(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Tue 31 Jul 2018, 17:26

Aelfwine probably remembers the evidence on this chronology, if there is any, better than I do.
According to Gonda, the Pannonian palatal shift did not become common until after the velar timbre shift (this was in the 3rd century, likely.) This suggests, in Pannonia at least, 5 preceded 3 by a couple centuries. So, perhaps both were independent innovations within the Danube provinces. I'm not quite sure about the changes in Romania, but if it was an independent shift, then 4. would fail to apply on account of 5. coming first.

However, in Pannonian (and this is also true of Dalmatian), the velars still fell in line with the rest of the Empire.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 22:23

Similar to the /a/ length discussion. Apparently, some Rhaetish dialects fronted /ū/ before vowel length was lost. Does anyone know anything about this? I can't seem to find where I read that before.

(Common Slavic also fronted /ū/ > /y/. I want to know if Rhaeto-Romance did it, if it did I'll include this as a sound change for Pelso)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 00:02

Rhaeto-Romance and Gallo-Romance both fronted /u/, yes. But since original short /u/ > /U/ > /o/ anyway, there's no way to tell if it was before the loss of length - I doubt it.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 04:36

Salmoneus wrote:
Tue 07 Aug 2018, 00:02
Rhaeto-Romance and Gallo-Romance both fronted /u/, yes. But since original short /u/ > /U/ > /o/ anyway, there's no way to tell if it was before the loss of length - I doubt it.
I could swear I've read Rhetoromance fronting /u/ early on when (Classical) vowel length was still phonemic, but as you say it's been obscured.

I've been reading exerts of The Rhaeto-Romance languages, and its been enlightening stuff.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 04:41

I 5hink there are languages in the dinaric alps that fronted /u/ even before palatalization, meaning that /ku/>/ču/. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language does not seem to be it, but it says it palatalizes before /i/ and not /e/, so it mightbhave done a separate shift from the rest of romance.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 17:30

Pabappa wrote:
Tue 07 Aug 2018, 04:41
I 5hink there are languages in the dinaric alps that fronted /u/ even before palatalization, meaning that /ku/>/ču/. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language does not seem to be it, but it says it palatalizes before /i/ and not /e/, so it mightbhave done a separate shift from the rest of romance.
According to my book, that is correct. Dalmatian initially did not have any palatalization before e or i. Palatalization in Vegliote was a later development.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 15:38

How would you pronounce /c/ /ɲ/ when they occur in the coda position, especially when they are not word final. I can pronounce them when they occur as onsets, but I noticed some languages have them occur word finally, and wanted to try that. Do you know of any natlangs where these occur as codas?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 16:05

LinguoFranco wrote:
Sun 12 Aug 2018, 15:38
How would you pronounce /c/ /ɲ/ when they occur in the coda position, especially when they are not word final. I can pronounce them when they occur as onsets, but I noticed some languages have them occur word finally, and wanted to try that. Do you know of any natlangs where these occur as codas?
Khmer. It's possible they have allophones further front, but the three way distinction between alveolarh, palatal, and velar is robust even in the coda and before another consonant. Most Khmer words are short but they do allow clusters. In fact they even allow word initial clusters so this can't bleed off into a preceding vowel. The consonant stands by itself.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 18:34

LinguoFranco wrote:
Sun 12 Aug 2018, 15:38
How would you pronounce /c/ /ɲ/ when they occur in the coda position, especially when they are not word final. I can pronounce them when they occur as onsets, but I noticed some languages have them occur word finally, and wanted to try that. Do you know of any natlangs where these occur as codas?
Hungarian has palatals in word-final position, like the name "Nagy", pronounced /nɒɟ/. Then you have the Australian language Yidiny, spelled so because its name is pronounced /'jidiɲ/. Romanian has a number of words that end in <i> where the <i> is pronounced only as a palatalization of the proceeding consonant (which can be /n/).
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 22:03

LinguoFranco wrote:
Sun 12 Aug 2018, 15:38
How would you pronounce /c/ /ɲ/ when they occur in the coda position, especially when they are not word final.
Languages vary, but a common way is to pronounce them [c] and [ɲ]. There's absolutely no reason why these would be harder to pronounce word-finally than elsewhere, because they just involve the tongue going to a single fixed position. If you can only pronounce them in onsets, you're probably pronouncing them [kj] and [nj] instead.

Do you know of any natlangs where these occur as codas?
Almost Irish, although it's usually said to have /n_j/ rather than true /ɲ/. This final palatalisation is grammatically very important (eg it marks plurals). Irish has potentially up to three palatalised nasals, in fact: a palatalised alveolar, an alveolo-palatal, and a palatalised velar. In some dialects, the palatalised velar is a true palatal, distinguished from the palatalised alveolar - but I think those dialects have all lost the alveolo-palatal. [they also of course distinguish voiced and unvoiced versions, for a total of up to sixteen nasal phonemes, though I don't think any single dialect retains all sixteen. [actually, probably fourteen - I don't think you can have voiceless velars?]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by GrandPiano » Mon 13 Aug 2018, 00:48

LinguoFranco wrote:
Sun 12 Aug 2018, 15:38
Do you know of any natlangs where these occur as codas?
French and Catalan both allow word-final /ɲ/: French montagne /mɔ̃taɲ/ "mountain", Catalan any /aɲ/ "year"
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:13

This question has been bothering me for a while. Are there any languages which differentiate /t͡ʃ/ and /t͡ɕ/ (and similarly for /d͡ʒ/ and /d͡ʑ/?)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:17

Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:13
This question has been bothering me for a while. Are there any languages which differentiate /t͡ʃ/ and /t͡ɕ/ (and similarly for /d͡ʒ/ and /d͡ʑ/?)
Polish has /t͡s d͡z s z/ vs. /t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ʂ ʐ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɕ ʑ/, unless you're asking about specifically /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ/.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:27

shimobaatar wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:17
Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:13
This question has been bothering me for a while. Are there any languages which differentiate /t͡ʃ/ and /t͡ɕ/ (and similarly for /d͡ʒ/ and /d͡ʑ/?)
Polish has /t͡s d͡z s z/ vs. /t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ʂ ʐ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɕ ʑ/, unless you're asking about specifically /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ/.
Yes, I mean a difference between /t͡s d͡z s z/ vs. /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʃ ʒ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɕ ʑ/. It's been suggested that the affricates could be slightly labialized in their articulation, but I'm not sure.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:30

Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:27
shimobaatar wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:17
Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:13
This question has been bothering me for a while. Are there any languages which differentiate /t͡ʃ/ and /t͡ɕ/ (and similarly for /d͡ʒ/ and /d͡ʑ/?)
Polish has /t͡s d͡z s z/ vs. /t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ʂ ʐ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɕ ʑ/, unless you're asking about specifically /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ/.
Yes, I mean a difference between /t͡s d͡z s z/ vs. /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʃ ʒ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɕ ʑ/. It's been suggested that the affricates could be slightly labialized in their articulation, but I'm not sure.
I don't think it should be a problem.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist » Mon 13 Aug 2018, 12:52

Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:27
shimobaatar wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:17
Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:13
This question has been bothering me for a while. Are there any languages which differentiate /t͡ʃ/ and /t͡ɕ/ (and similarly for /d͡ʒ/ and /d͡ʑ/?)
Polish has /t͡s d͡z s z/ vs. /t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ʂ ʐ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɕ ʑ/, unless you're asking about specifically /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ/.
Yes, I mean a difference between /t͡s d͡z s z/ vs. /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʃ ʒ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɕ ʑ/. It's been suggested that the affricates could be slightly labialized in their articulation, but I'm not sure.
I don't think they are labialized. They have some retroflex properties, if anything, but they are not your classical Mandarin or Hindi retroflexes. For example, they act like retroflexes in the sense of not allowing a following front /i/ and changing it to /1/ but they are not apical and you don't curl back your tongue to pronounce them. Source: I'm Polish.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 13 Aug 2018, 13:22

gestaltist wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 12:52
Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:27
shimobaatar wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:17
Ælfwine wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 03:13
This question has been bothering me for a while. Are there any languages which differentiate /t͡ʃ/ and /t͡ɕ/ (and similarly for /d͡ʒ/ and /d͡ʑ/?)
Polish has /t͡s d͡z s z/ vs. /t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ʂ ʐ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɕ ʑ/, unless you're asking about specifically /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ/.
Yes, I mean a difference between /t͡s d͡z s z/ vs. /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʃ ʒ/ vs. /t͡ɕ d͡ʑ ɕ ʑ/. It's been suggested that the affricates could be slightly labialized in their articulation, but I'm not sure.
I don't think they are labialized. They have some retroflex properties, if anything, but they are not your classical Mandarin or Hindi retroflexes. For example, they act like retroflexes in the sense of not allowing a following front /i/ and changing it to /1/ but they are not apical and you don't curl back your tongue to pronounce them. Source: I'm Polish.
I could be wrong, but I don't think Ælfwine was suggesting that Polish /t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ʂ ʐ/ are slightly labialized, just that they could make /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʃ ʒ/ in their conlang slightly labialized to distinguish them from the other two sets of sibilants.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist » Mon 13 Aug 2018, 14:18

shimobaatar wrote:
Mon 13 Aug 2018, 13:22
I could be wrong, but I don't think Ælfwine was suggesting that Polish /t͡ʂ d͡ʐ ʂ ʐ/ are slightly labialized, just that they could make /t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʃ ʒ/ in their conlang slightly labialized to distinguish them from the other two sets of sibilants.
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I think that's a reasonable idea: a three-way distinction between plain-labialized-palatalized. I think it would be likely for this distinction to apply to all coronals in that case, and perhaps also velars.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Mon 13 Aug 2018, 22:14

Shimo is correct. I haven't innovated a three way distinction between palatalized and labialized coronals/velars though, merely suggested that slight labialization (like German iirc) could help differentiate it from the true palatal affricates.

What essentially happened is that first the velars /k/ and /g/ were palatalized to /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ before /e/ and /i/, but not /a/. Later on, a second round of palatalization occurred, palatalizing /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ further to /tɕ/ and /dʑ/ before /e/ and /i/, while palatalizing /k/ and /g/ to /tʃ/ and /dʒ/ before new reflexes of /e/ and /i/ as well as /a/ (including those initially from /kʷ/.)

(I was initially going to do a contrast between /c ɟ/ and /tʃ dʒ/ but I thought that was too close to Friulan. To my knowledge /tɕ dʑ/ are common amongst Rhetish dialects and Slovenian ones.)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » Fri 17 Aug 2018, 18:21

There's another Slavic language that distinguishes /ʧ/, /ʤ/ and /ʨ/, /ʥ/ - Serbo-Croatian. But, as is the case with Polish, the first pair aren't actually proper /ʧ/, /ʤ/ - they are apical (sometimes even truly retroflex) and slightly labialized. There's also numerous dialects that merge them into proper /ʧ/ and /ʤ/ (I distinguish them improperly since I'm bidialectal), which makes for one of the two greatest difficulties of our otherwise largely phonemic orthography.

It should be known, however, that the distinction has an extremely low functional load in S-C, so if your language is different in that regard, I say yes to the distinction, and to allophonic labialization.
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