Surprising cognates

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2658
Joined: Sun 11 Jan 2015, 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:02

Imralu wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 05:36
k1234567890y wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018, 21:02
Chinese and English wheel, it is possible that the Chinese word was ultimately a borrowing from a word for wheel from Indo-European languages
Posts like this would be more interesting if you include the pronunciation.
It’s chē [ʈʂʰɤ˥] in Mandarin.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6190
Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:02

Imralu wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 05:36
k1234567890y wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018, 21:02
Chinese and English wheel, it is possible that the Chinese word was ultimately a borrowing from a word for wheel from Indo-European languages
Posts like this would be more interesting if you include the pronunciation.
And the translation. Bing thinks it means “car”.
They also gave a pronunciation, which I don’t feel competent to write down. But it’s not the one GrandPiano just gave — I think.

Neither pronunciation sounds anything like “wheel”; so I’d also like to know; how do we know these are cognates? Or, what’s the evidence, and how probable is it, that they are cognates?
User avatar
Znex
roman
roman
Posts: 1172
Joined: Mon 12 Aug 2013, 13:05
Location: Australia

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Znex » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:12

eldin raigmore wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:02
Imralu wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 05:36
k1234567890y wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018, 21:02
Chinese and English wheel, it is possible that the Chinese word was ultimately a borrowing from a word for wheel from Indo-European languages
Posts like this would be more interesting if you include the pronunciation.
And the translation. Bing thinks it means “car”.
They also gave a pronunciation, which I don’t feel competent to write down. But it’s not the one GrandPiano just gave — I think.
Bing isn't wrong here; more generically means "vehicle", but is very commonly understood to mean "car", as in 開車 kāi chē {drive (a car)}.
:eng: : [tick] | :grc: :wls: : [:|] | :chn: :isr: : [:S] | :nor: :deu: :rom: :ind: :con: : [:x]
Conlangs: Pofp'ash, Ikwawese, Old Quelgic, Nisukil Pʰakwi, Apsiska
User avatar
Lao Kou
korean
korean
Posts: 5661
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Lao Kou » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 07:13

Znex wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:12
eldin raigmore wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:02
k1234567890y wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018, 21:02
Chinese and English wheel, it is possible that the Chinese word was ultimately a borrowing from a word for wheel from Indo-European languages
And the translation. Bing thinks it means “car”.
They also gave a pronunciation, which I don’t feel competent to write down. But it’s not the one GrandPiano just gave — I think.
Bing isn't wrong here; more generically means "vehicle", but is very commonly understood to mean "car", as in 開車 kāi chē {drive (a car)}.
True, but in its sense of "wheeled machine", it is often translated as "wheel":

紡車 fǎngchē - spinning wheel
水車 shuǐchē - water wheel/waterwheel
風車 fēng chē - windmill, but also pinwheel
but
滑車 huáchē - pulley

As for GrandPiano's IPA transcription [ʈ͡ʂʰɤ˥], that is the way it's done to describe the pronunciation Bing gives for modern Mandarin; [t͡sʰɛː˥] in modern Cantonese.
eldin raigmore wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:02
Neither pronunciation sounds anything like “wheel”; so I’d also like to know; how do we know these are cognates? Or, what’s the evidence, and how probable is it, that they are cognates?
I'll leave that to k1234567890y to address, since I don't know.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2639
Joined: Sat 10 Nov 2012, 20:52
Location: California

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Dormouse559 » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 07:24

eldin raigmore wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:02
Neither pronunciation sounds anything like “wheel”; so I’d also like to know; how do we know these are cognates? Or, what’s the evidence, and how probable is it, that they are cognates?
Well, I haven't done any research on the Chinese, but "chakra" is also a cognate of "wheel", so there's some connection with initial palatal sounds.
User avatar
Lao Kou
korean
korean
Posts: 5661
Joined: Sun 25 Nov 2012, 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Lao Kou » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 08:07

Dormouse559 wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 07:24
Well, I haven't done any research on the Chinese, but "chakra" is also a cognate of "wheel", so there's some connection with initial palatal sounds.
Well, that's fun. The Wikipedia article on "Chakra" links chakra etymologically to wheel, according to Frits Staal. Link chakra चक्र (च is sometimes pronounced as [t͡sə] or [t͡s] in addition to [t͡ʃə] or [t͡ʃ] - Wikipedia) to Chinese che (pronunciations discussed above), and you're off and running.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 10695
Joined: Fri 12 Jul 2013, 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 14:15

eldin raigmore wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:02
Neither pronunciation sounds anything like “wheel”; so I’d also like to know; how do we know these are cognates? Or, what’s the evidence, and how probable is it, that they are cognates?
Isn't the point of this thread for the cognates posted to not be obvious?
User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6190
Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by eldin raigmore » Sat 21 Jul 2018, 05:34

shimobaatar wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 14:15
Isn't the point of this thread for the cognates posted to not be obvious?
Of course!
But that doesn’t require the poster thereof to keep the shared ancestor-word a mystery, nor the divergent derivations from that most recent common ancestor.
It only requires that most readers couldn’t easily or quickly figure it out for themselves.

I’m not asking that every poster always make a habit of posting the shared ancestor, much less the diverging etymologies.
(I did ask k1-90y to post that for this one pair. )

But most members of this bboard probably don’t read traditional Chinese script nor read nor speak Mandarin.
So when one member of a pair of cognates is written in Chinese script, I ask that its meaning and sound also be posted.
I’ll go a step further, and ask that, here on this thread in the English section of the CBB, any non-English word in a pair (or larger set) of cognates, be posted with its gloss and its pronunciation.
IMO that won’t usually destroy the non-obviousness of the posted example.

I’d ask for the etymologies only if the words had no apparent semantic similarity and also no apparent phonetic similarity.

What do you say? Would that be OK?


——————————

BTW Thanks, Znex, Lao Kou, Dormouse559, shimobaatar, and anyone else I forgot. I learned something!
User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2658
Joined: Sun 11 Jan 2015, 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Sat 21 Jul 2018, 17:08

According to Wiktionary, 車 is reconstructed as /*[t.qʰ](r)A/ or /*kʰlja/ in Old Chinese (in the first one, the brackets indicate uncertain value and the parentheses indicate uncertain presence). If I remember correctly, it's thought to possibly be a Tocharian borrowing, so either from Tocharian A "kukäl" or Tocharian B "kokale", both of which come from PIE *kʷékʷlos, which also gave English "wheel".
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 10695
Joined: Fri 12 Jul 2013, 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 21 Jul 2018, 18:21

eldin raigmore wrote:
Sat 21 Jul 2018, 05:34
But most members of this bboard probably don’t read traditional Chinese script nor read nor speak Mandarin.
So when one member of a pair of cognates is written in Chinese script, I ask that its meaning and sound also be posted.
I’ll go a step further, and ask that, here on this thread in the English section of the CBB, any non-English word in a pair (or larger set) of cognates, be posted with its gloss and its pronunciation.
Ah, of course. I somehow missed that that's what sparked all this. My apologies.
User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sat 04 Jan 2014, 04:47
Contact:

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by k1234567890y » Mon 23 Jul 2018, 23:02

sorry for the late...;-;

In Old Chinese, the word 車 was possibly pronounced as /*kʰlja/ or /kla/ or something similar, and there's a theory that the word was borrowed from an Indo-European language due to the spread of horseriding and chariots(chariots are associated with the domestication of horse), and thus ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *kʷekʷlóm, *kʷékʷlos, *kʷékʷléh₂. Think of this: *kʷékʷléh₂ >(loss of laryngeals) *kʷékʷlá >(loss of labialization) keklá >(the drop of unstressed vowels) klá

For the English part, it is an inherent word instead of a loanword. The English word is from Proto-Germanic *hwehwlą, *hweulō, which is in turn from Proto-Indo-European *kʷekʷlóm, *kʷékʷlos, *kʷékʷléh₂
私のアツい人工言語活動!言カツ!始まります!!
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3113
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by sangi39 » Tue 24 Jul 2018, 01:41

I guess kind of:

Welsh: car, meaning "car", from Proto-Celtic *karros, "wagon", from PIE *ḱr̥sós, "vehicle"
English: car, from Anglo-Norman carre, from Latin carrus, "four wheeled wagon", from Gaulish karros, from Proto-Celtic *karros, "wagon".

It seems the Welsh word car just meant "wagon", but was likely influenced by the almost identical word car in English. It doesn't seem to be a borrowing from English at all.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6190
Joined: Sat 14 Aug 2010, 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by eldin raigmore » Tue 24 Jul 2018, 02:37

They seem, rather, to have come from related Celtic roots. The English “car” took a detour through Latin and a Romance language —— or so it appears.
User avatar
Imralu
greek
greek
Posts: 843
Joined: Sun 17 Nov 2013, 22:32

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Imralu » Tue 24 Jul 2018, 23:45

So car/car belongs in the false cognates thread, not tge surpriding cognates thread.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
________
MY MUSIC
clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2399
Joined: Sun 24 Jun 2012, 06:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by clawgrip » Wed 25 Jul 2018, 00:51

They are not false cognates; according to sangi39's post, they are indeed cognates, from Proto-Celtic *karros. They're surprising cognates in the sense that the direction of borrowing is the opposite of what would be expected, i.e. it was borrowed from Celtic to English rather than English to Welsh. Plus the fact that despite having very different evolutionary paths, they both ended up as "car".
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2722
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Shemtov » Wed 25 Jul 2018, 01:14

clawgrip wrote:
Wed 25 Jul 2018, 00:51
They are not false cognates; according to sangi39's post, they are indeed cognates, from Proto-Celtic *karros. They're surprising cognates in the sense that the direction of borrowing is the opposite of what would be expected, i.e. it was borrowed from Celtic to English rather than English to Welsh. Plus the fact that despite having very different evolutionary paths, they both ended up as "car".
I would like to :eng: and :irl: :sco: Gaelic <cat> though there the path is more complicated; The Gaelic terms are Latin borrowings, and the English is Germanic; It is unclear whether Latin borrowed from PGrm or vice versa. I would have thought that given :esp: <Gato> that the Gaelic words were borrowings from English, with Grimm's law (Though then Cat should be Cath, and HG soundshifts would be /kat/ not /kats/).
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2722
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Shemtov » Wed 25 Jul 2018, 06:30

GrandPiano wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 06:02
Imralu wrote:
Fri 20 Jul 2018, 05:36
k1234567890y wrote:
Thu 19 Jul 2018, 21:02
Chinese and English wheel, it is possible that the Chinese word was ultimately a borrowing from a word for wheel from Indo-European languages
Posts like this would be more interesting if you include the pronunciation.
It’s chē [ʈʂʰɤ˥] in Mandarin.
Oddly, Mandarin borrowed <Car> as kǎ /kʰa˧˩˧/ as in kǎchā /kʰa˧˩˧tʂʰa˥/ "Truck", meaning that we have a Chinese multisyllbic word word made up entierly of IE elements(!).
<Kǎ> with the same Hanzi, also is a borrowing of <Card>. So <Kǎpiàn> /kʰa˧˩˧pʰjan˥˩/ "Identification Card" is Cognate to :eng: <Chart>!
Also, Palestinian :ara: /məwʕid/ "appointment" :isr: /moʊʔeɪd/ "Festival; esp. intermidiate days of Passover and Sukkot". I wouldn't have reliezed this, if not for the fact that a. the Tiberian pronounciation of the :isr: word is /mowʕed/, and b. it is used in the Modern fashion as an extended sense in the Bible for the core meaning of "set time", and the only examples I can think of the core meaning being used are Psalms 104:14 and Lamentations 1:15, (Thus the symantic narrowing by Mishnaic times, which effected Ben Yehudah) and those verses were on my mind when I learnt the :ara: word.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2658
Joined: Sun 11 Jan 2015, 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by GrandPiano » Wed 25 Jul 2018, 19:00

Shemtov wrote:
Wed 25 Jul 2018, 06:30
Oddly, Mandarin borrowed <Car> as kǎ /kʰa˧˩˧/ as in kǎchā /kʰa˧˩˧tʂʰa˥/ "Truck", meaning that we have a Chinese multisyllbic word word made up entierly of IE elements(!).
Huh, I never thought about that. That's pretty neat. (It's chē, not chā, though.)
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2722
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Shemtov » Mon 30 Jul 2018, 20:18

:eng: cantaloupe vs. hen and wolf.
The melon is named after the Italian town of Cantalupo "Singing Wolf", and if you trace the IE roots back, the :eng: Germanic reflexes are Hen Wolf.
Also, I guess :eng: Chant, Hen.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 2960
Joined: Sat 04 Jan 2014, 04:47
Contact:

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 03 Aug 2018, 13:27

Shemtov wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 20:18
:eng: cantaloupe vs. hen and wolf.
The melon is named after the Italian town of Cantalupo "Singing Wolf", and if you trace the IE roots back, the :eng: Germanic reflexes are Hen Wolf.
Also, I guess :eng: Chant, Hen.
I looked up in Wiktionary, and you are right.

both of Chant and Hen are from PIE *keh₂n- "to sing", so hens might originally meant "something that sings" in pre-Proto-Germanic.
私のアツい人工言語活動!言カツ!始まります!!
Post Reply