I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

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Isfendil
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I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Isfendil » Mon 15 Oct 2018, 16:14

Would it be possible for someone to take a fairly long irish text and try their best spell it pseudo phonetically, using the entire latin alphabet? I would like to see irish as it is and even though I'm told the spelling is very systematic its just . . . . So obtuse. I've been spoiled by welsh.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Salmoneus » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 00:32

Isfendil wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 16:14
Would it be possible for someone to take a fairly long irish text and try their best spell it pseudo phonetically, using the entire latin alphabet? I would like to see irish as it is and even though I'm told the spelling is very systematic its just . . . . So obtuse. I've been spoiled by welsh.
You could do it yourself, surely? The spelling is very transparent, in general.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Isfendil » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 03:24

Salmoneus wrote:
Tue 16 Oct 2018, 00:32
Isfendil wrote:
Mon 15 Oct 2018, 16:14
Would it be possible for someone to take a fairly long irish text and try their best spell it pseudo phonetically, using the entire latin alphabet? I would like to see irish as it is and even though I'm told the spelling is very systematic its just . . . . So obtuse. I've been spoiled by welsh.
You could do it yourself, surely? The spelling is very transparent, in general.
Sigh, I was serious you know? Please, I'm not of a mind for jokes.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by GrandPiano » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 03:28

I don't think Salmoneus was joking. As you said yourself, the rules of Irish spelling are very systematic, so why can't you create your own phonetic spelling system?
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by DesEsseintes » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 04:31

GrandPiano wrote:
Tue 16 Oct 2018, 03:28
I don't think Salmoneus was joking. As you said yourself, the rules of Irish spelling are very systematic, so why can't you create your own phonetic spelling system?
I am of course guessing here, but the reason he is asking might be because creating his own spelling would require quite a lot of time and effort that isfendil cannot afford at the moment and therefore asked for help? Someone who actually knows Irish and understands how the spelling works can probably do what he’s asking in minutes.

Having said that, I don’t know Irish so I could be wrong.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Isfendil » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 04:41

DesEsseintes wrote:
Tue 16 Oct 2018, 04:31
GrandPiano wrote:
Tue 16 Oct 2018, 03:28
I don't think Salmoneus was joking. As you said yourself, the rules of Irish spelling are very systematic, so why can't you create your own phonetic spelling system?
I am of course guessing here, but the reason he is asking might be because creating his own spelling would require quite a lot of time and effort that isfendil cannot afford at the moment and therefore asked for help? Someone who actually knows Irish and understands how the spelling works can probably do what he’s asking in minutes.

Having said that, I don’t know Irish so I could be wrong.
Exactly. The rules are systematic but there are so many of them and I have reading comprehension issues, so it would take me even longer to learn them all, not to mention I have no idea where to start because I have tried to teach myself both this and other, far easier things and have failed every time right up until I was formally taught in a classroom setting or similar. I don't exactly have the time, space in my program, or money for an irish class, so I was hoping to get some help from experts. To be honest though, at this point I am considering working with the few IPA transcriptions of irish there are on the web, even though they've only mystified the writing system even more for me.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Ahzoh » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 07:00

I mean even if you stick to the rule of broad to broad and slender to slender, it's still hard to tell which of two or three vowels actually gets pronounced.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Salmoneus » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 12:01

Ahzoh wrote:
Tue 16 Oct 2018, 07:00
I mean even if you stick to the rule of broad to broad and slender to slender, it's still hard to tell which of two or three vowels actually gets pronounced.
Not really. At first sight, sure, but in a case like this all Isfendil needs to do is have a text on one hand and a chart of the dozen different vowel spellings and their phonetics, and copy across. So when he sees, say, uai, he writes /a/, and makes the previous consonant broad and the following one slender.

Since he's just trying to get a feel for the language, he doesn't even need to worry about exceptions. Like, oi is /E/ - if he were actually learning Irish he'd need to also remember that it's actually /O/ before certain clusters, but since he's just getting a feel for the language he can ignore that complication, making the process very easy.

It's time-consuming for anyone to transcribe a lengthy block of text, of course, but it's hardly good form to say "look, here's this thing you can do at most slightly better than I can, but I can't be arsed because I've got more important things to do, so do it for me, OK?"
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Davush » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 12:52

Yes Irish is quite transparent overall, although there are a few ambiguous cases like <oi> which Salmoneus mentioned. I would be willing to IPA-ise an Irish text, although I am only familiar with Munster Irish. The three main dialect groups (Ulster, Connemara, Munster) do have quite a few differences. There is something to be said for Irish spelling as it is, however, as it allows the three dialect groups to share a common written language which reflects morpho-phonological processes, although some of the newer Caighdeán spellings obscure them. Also important to note that there is some resistance to the 'Standard' by Gaeltacht native speakers, as with all standards it is an artificial imposition.

I.e. the sequence <ao> can be /ˠeː ˠiː ˠɯː/ depending on dialect.

Some other sequences like <ai> can be ambiguous depending on dialect as well, i.e. in the Munster Irish I am familiar with <bainim> is /bˠinʲimʲ/ not /bˠanʲimʲ/.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Ahzoh » Tue 16 Oct 2018, 14:25

Well I also know that <aoi> like in Caoimhin is a velarized /ii/. Actually now that I think about it I could see how <ao> becomes a velarized /ii/ if the blackness of the /o/ shifted to the consonant and /a/ would have become a schwa and get deleted.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Davush » Wed 17 Oct 2018, 14:23

I am using the Our Father as an example for Isfendil with notes.

This is the text in the 'standard' spelling, but note that it doesn't quite match up to the Munster pronunciation which I am describing, so I've noted discrepancies.

Text:
Ár n-Athair atá ar neamh,
Go naofar d'ainim,
Go dtagfadh do ríocht,
Go ndéantar do thoil ar an talamh
mar a dhéantar ar neamh.
Ár n-arán laethúil tabhair dúinn inniu,
agus maith dúinn ár bhfiacha
mar a mhaithimidne dár bhféichiúna féin
Ach ná lig sinn i gcathú,
ach saor sinn ó olc


IPA:

(I've only explicitly marked velarised/broad consonants before /i iː eː ɛ/, otherwise assume they are velarised. Palatalised /s/ is aways realised as /ʃ/. Palatalised <dh> is usually /j/ or maybe /ʝ/ for some speakers.)

/ɑːr nahərʲ ətaː ɛrʲ nʲav/
/gə nˠeːfər danʲəmʲ/
/gə dagəgʲ* də rʲiːəxt/
/gə nʲiːəntər də hɔlʲ ɛrʲ ə daləv*/
/mɑr ə jiːəntər ɛrʲ nʲav/
/ɑːr nərɑːn lˠeːhuːlʲ tuːrʲ duːnʲ ənʲʊv*/
/agəs mah duːnʲ ɑːr vʲiːəxə/
/mar ə vɑhɪmʲiːdʲ nʲə dɑːr vʲeːxʲuːnə heːnʲ/
/ax nɑː lʲɪgʲ ʃɪnʲ ɪ gəhiːv*/
/ax sˠeːr ʃɪnʲ oːn* ɔlk/

*Munster has <dtagfadh> it as if spelt <dtagfaidh>.
*Munster has ellipsis after <ar an>, i.e. <ar an dtalamh> /ɛrʲ ə daləv/. The /n/ of <an> is elided.
*<inniu> pronounced as if <inniubh> in Munster.
*Muster maintains the dative <gcathaíbh> which is mostly not used in other dialects.
*Munster has <ón> instead of <ó>

Notes:
Although the spelling is quite transparent, there is quite a lot of variation in the outcomes across the dialects. I don't think it is as easy to predict the pronunciation from the orthography as Salmoneus says because there are quite a few rules which depend on the morphology and/or plain irregularities so you would have to have some knowledge of the language first. This *might* be different for the Caighdeán, but I am not qualified to comment on it. Plus I think it is more illuminating to use pronunciations and forms actual native speakers would use.

Munster Irish always stresses the long vowel. The sequences <ao eo> are long /ˠeː ʲoː/, even though they do not have an acute accent, they are long. Unstressed short vowels reduce to /ə/ but consonant remains slender/broad, athair /ahərʲ/ with slender /r/ because of preceding <i>.

<éa> is usually /iːə/ in Munster, and /eː/ or /eːə/ elsewhere.

The other two dialects always stress the first syllable, and may or may not reduce long vowels.

/eː iː/ followed by a broad consonant may insert a short glide, i.e. <ríocht> /rʲiːəxt/ or /rʲiːxt/.

The preposition <ar> is always /ɛrʲ/, this is just an irregularity.

<mh> in particular has quite a lot of outcomes across the dialects. In Munster it's generally /v/ at the end of a word, i.e. talamh /daləv/, but /uː/ in other dialects, i.e. /taluː/ in Ulster.

In the middle of a word, it produces a nasalised vowel for some speakers i.e. <comhairle> /ko~ːrʲlʲə/
Sequences like <abha> <amha> can have quite unpredictable outcomes as well, i.e. <tabhair> is /tuːrʲ/ in Munster. Not sure about other dialects.

Word final slender <-idh -igh> are fortified to /əgʲ/ in Munster. They may be silent elsewhere. I.e. <tigh> is /tʲɪgʲ/ in Munster, but /tʲiː/ or similar in other dialects.

Basically <mh bh dh gh> present the most unpredictability across dialects, especially when between vowels. <amhrán> /av.ráːn/ in Munster but might be /awrən/ in Ulster. Final -ugh in Munster is often /ʊv/. <tiugh> /tʲʊv/.

Broad <dh gh> are /ɣ/. <dhó> /ɣoː/

/tʲ dʲ/ may be fully affricated in Ulster to /tʃ dʒ/.

Final <-aith> is /ah/ in Munster, although final <-th> may often be silent. It is /ai/ in Ulster.

<f> in certain verb forms is /h/ or silent. The aspirated form <fh> is also always silent e.g. an fhuinneog /ənˠ ɪnʲoːg/

<féin> is usually /heːnʲ/ in Munster regardless, but can be /fʲeːnʲ/ as well.

<h th> /h/ are never palatalised in Munster.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by sangi39 » Wed 17 Oct 2018, 20:15

To a point, might this end up looking a bit like Manx, especially since you've been spoilt by Welsh?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Shemtov » Fri 19 Oct 2018, 16:03

Davush wrote:
Tue 16 Oct 2018, 12:52
Yes Irish is quite transparent overall, although there are a few ambiguous cases like <oi> which Salmoneus mentioned. I would be willing to IPA-ise an Irish text, although I am only familiar with Munster Irish. The three main dialect groups (Ulster, Connemara, Munster) do have quite a few differences. There is something to be said for Irish spelling as it is, however, as it allows the three dialect groups to share a common written language which reflects morpho-phonological processes, although some of the newer Caighdeán spellings obscure them. Also important to note that there is some resistance to the 'Standard' by Gaeltacht native speakers, as with all standards it is an artificial imposition.

I.e. the sequence <ao> can be /ˠeː ˠiː ˠɯː/ depending on dialect.

Some other sequences like <ai> can be ambiguous depending on dialect as well, i.e. in the Munster Irish I am familiar with <bainim> is /bˠinʲimʲ/ not /bˠanʲimʲ/.
People were making fun of Welsh spelling on a non-linguistic forum I belong too, so I said that they should be looking at Irish, and I did a non-IPA transcription (like Manx) from an IPA transcription from a book about Celtic Languages, and apparently, the book was using a dialect (IIRC, Ulster), as Irishpeople who only know An Caighdeán told me I was "wrong".
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Salmoneus » Fri 19 Oct 2018, 20:09

There are only dialects - the Caighdeán is officially only a standardised spelling, not a standardised pronunciation or grammar. Although of course I imagine that it practice is does shape the pronunciations of many speakers, particularly as regards the elimination of local anomalies.



Davush: oh, now I'm jealous. May I ask, which Munster do you speak (/know)? I've been told there are substantial differences between Ring, Muskerry and Dingle.

When you say /ta:/, was that just a typo for the back vowel you use elsewhere, or do you actually front it there for some reason?

I'm probably going to be nagging you with questions now...

[ok, I can't wait. Feel free to ignore my annoying sasanach questions, but...
- final nn to /N/ - when does that happen? I notice for instance that you don't do it in dúinn...
- in my naive, terrible attempts to pronounce Irish, I generally use the Ring /ɒː/ for á, at least after broad consonants (partly for simplicity and my inability to tell different varieties of /a/ apart, and partly because it's what I've always heard (most of the spoken Irish I've heard has been in and around Waterford)). How weird would that sound outside of Ring?
- Munster diphthongisation before coda double nasals: is there a chart or somewhere, or something?
- how ghastly is it when somebody's dialect doesn't match the dialectical standards? If, for example, I use the Munster stress shift but forget to diphthongise some lengthened vowels, or use too many analytic verb forms, or over-slenderise a coronal stop like someone from Connemara, will people scream?
- sorry to ambush you...]




Anyway, there are of course a nightmarish array of irregularities an complications in Irish spelling, I'm well aware. But my point was that Isfendil's quest to 'get a sense of' how the language sounded didn't actually require them to learn that, for instance, ar is written with the wrong vowel, or that Munster strenghtens final -igh, or that outside Munster 'ao' is /i:/ except in derivatives of the word aon. They need to know that to learn the language, but such word-level complications don't really change the overall feel of the phonological system. [though admittedly the Munster stress shift does]
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Davush » Sat 20 Oct 2018, 11:39

I should clarify I’m not a native speaker, just an enthusiastic learner who has used Munster Irish as a base. I’ve actually spent more time in Donegal gaeltachts though. I’ve mostly used resources on West Muskerry Irish - two good books are West Muskerry Irish and Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne.

The /a:/ for atá was a typo indeed, it should be backed.

Nn as /N/ is the general rule I think I.e. fuinneog /fIN_jo:g/. I didn’t include the /n N/ distinction in my transcription.

Munster dipthongization is along these lines:

Ann /aun/
Am /aum/
Tinn /t_jaiN_j/
Poll /poul/


I’ll double check what Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne says for you when I get a chance.

I wouldn’t be too worried about not sticking 100% to all dialectal rules, we are learners after all! But then don’t take what I say as definitive. From people I’ve spoken too it’s more just resistance of the Standard especially as learnt in the Gaelscoileanna
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Re: I'd Like to See Phonetic Irish

Post by Salmoneus » Sat 20 Oct 2018, 13:31

Davush wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 11:39
I should clarify I’m not a native speaker, just an enthusiastic learner who has used Munster Irish as a base. I’ve actually spent more time in Donegal gaeltachts though. I’ve mostly used resources on West Muskerry Irish - two good books are West Muskerry Irish and Gaeilge Chorca Dhuibhne.
Ah, OK.

Nn as /N/ is the general rule I think I.e. fuinneog /fIN_jo:g/. I didn’t include the /n N/ distinction in my transcription.
I realised the ambiguity after I'd posted: by /N/ I mean sampa /N/, i.e. /ŋ/, not the /N/ of some transcriptions of Irish, i.e. the fortis nasal. Is the latter what you meant?
Munster dipthongization is along these lines:

Ann /aun/
Am /aum/
Tinn /t_jaiN_j/
Poll /poul/
Thanks!
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