False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

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Shemtov
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov » Thu 10 May 2018, 02:42

Khemehekis wrote:
Thu 10 May 2018, 02:08
Shemtov wrote:
Thu 10 May 2018, 02:02
:eng: Retardation" "Offensive Term for Cognitive Handicap" "Literary device involving the slowing of the pace of a work of fiction for dramatic effect".
I found this in Greek and Roman Classical Literature class, and after the professor introduced the literary device as a non-offensive term said "We are skipping chapters VIII-XI of the Aeneid because they are retarded."
To my understanding, these are etymologically related. The underlying meaning of "retard" is "to slow down". So "mentally retarded" means "slowed down mentally". See, for instance, flame retardant.
Doesn't mean it's not an "unfortunate coincidence".
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by eldin raigmore » Thu 10 May 2018, 05:17

No, it’s not a coincidence, and it’s not a false friend.

It’s unfortunate, I guess, maybe.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov » Thu 10 May 2018, 09:12

eldin raigmore wrote:
Thu 10 May 2018, 05:17
No, it’s not a coincidence, and it’s not a false friend.

It’s unfortunate, I guess, maybe.
Maybe my semantic spread of "coincidence" is larger then yours, but I consider it a coincidence that the same word has two semantic meanings: a technical term for analyzing literature, and an offensive term for cognitive disability; to me the fact that the latter use is offensive is because it began to move away from the meaning of "held back".
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Lao Kou » Thu 10 May 2018, 11:53

Shemtov wrote:
Thu 10 May 2018, 09:12
eldin raigmore wrote:
Thu 10 May 2018, 05:17
No, it’s not a coincidence, and it’s not a false friend.

It’s unfortunate, I guess, maybe.
Maybe my semantic spread of "coincidence" is larger then yours, but I consider it a coincidence that the same word has two semantic meanings: a technical term for analyzing literature, and an offensive term for cognitive disability; to me the fact that the latter use is offensive is because it began to move away from the meaning of "held back".
I'm with eldin on this one. These terms didn't arise separately ex nihilo -- that would be a coincidence. That a word should furcate in meaning and pick up extra connotative muck over time is not a coincidence.

By that standard, that "silly" meant "blessed" at other times (or perhaps now in dialect) and "foolish" now is a coincidence.

Edit: A more contemporary example might be the use of "gay", going from "joyful, happy" to "homosexual" (still valid) to teen slang for "weird", "strange", "something my in-group would look down on or ostracize" (was valid before I left the US (still?)). This is not coincidental. IMNSHO

"Retardation" of any type involves a slowness or delay. Back in the day, "(mental) retardation" was the go-to term for that cognitive disability (and a quick Bing search seems to indicate that the term is still available in an uncharged, clinical way) -- though that must be on the way out). That it's become an offensive term is, I merely surmise, because the integrated schoolyard taunt "retard" started as a moniker for mentally challenged students and spread as an insult you didn't want applied to yourself at all costs, and that poisoned the well for the term in general. But the term "slow", referring to mental ability, may not be as emotionally charged as "retarded", but also makes me feels squeamish in its offensiveness or condescension (Of George and Lenny in Of Mice and Men, Lenny is "slow"). The metaphor is the same, and that's no coincidence.

Though it may well be unfortunate.

Shemtov wrote: :eng: "Literary device involving the slowing of the pace of a work of fiction for dramatic effect".
I found this in Greek and Roman Classical Literature class, and after the professor introduced the literary device as a non-offensive term said "We are skipping chapters VIII-XI of the Aeneid because they are retarded."
I didn't do an extensive search on this, because, well, I want to cook dinner, but all I could find was The Glossary of Literary Terms under

54. Retardation (delayed utterance) - an intentional delay in the completion of the phrases or clauses expressing modality of thought, time and the like to detain the conclusion of the utterance

which makes your professor's term, if not incorrect (again, dunno), seem a little erudite and esoteric, unless s/he points you to older texts where the term is used in this way, so you don't misinterpret it.

Too, when I hear the term "false friend", I think of words used cross-linguistically that you don't think you have to worry about: like French "sensible", which is not English "sensible" but "sensitive". This is not the same as Chaucer dribbling down to us and us not getting it.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano » Tue 22 May 2018, 22:22

:jpn: Ainu ク ku “to drink”
:jpn: Japanese 食う kuu “to eat”
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by sangi39 » Tue 29 May 2018, 20:36

Taos: cínemą "eye" (root ci- "eye(s)" + -nemą, an inverse number suffix, as opposed to the default duoplural suffix -ne for nouns in this class)
English: cinema
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano » Wed 30 May 2018, 00:58

:jpn: Okinawan 北 nishi "north" - :jpn: Japanese 西 nishi "west"

Interestingly, the words seem to be cognates.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov » Thu 31 May 2018, 18:06

:pol: <jeśli> /jɛʃlʲi/ "if" :heb: /jeʃli/ "I Have"
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Shemtov » Thu 07 Jun 2018, 19:34

:pol: <być>/bɨt͡ɕ/ "To be" :eng: Bitch
:lat: :esp: :ita: :por: Zona :rus: зона [zonə] "Zone" vs. :isr: [zona] "Whore"
:rus: сука /suka/ "Bitch" vs. :isr: /suka/ "Ritual hut for the Feast of Tabernacles"
Pal. :arab: /ʔe:ʃ/ "What" :isr: /ʔeɪʃ/ "fire"
:kor: -니다 [ɲida] "POL.DEC" :isr: /nida/ "Menstruating woman"
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 07 Jun 2018, 23:55

:eng: piracy
:jpn: パイらしい pai rashii "it seems like pie"
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:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Birdlang » Fri 08 Jun 2018, 11:32

Shemtov wrote:
Thu 07 Jun 2018, 19:34
:pol: <być>/bɨt͡ɕ/ "To be" :eng: Bitch
:lat: :esp: :ita: :por: Zona :rus: зона [zonə] "Zone" vs. :isr: [zona] "Whore"
:rus: сука /suka/ "Bitch" vs. :isr: /suka/ "Ritual hut for the Feast of Tabernacles"
Pal. :arab: /ʔe:ʃ/ "What" :isr: /ʔeɪʃ/ "fire"
:kor: -니다 [ɲida] "POL.DEC" :isr: /nida/ "Menstruating woman"
To add to the Russian one. :idn: suka means like.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Lao Kou » Fri 08 Jun 2018, 18:11

Birdlang wrote:
Fri 08 Jun 2018, 11:32
To add to the Russian one. :idn: suka means like.
Well then, :idn: suka, :jpn: 好き suki "like"
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by GrandPiano » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 01:47

Lao Kou wrote:
Fri 08 Jun 2018, 18:11
Birdlang wrote:
Fri 08 Jun 2018, 11:32
To add to the Russian one. :idn: suka means like.
Well then, :idn: suka, :jpn: 好き suki "like"
Those would be false cognates, wouldn’t they?
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 07:20

I heard a funny coincidence while watching a TV show. A character was getting their formalwear dry-cleaned and they said something like, "Do the cumberbatch, too." It took me a while to figure out they meant "cummerbund", not a British actor.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by WeepingElf » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 12:18

:por: social democratico 'centre-right' (in politics) vs. :deu: sozialdemokratisch 'centre-left' (in politics)
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Lao Kou » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 13:27

GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 01:47
Lao Kou wrote:
Fri 08 Jun 2018, 18:11
Birdlang wrote:
Fri 08 Jun 2018, 11:32
To add to the Russian one. :idn: suka means like.
Well then, :idn: suka, :jpn: 好き suki "like"
Those would be false cognates, wouldn’t they?
Sure. I left it here because :idn: suka first appeared here, and I was too lazy to seek out the "false cognate" thread. Since you were concerned, I sought out the "false cognate" thread and reposted it there.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Xonen » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 15:21

WeepingElf wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 12:18
:por: social democratico 'centre-right' (in politics) vs. :deu: sozialdemokratisch 'centre-left' (in politics)
This actually strikes me as a fairly mild case of political terminology meaning different things in different countries, considering how much this can vary (indeed, sometimes even within the same country, depending on who's talking and/or whom they're speaking against...). But I suppose that's more of a political issue than a linguistic one, although the false friend effect is probably largely the same.
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Khemehekis » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 16:49

Xonen wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 15:21
This actually strikes me as a fairly mild case of political terminology meaning different things in different countries, considering how much this can vary (indeed, sometimes even within the same country, depending on who's talking and/or whom they're speaking against...). But I suppose that's more of a political issue than a linguistic one, although the false friend effect is probably largely the same.
Like the way "liberal" means libertarian in Europe, but refers to someone on the anterior top left of a Vosem Chart (socially permissive, favoring Big Government on fiscal issues, against corporate personhood) in the U.S.?
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Imralu » Sat 09 Jun 2018, 22:03

Khemehekis wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 16:49
Like the way "liberal" means libertarian in Europe, but refers to someone on the anterior top left of a Vosem Chart (socially permissive, favoring Big Government on fiscal issues, against corporate personhood) in the U.S.?
I thought it was more the other way around
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Re: False friends and other unfortunate coincidences

Post by Khemehekis » Sun 10 Jun 2018, 02:44

Imralu wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 22:03
Khemehekis wrote:
Sat 09 Jun 2018, 16:49
Like the way "liberal" means libertarian in Europe, but refers to someone on the anterior top left of a Vosem Chart (socially permissive, favoring Big Government on fiscal issues, against corporate personhood) in the U.S.?
I thought it was more the other way around
This is what I've always read. Here in America we have the term "tax-and-spend liberal".

Speaking of which . . .

https://www.politicalcompass.org/

Your Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.15
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Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

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