(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Lambuzhao
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 00:10

LinguistCat wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 08:00
GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 05:28
LinguistCat wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 02:48
Is there a way to find words that were known to exist in Classical/Old Japanese through texts, but don't have descendants in the modern language? Or other older languages?
Are you asking if there’s a place where you can look up the meanings of such words, or if there’s a list of such words?
I was hoping there is a list (even a partial one) somewhere, since for the most part, if i know the word is attested I can probably find out the meaning. But I do need to know the word exists, which I can't do by looking at the modern language and going backward. I'd even take words that have changed meanings drastically over time, but with work I can track those down myself.
Search 'hapax legomenon' + 'Old Japanese'.

Among other things, I found this doing so, which, if it isn't what you want, may point you to more of what you're agschully looking for:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Eoqv_ ... se&f=false

hapax legomenon is great, super useful little phrase.
:wat:
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Tristan Radicz » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 03:58

Does anybody know whether a Phoenician word for "cat" is attested somewhere (given the paucity of the sources, I suppose not)?
Last edited by Tristan Radicz on Sun 21 Oct 2018, 04:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguistCat » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 03:58

Lambuzhao wrote:
Sun 21 Oct 2018, 00:10
LinguistCat wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 08:00
GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 05:28
LinguistCat wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 02:48
Is there a way to find words that were known to exist in Classical/Old Japanese through texts, but don't have descendants in the modern language? Or other older languages?
Are you asking if there’s a place where you can look up the meanings of such words, or if there’s a list of such words?
I was hoping there is a list (even a partial one) somewhere, since for the most part, if i know the word is attested I can probably find out the meaning. But I do need to know the word exists, which I can't do by looking at the modern language and going backward. I'd even take words that have changed meanings drastically over time, but with work I can track those down myself.
Search 'hapax legomenon' + 'Old Japanese'.

Among other things, I found this doing so, which, if it isn't what you want, may point you to more of what you're agschully looking for:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Eoqv_ ... se&f=false

hapax legomenon is great, super useful little phrase.
:wat:
Thanks, that is super useful. Will check it out more later.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 16:32

I'm working on a conlang, but I need some natlang examples for a certain feature.

I plan on have palatals, particularly the /ɲ/, occurring in the coda position. Honestly, I have a hard time pronouncing it when it follows an onset consonant. Do you have any natlang recordings of such a thing being spoken? While I don't know if I will have it occurring in the coda position, I'd also like audio examples of /c/ in the coda or word final position, as well.

Thanks!
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 17:03

LinguoFranco wrote:
Sun 21 Oct 2018, 16:32
I plan on have palatals, particularly the /ɲ/, occurring in the coda position. Honestly, I have a hard time pronouncing it when it follows an onset consonant.
When would a coda consonant follow an onset consonant? Unless you're talking about coda /ɲ/ following an onset consonant with a vowel in between them?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 18:07

LinguoFranco wrote:
Sun 21 Oct 2018, 16:32
I'm working on a conlang, but I need some natlang examples for a certain feature.

I plan on have palatals, particularly the /ɲ/, occurring in the coda position. Honestly, I have a hard time pronouncing it when it follows an onset consonant. Do you have any natlang recordings of such a thing being spoken? While I don't know if I will have it occurring in the coda position, I'd also like audio examples of /c/ in the coda or word final position, as well.

Thanks!
I don't have any recordings for you but you can look into Slavic languages for some samples. Polish has final /ɲ/ and alveolopalatals, for example. German has final /ç/. Not sure about a language with final /c/ but I have no trouble at all pronouncing it.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 18:15

LinguistCat wrote:
Sun 21 Oct 2018, 03:58
Lambuzhao wrote:
Sun 21 Oct 2018, 00:10
LinguistCat wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 08:00
GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 05:28
LinguistCat wrote:
Sat 20 Oct 2018, 02:48
Is there a way to find words that were known to exist in Classical/Old Japanese through texts, but don't have descendants in the modern language? Or other older languages?
Are you asking if there’s a place where you can look up the meanings of such words, or if there’s a list of such words?
I was hoping there is a list (even a partial one) somewhere, since for the most part, if i know the word is attested I can probably find out the meaning. But I do need to know the word exists, which I can't do by looking at the modern language and going backward. I'd even take words that have changed meanings drastically over time, but with work I can track those down myself.
Search 'hapax legomenon' + 'Old Japanese'.

Among other things, I found this doing so, which, if it isn't what you want, may point you to more of what you're agschully looking for:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Eoqv_ ... se&f=false

hapax legomenon is great, super useful little phrase.
:wat:
Thanks, that is super useful. Will check it out more later.
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Tristan Radicz
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Tristan Radicz » Sun 21 Oct 2018, 18:25

LinguoFranco wrote:
Sun 21 Oct 2018, 16:32
I'm working on a conlang, but I need some natlang examples for a certain feature.

I plan on have palatals, particularly the /ɲ/, occurring in the coda position. Honestly, I have a hard time pronouncing it when it follows an onset consonant. Do you have any natlang recordings of such a thing being spoken? While I don't know if I will have it occurring in the coda position, I'd also like audio examples of /c/ in the coda or word final position, as well.

Thanks!
https://forvo.com/word/%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8C/
https://forvo.com/search/ba%C5%9B%C5%84/
https://forvo.com/word/%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0% ... %D1%8C/#ru

If I understand you correctly.

Doesn't really work with non-sibilant consonants, though (it's not impossible to pronounce, but it's... not very convenient).
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nortaneous » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 14:46

It's common for coda palatals to be realized with a palatal onglide in languages that have them.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 15:12

Nortaneous wrote:
Tue 23 Oct 2018, 14:46
It's common for coda palatals to be realized with a palatal onglide in languages that have them.
...and/or be preceded by a front vowel anyway.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 16:12

I have an Irish roleplay character named Séan Caoimhe Ó Muireadhaigh, which I note the pronunciation as ['ʃeːnˠ ˈkiːvʲə oː ˈmˠurʲʌɣʌi] for. However, I'm pretty sure my pronunciation of Muireadhaigh is incorrect because I cobbled it together form these sites while applying Irish's vowel rule (<a>, <o>, and <u> are broad while <e> and <i> are slender) to it, when—perhaps—I should have used this one either alone or in combination with the second one without the rule. Thus, what's Muireadhaigh's correct phonetic transcription?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » Tue 23 Oct 2018, 18:12

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Tue 23 Oct 2018, 16:12
I have an Irish roleplay character named Séan Caoimhe Ó Muireadhaigh, which I note the pronunciation as ['ʃeːnˠ ˈkiːvʲə oː ˈmˠurʲʌɣʌi] for. However, I'm pretty sure my pronunciation of Muireadhaigh is incorrect because I cobbled it together form these sites while applying Irish's vowel rule (<a>, <o>, and <u> are broad while <e> and <i> are slender) to it, when—perhaps—I should have used this one either alone or in combination with the second one without the rule. Thus, what's Muireadhaigh's correct phonetic transcription?
I tend to use Wikipedia's description which is based on the Connacht dialect. Going by that, I get ['ʃeːnˠ ˈkiːvʲə oː ˈmˠɪrʲəij] (which could then explain why it's anglicised as "Murray"). It probably does depend a lot on the dialect though, so it might be something like [ˈmˠurʲʌɣʌi] in some dialect or another.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » Wed 31 Oct 2018, 02:23

Does anybody know of a good, free online source for Farsi (including Tajik and Dari) grammar, especially the morphology?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco » Wed 31 Oct 2018, 06:05

Nortaneous wrote:
Tue 23 Oct 2018, 14:46
It's common for coda palatals to be realized with a palatal onglide in languages that have them.
Could you elaborate further, please?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by jimydog000 » Wed 31 Oct 2018, 17:11

LinguoFranco wrote:
Wed 31 Oct 2018, 06:05
Nortaneous wrote:
Tue 23 Oct 2018, 14:46
It's common for coda palatals to be realized with a palatal onglide in languages that have them.
Could you elaborate further, please?
"(IPA [j]) glide, that either precedes (an on-glide) or follows (an off-glide) the main vowel."
So in this case [Vɲ#] -> [Vjɲ#]. Correct me if I'm wrong.
And Wikipedia says: "...especially a non-front vowel".
Pretty interesting.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Vlürch » Thu 01 Nov 2018, 22:25

Shemtov wrote:
Wed 31 Oct 2018, 02:23
Does anybody know of a good, free online source for Farsi (including Tajik and Dari) grammar, especially the morphology?
You probably already know this site. Here's a pdf about Persian grammar, but it's apparently just a sketch and is missing a lot of stuff. Another pdf, specifically for Dari. This site has lessons for standard Persian. As for morphology in particular, I'm still not 100% sure what that even means, so I can't really help. And of course, I haven't gone through all of the stuff I just linked (even though it's not that much) so it could be that they're totally unhelpful; my own level in Persian is so low, a literal newborn's level (if that), that I still find general grammar guides useful. [:P]

So, I'd also be interested if anyone has any more, especially something with huge tables; I just love huge tables... [xD]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » Fri 02 Nov 2018, 01:12

Vlürch wrote:
Thu 01 Nov 2018, 22:25
Shemtov wrote:
Wed 31 Oct 2018, 02:23
Does anybody know of a good, free online source for Farsi (including Tajik and Dari) grammar, especially the morphology?
You probably already know this site. Here's a pdf about Persian grammar, but it's apparently just a sketch and is missing a lot of stuff. Another pdf, specifically for Dari. This site has lessons for standard Persian. As for morphology in particular, I'm still not 100% sure what that even means, so I can't really help. And of course, I haven't gone through all of the stuff I just linked (even though it's not that much) so it could be that they're totally unhelpful; my own level in Persian is so low, a literal newborn's level (if that), that I still find general grammar guides useful. [:P]

So, I'd also be interested if anyone has any more, especially something with huge tables; I just love huge tables... [xD]
I'm doing a research project on Farsi for Morphology. I'm writing specifically about the (Tense)-Aspect-Mood system. We're actually supposed to focus on one dialect, I am doing Standard Iranian. I found a pirated version of Routledge's Iranian Languages and this pdf
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » Tue 13 Nov 2018, 01:53

How did “rather than” come to mean “instead of” rather than “sooner than”?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 13 Nov 2018, 02:03

I just discovered today that German has a very unproductive progressive passive that I would really like to see expanded. You nominalize the verb by taking the stem and attaching a schwa. The resulting noun is of feminine gender and gets a definite determiner inside a locational copula construction, where the subject is the figure and the nominalized verb is the ground. I only know of one good example actually, but it is fun to think of other imaginary examples. Here is the good example:

Es ist in der Mach-e.
3SG.N.NOM COP.3SG.PRS.IND in DEF.SG.F.DAT make-NMLZ.F
'It is being produced/made.'

Here is a bad example (because this construction does not combine with this verb):

*Ich bin in der Haue.
1SG.NOM COP.1SG.PRS.IND in DEF.SG.F.DAT hit-NMLZ.F
'I am being hit.'

Other similarly restricted tense/voice forms include German going-to future. This one is used for immediate future. In some varieties it does not entail a change of place anymore, i.e. you can say Ich geh Zähne putzen. if you are already in the bathroom at the sink. I think it does not work with all verbs. Here are some examples.

Ich geh schlaf-en.
1SG.NOM go.1SG.PRS.IND sleep-INF
'I am going to sleep.'

Ich geh Zähne putzen.
1SG.NOM go.1SG.PRS.IND tooth.PL clean-INF
'I am going to brush my teeth.'

Ich geh einkaufen.
1SG.NOM go.1SG.PRS.IND buy_grocery-INF
'I am going to buy groceries.'

And the more well known am-progressiv, which at least in my variety only works with bare objects. Definite articles make the example sound bad.

Ich bin am Tee trink-en.
1SG.NOM COP.1SG.PRS.IND at.DEF.SG.N.DAT tea drink-INF
'I am drinking tea.'

Ich bin am den Tee trink-en.
1SG.NOM COP.1SG.PRS.IND at.DEF.SG.N.DAT DEF.SG.M.ACC tea drink-INF
'I am drinking the tea.'



Interestingly, all three of these have some locational construction as their source. Do you know of any minor tense, aspect or voice constructions in other natlangs?

eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 13 Nov 2018, 01:53
How did “rather than” come to mean “instead of” rather than “sooner than”?
It might be a more general Germanic thing. German uses 'eher' in similar contexts.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 13 Nov 2018, 02:20

Creyeditor wrote:
Tue 13 Nov 2018, 02:03
eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 13 Nov 2018, 01:53
How did “rather than” come to mean “instead of” rather than “sooner than”?
It might be a more general Germanic thing. German uses 'eher' in similar contexts.
"I'd sooner (do) X than (do) Y" > "I'd prefer (doing) X over (doing) Y" doesn't seem like a huge stretch to me. I've heard people say things along the lines of "I'd sooner (do) X than (do) Y" in modern English, with "X" usually being something hyperbolic like "eat my hat", to express how little they'd like to do "Y".
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