(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 12 May 2018, 20:40

I think Lao Kou is joking/being hyperbolic.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lao Kou » Sun 13 May 2018, 01:21

shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 12 May 2018, 20:40
I think Lao Kou is joking/being hyperbolic.
Thank you. I was going for exaggeration ad absurdum.

That said, our Tanti seemed to be perennially in her 90s, from the time I was a toddler until my teenage years. Always clad in a black shroud.

To hear my father tell it, many years later, she told him that she fell down a well as a child, and from then on she began to "see things" -- for her, the "gift" of prognostication.

To hear my mother tell it, poor little WASP from Wellesley, it weirded her out when relatives from my father's side and the old country came for a visit. There'd be Tanti, throwing some chicken bones on the floor and predicting the future (which later came true).
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist » Mon 14 May 2018, 20:56

Lao Kou wrote:
Sun 13 May 2018, 01:21
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 12 May 2018, 20:40
I think Lao Kou is joking/being hyperbolic.
Thank you. I was going for exaggeration ad absurdum.

That said, our Tanti seemed to be perennially in her 90s, from the time I was a toddler until my teenage years. Always clad in a black shroud.

To hear my father tell it, many years later, she told him that she fell down a well as a child, and from then on she began to "see things" -- for her, the "gift" of prognostication.

To hear my mother tell it, poor little WASP from Wellesley, it weirded her out when relatives from my father's side and the old country came for a visit. There'd be Tanti, throwing some chicken bones on the floor and predicting the future (which later came true).
Ah, that's more like it. :)

Cool story about your Tanti BTW.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » Tue 15 May 2018, 01:53

Lao Kou wrote:
Sun 13 May 2018, 01:21
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 12 May 2018, 20:40
I think Lao Kou is joking/being hyperbolic.
Thank you. I was going for exaggeration ad absurdum.

That said, our Tanti seemed to be perennially in her 90s, from the time I was a toddler until my teenage years. Always clad in a black shroud.

To hear my father tell it, many years later, she told him that she fell down a well as a child, and from then on she began to "see things" -- for her, the "gift" of prognostication.

To hear my mother tell it, poor little WASP from Wellesley, it weirded her out when relatives from my father's side and the old country came for a visit. There'd be Tanti, throwing some chicken bones on the floor and predicting the future (which later came true).
Ah sure, ancient grandmothers, aunties, tanties, mga lola apoy, once they reach about 60 or 65 simply turn into 90-something and remain that way for the next century or so. There's something magic in the black veils and dresses. Well known fact. Plus they can carry faggots and shovel coals faster than John O. Henry himself!

Auntie Quhanstable at 60:
Spoiler:
Image
Auntie Quhanstable at 62:
Spoiler:
Image
Auntie Quhanstable at 167:
Spoiler:
Image
Auntie Quhanstable at 146, carrying wood for the breakfast fire:
Spoiler:
Image
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Fri 18 May 2018, 05:49

Can anyone give me an example of a PIE i-stem adjective? I can think of several u-stems: gʷréh₂us, swéh₂dus, ténh₂us, etc. but I can't think of any i-stems. I'm hoping to see an example of the i-stem adjective declension on Wiktionary. Are there even any that have been reconstructed? Other than tréyes, which only appears in the plural, I can't find any examples.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Fri 18 May 2018, 10:32

I'll repeat this question here.

From which forms construct states / possessed cases usually develop?

In Arabic, I think, it's just old cases suffixes, gender suffixes, and such, that have been left when NP-final affixes have been dropped off.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 18 May 2018, 22:03

if i recall correctly In Akkadian (?) it’s just the root consonants w/o any vowels.
I remember wondering whether a three-consonant cluster was ever acceptable in any Semitic language in any other circumstance.

But Hittite is an I-E language.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xonen » Sat 19 May 2018, 22:26

Omzinesý wrote:
Fri 18 May 2018, 10:32
I'll repeat this question here.

From which forms construct states / possessed cases usually develop?
That's a helluv·a question; I can't claim to know the answer to it, but the possibility of adpositions fusing to adjacent nouns springs to mind, at least. Which would be a fairly typical way for cases to develop, except that here, the adposition would be fusing to a different noun from the one it was originally modifying.

Another possibility is different sound changes applying within possessive expressions than in other situations. Theoretically, of course, sound change shouldn't be affected by grammar, but in practice it sometimes is; if a sound is analyzed as having an important grammatical function, it can remain in positions where it would otherwise be lost.

In Arabic, I think, it's just old cases suffixes, gender suffixes, and such, that have been left when NP-final affixes have been dropped off.
AFAIU, it's a bit more complicated than that. In Classical Arabic, the construct state is essentially the same as the definite form of the noun, but without the prefixed article; that is, the -n that usually marks indefinite nouns is dropped. To use Wikipedia's example:

malikatun = 'a queen'
al-malikatu = 'the queen'
malikatu l-baladi = 'the queen of the country'

Arguably, though, the primary marker of the possessive construction is the genitive ending -i on the noun balad, whose nominative would be baladun (idf.) e or al-baladu (def.).

Modern Arabic, of course, has lost (almost) all case endings, so baladun, baladu, baladin, baladi etc. would all become just balad or some such. Feminine nouns also tend to lose the -t-, so malikatun > malika. But curiously enough, this doesn't happen in the construct state (so essentially, the kind of grammatically conditioned sound change I suggested earlier); thus, e.g. in Egyptian Arabic (according to the same Wikipedia article):

malika = 'a queen'
il-malika = 'the queen'
malikt il-balad = 'the queen of the country'


eldin raigmore wrote:
Fri 18 May 2018, 22:03
if i recall correctly In Akkadian (?) it’s just the root consonants w/o any vowels.
Well, according to another Wikipedia article, not quite:

The status constructus [...] typically takes the shortest form of the noun which is phonetically possible.

[...]

Akkadian does not tolerate word final consonant clusters, so nouns like kalbum (dog) and maḫrum (front) would have illegal construct state forms *kalb and *maḫr unless modified. In many of these instances, the first vowel of the word is simply repeated (e.g. kalab, maḫar). This rule, however, does not always hold true, especially in nouns where a short vowel has historically been elided (e.g. šaknum < *šakinum "governor"). In these cases, the lost vowel is restored in the construct state (so šaknum yields šakin).
But Hittite is an I-E language.
[/quote]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 20 May 2018, 06:06

I recently read an essay about the changes in the Queen's speaking over time and it mentioned that formerly the passive voice was preferred, especially in writing, to using the first person except when saying something like "I feel", "I believe" etc. This struck me as particularly interesting as Japanese sometimes uses the passive to express formality. Are there any more specific rules or occurrences of this in English and are there other languages that do this besides English and Japanese?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » Sun 20 May 2018, 14:07

All4Ɇn wrote:
Sun 20 May 2018, 06:06
I recently read an essay about the changes in the Queen's speaking over time and it mentioned that formerly the passive voice was preferred, especially in writing, to using the first person except when saying something like "I feel", "I believe" etc. This struck me as particularly interesting as Japanese sometimes uses the passive to express formality. Are there any more specific rules or occurrences of this in English and are there other languages that do this besides English and Japanese?
In scientific writing, at least about “hard” sciences, it has been recommended to use passive voice for two reasons; (1) the emphasis is on the behavior of the object of the experiment and (2) the point of science is that the result does not depend on who the agent is nor on the internal mental state or internal mental activity of the agent.

In reporting, as well, passive voice has sometimes been recommended, to emphasize that any other observer would have seen or otherwise observed the same things and events as were observed by the reporter.

In both cases use of passive voice was motivated to enforce the writer’s or speaker’s objectivity, and to demonstrate that objectivity to the addressees.

Does that help?

News media were frequently also media of opinion. They’d use the active voice for “we feel”, “we think”, “we expect”, “we fear”, etc. That was one way they showed the reader or listener that they were editorializing instead of reporting.

The passive voice was considered dull. Many reporters and editors decided to relax the “rules” about passive voice; after all, the real point was to be objective. Unfortunately we see now that the rule about objectivity has also been abandoned; like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

We also see how minor the sins of the past appear when the sins of the present are here to compare to them.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Sun 20 May 2018, 18:06

All4Ɇn wrote:
Sun 20 May 2018, 06:06
I recently read an essay about the changes in the Queen's speaking over time and it mentioned that formerly the passive voice was preferred, especially in writing, to using the first person except when saying something like "I feel", "I believe" etc. This struck me as particularly interesting as Japanese sometimes uses the passive to express formality. Are there any more specific rules or occurrences of this in English and are there other languages that do this besides English and Japanese?
In the case of the Queen, there is tension between her roles. Traditionally, as the last vestiges of personal power were being stripped from the monarchy, there was an emphasis on the Queen as an institution: not a tyrant individually acting on her own whim, but the final part of a constitutional process through which things were done. I suspect that, officially or unofficially, this encouraged the passive voice. The passive is prized in politics anyway (it lets you say things like the neutral "power was stripped from the monarchy" or "mistakes were made", without having to identify a specific person to blame for these events), and in particular the Queen would have wanted to avoid the appearance of actively doing anything herself. "I felt like visiting Jamaica" makes her sound like a tourist acting to please herself - "It was felt that Jamaica should be visited by the Crown" takes her, as an individual, out of it somewhat.

Increasingly, however, the Royals have been called upon to appear 'human' - exactly what people used not to want from their ultimate authorities. And it's easier to sound human if you throw in a lot of 'I' statements...
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Sun 20 May 2018, 18:21

Xonen wrote:
Sat 19 May 2018, 22:26
AFAIU, it's a bit more complicated than that. In Classical Arabic, the construct state is essentially the same as the definite form of the noun, but without the prefixed article; that is, the -n that usually marks indefinite nouns is dropped.
We should emphasise that despite the mystique of semitic language and their specialised terminology, this ultimately isn't something particularly weird.
For a parallel, I'd point to Irish. In Irish, the main noun in an 'of' construction takes no definite article - the article is attached to the 'possessor'.

So:
the house: an teach
the house of the doctor: teach an dochtúra
the Republic: an Poblacht
the Republic of Ireland: Poblacht na hÉireann
the man: an fear
the woman: na bhean
the man's wife: bean an fhir
the woman's husband: fear na mná

In Irish, the article is obviously separate. But if the article were affixed and if there were also an affixed definite article, then essentially the first noun in these constructs would be in a 'construct case' without either affix.

[well, not quite - Irish doesn't allow possession unless both nouns are definite. But you know what I mean.]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by GrandPiano » Sun 20 May 2018, 18:44

Salmoneus wrote:
Sun 20 May 2018, 18:21
[well, not quite - Irish doesn't allow possession unless both nouns are definite. But you know what I mean.]
So how would you express “the house of a doctor” in Irish?
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Sun 20 May 2018, 21:01

Turns out I was wrong: the possessor CAN be indefinite; but the possessed noun must be definite.

However, "a house of the doctor" could be expression with a preposition as "a house to the doctor's part" (or possibly just "a house to the doctor" - not really clear on the use of 'cuid' yet).
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by GrandPiano » Sun 20 May 2018, 23:21

Oh, interesting.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » Mon 21 May 2018, 05:12

Thanks for the responses eldin raigmore and Salmoneus! Definitely were interesting to read
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by lsd » Mon 21 May 2018, 07:42

Before being a means of delivering information, language is a way of manipulating the listener to bring it where one wishes ...
the Soviet language, stigmatized under the Orwelline prism, has made many followers in the West with the universal practice of propaganda under cover of information ...
it is difficult to make a language that can escape this evil avatar of speech ...
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » Mon 21 May 2018, 15:41

lsd wrote:
Mon 21 May 2018, 07:42
Before being a means of delivering information, language is a way of manipulating the listener to bring it where one wishes ...
the Soviet language, stigmatized under the Orwelline prism, has made many followers in the West with the universal practice of propaganda under cover of information ...
it is difficult to make a language that can escape this evil avatar of speech ...
Wait, was this in response to somebody's post? [:S]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » Mon 21 May 2018, 16:11

All4Ɇn wrote:
Mon 21 May 2018, 05:12
Thanks for the responses eldin raigmore and Salmoneus! Definitely were interesting to read
Sal’s was better than mine.

——————————

sangi, I think lsd’s post may have been a response to All4en’s “passive voice” subthreadlet.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by lsd » Mon 21 May 2018, 18:02

sangi39 wrote:
Mon 21 May 2018, 15:41
lsd wrote:
Mon 21 May 2018, 07:42
Before being a means of delivering information, language is a way of manipulating the listener to bring it where one wishes ...
Wait, was this in response to somebody's post? [:S]
to previous descriptions of the use of the passive voice as a claim to some objectivity to induce some respect of the audience ...
The passive is prized in politics anyway (it lets you say things like the neutral "power was stripped from the monarchy" or "mistakes were made", without having to identify a specific person to blame for these events), and in particular the Queen would have wanted to avoid the appearance of actively doing anything herself. "I felt like visiting Jamaica" makes her sound like a tourist acting to please herself - "It was felt that Jamaica should be visited by the Crown" takes her, as an individual, out of it somewhat.
or
In scientific writing, at least about “hard” sciences, it has been recommended to use passive voice for two reasons; (1) the emphasis is on the behavior of the object of the experiment and (2) the point of science is that the result does not depend on who the agent is nor on the internal mental state or internal mental activity of the agent.
all the linguistic tools offered by a language can be examined in the light of the possible manipulation ...
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