(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Sat 30 Dec 2017, 19:19

eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 26 Dec 2017, 23:20
Omzinesý wrote:
Wed 27 Dec 2017, 10:42
eldin raigmore wrote:
Tue 26 Dec 2017, 23:20
Which natlangs use subject-verb inversion in dubitative, and/or hypothetical, and/or protatic conditional, and/or subjunctive, clauses?

(I know that: Several use subject-verb inversion in interrogatives. That isn't what I'm asking about, though.)
I think somebody once linked here a paper on a language where inversion is the only means for marking subordination.
I'd love to see it! Do you have any idea what it was, or how I could find? Thanks!
I'm sorry I cannot find it.
Zekoslav wrote:
Sat 30 Dec 2017, 12:38
The Wikipedia article on Pali has a detailed account of consonant cluster simplification. There is also this article https://www.academia.edu/379001/Syllabl ... do-Iranian on Indo-Iranian syllable structure in general. I know it's not exactly what you asked for, but I haven't found any other resource on the topic.
That's a start. Thank you!
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 10:12

Does anyone know of a resource that lists all of the verbs for a language with a closed class of verbs? I've seen references to several languages that do indeed have a closed class of verbs, but as of yet, I haven't been able to find a list of those verbs. While not indispensable, it'd be nice to see an example of just how many (and what variety) of verbs exist in these types of languages.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » Tue 02 Jan 2018, 23:30

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Tue 02 Jan 2018, 10:12
Does anyone know of a resource that lists all of the verbs for a language with a closed class of verbs? I've seen references to several languages that do indeed have a closed class of verbs, but as of yet, I haven't been able to find a list of those verbs. While not indispensable, it'd be nice to see an example of just how many (and what variety) of verbs exist in these types of languages.
If you know the names of several such languages -- or, maybe even, just one -- wouldn't you be able to find such a reference by googling (or something)?

Some Oceanic or Australian language's only lexical(?*) verbs are "come" and "go" and "say".
It was discussed either here or on the ZBB or on Vreleksa.
You might search for posts made by me that contain "come" and "go" and "say" and "stay".
(That approach won't find such a discussion here on the CBB. The post I remember making must have been on one of those other phpBBoards.)

Does Korean have a closed class of lexical(?*) verbs? If so, it might be a biggish class; it might be up to 33% of all verbs (the other 67% being "lightverb+contentword" combinations.)

Some natlanguage discussed either here or on the ZBB or on Vreleksa has just 12 lexical(?*) verbs.
Edit: See: (I don't guarantee that each of these has what you want, but I bet at least one does):
this book
this pdf
this book



Edit: *{edit2}I may have used the wrong word here. I mean single words that act, morphosyntactically, like we expect "verbs" to act. They aren't verbal auxiliary-words (I think), but they may be light verbs.{/edit2}
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 01:08

I did find this thread: http://www.aveneca.com/cbb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3633

Which mentions both Kalam and Kobon, with an interesting example from the former. I will take a look at your links when I get home from work tonight!
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 05:48

Basque is usually described as having a closed class of verbs.i don't know the details, though.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 18:36

Pabappa wrote:
Wed 03 Jan 2018, 05:48
Basque is usually described as having a closed class of verbs.i don't know the details, though.
IIRC, it's because only a handful of verbs can be conjugated synthetically for things like person, number, and tense (I've not found a full list, but it's maybe a dozen or two), while the rest of verbs appear only in non-finite forms like participles and verbal nouns, requiring the use of an auxiliary verb to mark person.

I'm not sure "closed class" is the best description for it, it's just that any new verbs entering Basque conjugate periphrastically rather than synthetically.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by loglorn » Wed 03 Jan 2018, 21:51

sangi39 wrote:
Wed 03 Jan 2018, 18:36
Pabappa wrote:
Wed 03 Jan 2018, 05:48
Basque is usually described as having a closed class of verbs.i don't know the details, though.
IIRC, it's because only a handful of verbs can be conjugated synthetically for things like person, number, and tense (I've not found a full list, but it's maybe a dozen or two), while the rest of verbs appear only in non-finite forms like participles and verbal nouns, requiring the use of an auxiliary verb to mark person.

I'm not sure "closed class" is the best description for it, it's just that any new verbs entering Basque conjugate periphrastically rather than synthetically.
Well, you could analyze Basque as having two verb-y POS's with different characteristics, one of them conjugates synthetically for all the stuff while the other requires periphrastic constructions. If no new verbs entering the language can conjugate synthetically, one of those verb-y POS's sure is closed class. The same case can be made for Korean. In Japanese new verbs that conjugate themselves rather than through -suru do enter the language, although it's very difficult, so i'd say the class hasn't quite closed yet.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Thu 04 Jan 2018, 12:58

How are these " " and ' ' used?

I've learnt the standard: "word" and 'its meaning', like "al-kaatib" means 'the scribe'.
But sometimes I see them used vice versa.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Thu 04 Jan 2018, 14:11

They indicate direct speech. In general usage they are interchangeable, and personally I use them somewhat randomly. The only relatively universal rule is that the symbols alternate to show quote nesting: "he said 'burble' a lot", or 'he said "burble" a lot'. Traditionally, Americans and Canadians use double quotes in the first instance and single quotes for quote-within-quotes, while everyone else does the opposite.

However, given our exposure to American written English, it's increasingly common for us to follow the American customs.

There may of course be some jargon use of quotations in various different fields.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 04 Jan 2018, 14:55

Salmoneus wrote:
Thu 04 Jan 2018, 14:11
They indicate direct speech. In general usage they are interchangeable, and personally I use them somewhat randomly. The only relatively universal rule is that the symbols alternate to show quote nesting: "he said 'burble' a lot", or 'he said "burble" a lot'. Traditionally, Americans and Canadians use double quotes in the first instance and single quotes for quote-within-quotes, while everyone else does the opposite.

However, given our exposure to American written English, it's increasingly common for us to follow the American customs.

There may of course be some jargon use of quotations in various different fields.
German does the same, double quotes are on the outside and single quotes are on the inside. The only difference is that German quotes at the beginning are inverted.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gach » Thu 04 Jan 2018, 15:08

The Finnish standard is also to default to the double quotes and for some reason that's beyond me to use the left curving ones as both the opening and closing quotes.

The only guide I can give is to follow house style whenever that's imposed on you and otherwise do whatever looks best. If you are using different quotes for both in-language examples and translations, it's pretty self evident which ones stand for which and you may not even have to spell out your convention. Though, my own preference for maximising the difference between examples and their translations is to use emphasised text (italic or bold) for the examples and quotes for the translations.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by esoanem » Thu 04 Jan 2018, 16:56

Omzinesý wrote:
Thu 04 Jan 2018, 12:58
How are these " " and ' ' used?

I've learnt the standard: "word" and 'its meaning', like "al-kaatib" means 'the scribe'.
But sometimes I see them used vice versa.
(I'm from the UK)

I was taught to use " " for direct speech, quotations, etc and wasn't really taught any rules for ' '. I use ' ' for quotes within quotes and also to mean so-called or as scarequotes.
My pronouns are they/them/their

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ser » Thu 04 Jan 2018, 17:37

Omzinesý wrote:
Thu 04 Jan 2018, 12:58
How are these " " and ' ' used?

I've learnt the standard: "word" and 'its meaning', like "al-kaatib" means 'the scribe'.
But sometimes I see them used vice versa.
In linguistics, there is certainly some convention of using italics (or, less commonly, “stylized double quotes”) for a word in a foreign language and ‘stylized single quotes’ for the gloss or meaning, yes. I can't say I've seen the opposite much.

On online forums and Wikipedia you'll see all sorts of things though, including the use of parentheses and double quotes for the meaning, like this: anaranjado ("orange").
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Fri 05 Jan 2018, 13:47

Thank you all!
Now I know I haven't done things wrong at least.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Fri 05 Jan 2018, 13:49

Is Japanese wa-marked topic always fixed in the position of the first constituent in a clause?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » Sat 06 Jan 2018, 01:01

It has to appear first, before any elements of the comment. Colloquially, it can also appear at the end of the sentence, as can any argument.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » Sat 06 Jan 2018, 02:33

clawgrip wrote:
Sat 06 Jan 2018, 01:01
Colloquially, it can also appear at the end of the sentence, as can any argument.
Do you know when this is used? I first noticed this in a song I was listening to not too long ago and was really confused by it.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » Sun 07 Jan 2018, 03:33

On the one hand, it can be a way to add information to clarify a sentence that was ended prematurely, but it can also shift focus to the comment, in a way.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Axiem » Sun 07 Jan 2018, 06:17

I've heard/seen it used the same way you might tag additional information onto a sentence in English:

"Hey you read the book, right? That one I lent you?"

If I were translating this to Japanese (and remembered enough to actually do so), the "one-I-lent-you" bit would be a wa-marked topic.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 07 Jan 2018, 19:47

Thanks for the info! It seems pretty intuitive.
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