionaku wrote:
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 14:51
:eng: to overhear sth. / to oversee sth.
:deu: etw. überhören / etw. übersehen

The German ones actually mean "not to hear / not to see sth.". This can actually cause confusion because it is not immediately obvious that the German speaker didn't mean "overhear", or the English speaker didn't mean "überhören", respectively.
Ooh, excellent! I wonder if we can make this even knottier. The noun form of "oversee" is "oversight", which can mean either "supervision" or "omission".
I think we can! Übersicht is neither oversight nor supervision or omission, but rather overview.
Also maybe one could add colloquial German rübersehen/rübergucken which for me usually means 'to proofread' aka 'to look over'. Probably there is some German dialect where this is rüberschauen.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku » Tue 20 Feb 2018, 11:14

GrandPiano wrote:
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 22:49
There are three verbs in Japanese that are pronounced “haku” (履く “to put on/wear (lower-body clothing or shoes)”, 吐く “to vomit”, and 掃く “to sweep”), and it just occurred to me that at an earlier period in the language’s history, all of these verbs would have been pronounced “faku”.

(More accurately [ɸaku])
That's the problem if you speak a language with about 100 possible syllables (even Mandarin, the popular synonym of a language full of homophones, has about a thousand!). I am pretty sure there are dozens like this.
Creyeditor wrote:
Tue 20 Feb 2018, 10:22
Also maybe one could add colloquial German rübersehen/rübergucken which for me usually means 'to proofread' aka 'to look over'. Probably there is some German dialect where this is rüberschauen.
It's drüberschauen in my idiolect. rübersehen/rübergucken/rüberschauen for me means something different: "to look across something / to look here".

"Kannst du mal kurz rüberschauen (damit ich ein Foto machen kann)?"
Can you just look here (so I can take a photo)?

In case you and I were both not mistaken, we just found a language-internal false friend! [:D]
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano » Tue 20 Feb 2018, 22:10

Iyionaku wrote:
Tue 20 Feb 2018, 11:14
GrandPiano wrote:
Mon 19 Feb 2018, 22:49
There are three verbs in Japanese that are pronounced “haku” (履く “to put on/wear (lower-body clothing or shoes)”, 吐く “to vomit”, and 掃く “to sweep”), and it just occurred to me that at an earlier period in the language’s history, all of these verbs would have been pronounced “faku”.

(More accurately [ɸaku])
That's the problem if you speak a language with about 100 possible syllables (even Mandarin, the popular synonym of a language full of homophones, has about a thousand!). I am pretty sure there are dozens like this.
I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 08:11

:idn: dua - two
Fiji: dua - one

Both are Malayo-Polynesian languages - I wonder how that could emerge?
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 12:50

One can only guess.
Indonesian dua comes from Proto-Austronesian *<duSa> /dusa/.
The Fijian form is IINM /dua/. If we assume the Proto-Austronesian form *<əsa> /əça/, we habe to assume schwa deletion (>/ça/), foritition (>/da/) and diphthongization (maybe also depalatalization?) to get /dua/. Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 14:02

Creyeditor wrote:
Thu 22 Feb 2018, 12:50
Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
Indeed, the number two in Fijian is rua.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Salmoneus » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 14:06

Creyeditor wrote:
Thu 22 Feb 2018, 12:50
One can only guess.
Indonesian dua comes from Proto-Austronesian *<duSa> /dusa/.
The Fijian form is IINM /dua/. If we assume the Proto-Austronesian form *<əsa> /əça/, we habe to assume schwa deletion (>/ça/), foritition (>/da/) and diphthongization (maybe also depalatalization?) to get /dua/. Interestingly Proto-Austronesian *d>r, so there might have been a need to gain new d's?
The ACD says that it is "not clear" whether any reflex of esa/isa/asa survives in Oceanic, other than the article, and that the possible reflexes are probably morphologically complex if they're related at all. Polynesian apparently has *tasi, which has an alveolar in it but otherwise doesn't look that close to dua. The fact that the first two polynesian numbers, dua rua, rhyme, seems a little suspicious to me.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 15:49

Salmoneus wrote:
Thu 22 Feb 2018, 14:06
The fact that the first two polynesian numbers, dua rua, rhyme, seems a little suspicious to me.
Why though? In German, 2 and 3 rhyme too. (zwei/drei). And yes, it causes a lot of confusion. There is an alternative form of 2, "two", that descriptively is exclusively used to distinguish 2 from 3. But I get off the point...
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Salmoneus » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 18:01

Iyionaku wrote:
Thu 22 Feb 2018, 15:49
Salmoneus wrote:
Thu 22 Feb 2018, 14:06
The fact that the first two polynesian numbers, dua rua, rhyme, seems a little suspicious to me.
Why though? In German, 2 and 3 rhyme too. (zwei/drei). And yes, it causes a lot of confusion. There is an alternative form of 2, "two", that descriptively is exclusively used to distinguish 2 from 3. But I get off the point...
Well, you just answered that question yourself, didn't you? Why do German 'zwei' and 'drei' rhyme? Because 'zwei' has been reformulated analogically in order to rhyme with 'drei'.

Well, we don't know that. But clearly 'zwei' is not regularly derived from *dwoH. There may have been some analogy from nominal and adjectival paradigms, but it's rather suspicious that the odd resulting neuter form rhymed with the next number. And then it's rather convenient that the OHG masculine form just stopped being used, replaced by the rhyming neuter form.

The point is: it's common for numbers to derive irregularly due to influence from adjacent numbers. The fact that dua and rua rhyme makes me wonder whether 'dua' has been irregularly influenced by 'rua' at some point.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 20:20

Salmoneus wrote:
Thu 22 Feb 2018, 18:01
Iyionaku wrote:
Thu 22 Feb 2018, 15:49
Salmoneus wrote:
Thu 22 Feb 2018, 14:06
The fact that the first two polynesian numbers, dua rua, rhyme, seems a little suspicious to me.
Why though? In German, 2 and 3 rhyme too. (zwei/drei). And yes, it causes a lot of confusion. There is an alternative form of 2, "two", that descriptively is exclusively used to distinguish 2 from 3. But I get off the point...
Well, you just answered that question yourself, didn't you? Why do German 'zwei' and 'drei' rhyme? Because 'zwei' has been reformulated analogically in order to rhyme with 'drei'.

Well, we don't know that. But clearly 'zwei' is not regularly derived from *dwoH. There may have been some analogy from nominal and adjectival paradigms, but it's rather suspicious that the odd resulting neuter form rhymed with the next number. And then it's rather convenient that the OHG masculine form just stopped being used, replaced by the rhyming neuter form.

The point is: it's common for numbers to derive irregularly due to influence from adjacent numbers. The fact that dua and rua rhyme makes me wonder whether 'dua' has been irregularly influenced by 'rua' at some point.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by All4Ɇn » Thu 22 Feb 2018, 20:55

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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Khemehekis » Sat 24 Feb 2018, 00:34

GrandPiano wrote:
Tue 20 Feb 2018, 22:10
I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
Faku? Not paku?
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 24 Feb 2018, 00:42

Khemehekis wrote:
Sat 24 Feb 2018, 00:34
GrandPiano wrote:
Tue 20 Feb 2018, 22:10
I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
Faku? Not paku?
"faku" would have been an intermediate stage between "paku" and "haku".
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano » Sat 24 Feb 2018, 04:10

shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 24 Feb 2018, 00:42
Khemehekis wrote:
Sat 24 Feb 2018, 00:34
GrandPiano wrote:
Tue 20 Feb 2018, 22:10
I guess it might have been unclear, but the unfortunate coincidence I was trying to point to was the English word that “faku” sounds like.
Faku? Not paku?
"faku" would have been an intermediate stage between "paku" and "haku".
Yep. Word-initial [p] became [ɸ], and [ɸ] became [h] everywhere except before /u/, which is why ふ is pronounced “fu”.
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