(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Clio » Fri 31 Aug 2018, 18:00

@Omzinesý: Thank you--that's exactly the sort of resource I was looking for!

@Zekoslav: Yeah, I have got copies of Fortson and Ringe's books. I'll put in a request for Panieri's as well--it looks promising. Thank you also for the webpages!
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Evni Öpiu-sä » Tue 04 Sep 2018, 15:18

A word is pronounced [ˈɑ.jeŋ]. How is it spelled by those who speak English fluently?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 04 Sep 2018, 15:41

Evni Öpiu-sä wrote:
Tue 04 Sep 2018, 15:18
A word is pronounced [ˈɑ.jeŋ]. How is it spelled by those who speak English fluently?
If you're asking how to write this word so that English speakers will come close to pronouncing it correctly, I'd probably say "ayeng".

Edit: Or maybe something like "ahyayng", but aesthetically, I definitely prefer "ayeng".
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by alynnidalar » Tue 04 Sep 2018, 19:26

I would say <ayeng> as well, although I'm inclined to want to reduce the first syllable and stress the second. <ahyeng> might work to prevent that.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Jackk » Tue 04 Sep 2018, 20:24

shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 04 Sep 2018, 15:41
Evni Öpiu-sä wrote:
Tue 04 Sep 2018, 15:18
A word is pronounced [ˈɑ.jeŋ]. How is it spelled by those who speak English fluently?
If you're asking how to write this word so that English speakers will come close to pronouncing it correctly, I'd probably say "ayeng".

Edit: Or maybe something like "ahyayng", but aesthetically, I definitely prefer "ayeng".
In my dialect, "Ar-ying" is pronounced almost exactly like that, except with a long first syllable.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Thu 06 Sep 2018, 20:59

Can Latin conjugations somehow be derived from PIE?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Thu 06 Sep 2018, 21:35

Omzinesý wrote:
Thu 06 Sep 2018, 20:59
Can Latin conjugations somehow be derived from PIE?
The Latin conjugations are not a direct reflex of PIE verb classes, but they contain PIE classes within them (not always evenly distributed).

The 1st conjugation is mostly denominative verbs (formed from o- and ā-stem nouns), as well as causatives and frequentatives. Most are of the -ye/o type, which was a PIE thematic verb class that is extremely productive in Latin.
The 2nd conjugation forms verbs from roots with the stem -ē (eH) as well as some -ye/o verbs, causatives, and frequentatives.
The 3rd conjugation has combined several PIE verb classes (mainly thematic): simple thematics, inchoative verbs in -sko, reduplicating presents, nasal infix presents, etc. There are also some -ye/o verbs here too, like "capio".
The 4th conjugation is the -ye/o conjugation, but many of these verbs end up in the other conjugations, as noted above.

The irregular verbs are mostly derived from PIE athematics. But many of the 4 Latin conjugations have taken original PIE athematics and "thematicized" them with suffixes.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by yangfiretiger121 » Thu 06 Sep 2018, 22:36

I listened to delta's Greek pronunciation (/ˈðelta/) several times on Google translate. However, I couldn't tell if /ð/ was closer to [th] (this) or [dɦ]. Is Greek /ð/ closer to [th] or [dɦ]?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Fri 07 Sep 2018, 02:31

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
Thu 06 Sep 2018, 22:36
I listened to delta's Greek pronunciation (/ˈðelta/) several times on Google translate. However, I couldn't tell if /ð/ was closer to [th] (this) or [dɦ]. Is Greek /ð/ closer to [th] or [dɦ]?
The <th> in "this" is /ð/, as is the usual pronunciation of <δ>. I wouldn't trust Google Translate's pronunciation for anything, really.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Fri 07 Sep 2018, 21:58

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
Thu 06 Sep 2018, 21:35
Omzinesý wrote:
Thu 06 Sep 2018, 20:59
Can Latin conjugations somehow be derived from PIE?
The Latin conjugations are not a direct reflex of PIE verb classes, but they contain PIE classes within them (not always evenly distributed).

The 1st conjugation is mostly denominative verbs (formed from o- and ā-stem nouns), as well as causatives and frequentatives. Most are of the -ye/o type, which was a PIE thematic verb class that is extremely productive in Latin.
The 2nd conjugation forms verbs from roots with the stem -ē (eH) as well as some -ye/o verbs, causatives, and frequentatives.
The 3rd conjugation has combined several PIE verb classes (mainly thematic): simple thematics, inchoative verbs in -sko, reduplicating presents, nasal infix presents, etc. There are also some -ye/o verbs here too, like "capio".
The 4th conjugation is the -ye/o conjugation, but many of these verbs end up in the other conjugations, as noted above.

The irregular verbs are mostly derived from PIE athematics. But many of the 4 Latin conjugations have taken original PIE athematics and "thematicized" them with suffixes.
Thank you!

So all of them can derive from -ye/o verbs, nice
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Reyzadren » Fri 07 Sep 2018, 23:09

Does anyone know of any multilingual news or social media/general info site that display similar translations?

For example, I could easily browse bbc, msn or wikipedia, but their webpages in other languages don't actually correspond to the content in English, at least not down to the paragraph level, if there is an equivalent article at all.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » Sat 08 Sep 2018, 17:43

Reyzadren wrote:
Fri 07 Sep 2018, 23:09
Does anyone know of any multilingual news or social media/general info site that display similar translations?

For example, I could easily browse bbc, msn or wikipedia, but their webpages in other languages don't actually correspond to the content in English, at least not down to the paragraph level, if there is an equivalent article at all.
There are actually bilingual newspapers in USAmerica in certain communities. English/Spanish, English/Chinese, English/Korean, and English/VietNamese , for example. I’ve only seen hard copies, but I bet some are also online now. I believe (on the basis of evidence I’ve forgotten) that for the most part articles are directly translated from one language to the other.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 16:54

Outside of the linguistic world (in the world of lay English speakers, that is), it's pretty universally recognized that the word "moist" is unpleasant. If you post a poll about what word people think sounds the worst, I swear, at least half of people asked will say "moist". Is it just because there's an uncommon diphthong followed by a consonant cluster? But then why isn't a word like "voiced" hated as much? [¬.¬] How much of the revulsion is due to the sound vs. the meaning or is it just the perfect balance of unpleasant sound and meaning? Do you hate the word "moist" too?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 17:36

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
Mon 17 Sep 2018, 16:54
Outside of the linguistic world (in the world of lay English speakers, that is), it's pretty universally recognized that the word "moist" is unpleasant. [....]How much of the revulsion is due to the sound vs. the meaning or is it just the perfect balance of unpleasant sound and meaning?
Wiktionary disagrees .... https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/moist .... our dislike of the word may be due to its sexual meaning alone, rather than it's sound or any of the other meanings. I've heard this before but I don't have any emotional association with this word or with "damp".
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 18:45

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
Mon 17 Sep 2018, 16:54
Outside of the linguistic world (in the world of lay English speakers, that is), it's pretty universally recognized that the word "moist" is unpleasant. If you post a poll about what word people think sounds the worst, I swear, at least half of people asked will say "moist". Is it just because there's an uncommon diphthong followed by a consonant cluster? But then why isn't a word like "voiced" hated as much? [¬.¬] How much of the revulsion is due to the sound vs. the meaning or is it just the perfect balance of unpleasant sound and meaning? Do you hate the word "moist" too?
I think it's just the meaning. I don't mind it personally.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 21:55

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
Mon 17 Sep 2018, 16:54
Outside of the linguistic world (in the world of lay English speakers, that is), it's pretty universally recognized that the word "moist" is unpleasant. If you post a poll about what word people think sounds the worst, I swear, at least half of people asked will say "moist". Is it just because there's an uncommon diphthong followed by a consonant cluster? But then why isn't a word like "voiced" hated as much? [¬.¬] How much of the revulsion is due to the sound vs. the meaning or is it just the perfect balance of unpleasant sound and meaning? Do you hate the word "moist" too?
No it is not 'universally recognised'. It's some American comedian's routine that is parroted as a meme by internet people, mostly by Americans, as gospel despite having forgotten its origin.

The ultimate cause is presumably that it at some point became sexual slang, and American culture is prudish.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 23:46

The people I hear say they hate it do sometimes reference the sound, so I’m not quite willing to say the sound has nothing to do with it. I hadn’t heard of it being used sexually, though, so that certainly would make sense in explaining some part of the revulsion (note that “wet” is more common as a sexual term but I never hear anyone cite that as a least-favorite word). The poll that inspired me to ask about this word was also quite diverse in the ages of the participants; not sure if prudishness alone could explain it (but I assume most of the participants were American). I’d never heard of the comedy routine origin either; it’s become pervasive enough that the origin does seem to have been forgotten by many.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 23:57

I wouldn't be surprised if it's just an American thing, but isn't it possible that this comedian's bit (which I happen to not be familiar with, either) was inspired by some Americans' distaste for the word, and not the other way around?
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
Mon 17 Sep 2018, 23:46
The people I hear say they hate it do sometimes reference the sound, so I’m not quite willing to say the sound has nothing to do with it.
Perhaps people don't realize that it's the potential meaning of the word that makes them uncomfortable, so they attribute it to the sound?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Tue 18 Sep 2018, 00:12

Essentially I view this as similar to people's preferences re. the sounds of other languages. You ask English speakers (not just American from what I've seen) what languages they don't like the sound of, they will say German/Russian/Arabic, and you ask what languages they like the sound of, they will say French or another Romance language (I am of course speaking generally). Now this is not to say that there's anything objectively pleasant or unpleasant about the sounds of these languages, and we can cite the Nazis and the Cold War and various non-linguistic factors that might help explain these preferences, but they are predictable patterns (and as with "moist", you will hear people cite specific sounds that factor into their choices). So of course I wonder how much is based on sound and how much is based on other factors (and before I posted this, I didn't know anything about the "other factors" of the dislike of "moist" other than moist and damp things sometimes being associated with the unpleasant semantic umbrella of slimy/clammy/oozing, etc.)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » Tue 18 Sep 2018, 00:25

I think part of it is "collective" as well, like, you've heard "moist" and thought it's unpleasant, but it's ended up being cited quite commonly as "unpleasant" which emphasises that fact (in a similar manner to "cellar door" being considered pleasant. You might actually think it sounds pleasant, but you think that to a higher degree because you've also heard other people say that), so "moist" is just the one that pops into your head first (and it seems like Sal has pointed out the origin of that, reading up the thread).
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