(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
Ælfwine
greek
greek
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon 21 Sep 2015, 00:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 00:23

shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 23:02
CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 22:40
Could anyone link me to a resource on Proto Norse and/or Proto Germanic language? I need phonology, grammar and lexicon if they're available.
I honestly just look at Wikipedia and Wiktionary for the most part.
Wikipedia is pretty bad for Proto Norse. It lists mostly generalities.

I'm doing my own reconstruction of PGmc > Old Norse, and it's fairly difficult. I have a general idea of what the major sound laws are and when they happen, but I'd always appreciate a solid chronology.
My Blog
Current Projects:
Mannish — A North Germanic language spoken on the Calf of Man
Pelsodian — A Romance language spoken around Lake Balaton
Jezik Panoski — A Slavic language spoken in the same area
shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 10676
Joined: Fri 12 Jul 2013, 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 00:29

Ælfwine wrote:
Wed 10 Oct 2018, 00:23
shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 23:02
CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 22:40
Could anyone link me to a resource on Proto Norse and/or Proto Germanic language? I need phonology, grammar and lexicon if they're available.
I honestly just look at Wikipedia and Wiktionary for the most part.
Wikipedia is pretty bad for Proto Norse. It lists mostly generalities.

I'm doing my own reconstruction of PGmc > Old Norse, and it's fairly difficult. I have a general idea of what the major sound laws are and when they happen, but I'd always appreciate a solid chronology.
Oh, whoops, sorry, I totally missed "Proto Norse" while reading the question.

I do think that Wikipedia and Wiktionary are pretty good resources for Proto-Germanic, though.
User avatar
Tristan Radicz
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri 21 Sep 2018, 00:56
Location: už devynių jūrų

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Tristan Radicz » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 00:59

CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 22:40
Could anyone link me to a resource on Proto Norse and/or Proto Germanic language? I need phonology, grammar and lexicon if they're available.
Stuff that is easy to find on the internet in English:

Winfred P. Lehmann, A Grammar of Proto-Germanic;
Don Ringe, A History of English, vol. 1: From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic;
Vladimir Orel, A Handbook of Germanic Etymology;
Guus Kroonen, Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Germanic (Leiden's take on Proto-Germanic and the source of most of wiktionary's PG etymologies).
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1777
Joined: Sat 01 Mar 2014, 07:19

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 03:36

shimobaatar wrote:
Wed 10 Oct 2018, 00:29
I do think that Wikipedia and Wiktionary are pretty good resources for Proto-Germanic, though.
I've made an entire Germlang using just those two. It's pretty amazing how great of a resource they are for it.



Speaking of proto-Germanic what is the origin of the -t in the neuter definite articles in Icelandic eitt, Swedish ett, etc? Apparently it's even the origin of the t in German's etwas so it seems to be something that predates Old Norse.
User avatar
Tristan Radicz
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri 21 Sep 2018, 00:56
Location: už devynių jūrų

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Tristan Radicz » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 13:34

All4Ɇn wrote:
Wed 10 Oct 2018, 03:36
Speaking of proto-Germanic what is the origin of the -t in the neuter definite articles in Icelandic eitt, Swedish ett, etc? Apparently it's even the origin of the t in German's etwas so it seems to be something that predates Old Norse.
Uncertain, as far as I know. It has been compared to the first element in Bulgarian edi koj 'someone unspecified, anyone who' (< Proto-Slavic *(j)ede kъjь), as well as in Latin ecquis (if from *ed-quis, though that etymology is obsolete, I gather).
User avatar
Omzinesý
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2444
Joined: Fri 27 Aug 2010, 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 15:53

Tristan Radicz wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 13:56
Omzinesý wrote:
Mon 08 Oct 2018, 22:08
I read an Wikipedia article on Old High German declension. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_High_ ... declension
Does anybody know what the alternate forms (?) tages (-as), tage (-a) etc. are? orthographic differences, dialectal differences, a real sub-declension?
The latter endings are sparsely attested prior to 9th century. They might be influenced by Old Low German - there, e and a merged into a (or sometimes e) in final syllables. It's also the regular development in the Bavarian version of OHG, iirc.
Thanks!
User avatar
CarsonDaConlanger
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 2017, 20:55

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » Wed 10 Oct 2018, 18:30

Thanks for all the info! I have another(unrelated) question:

There are traits that are correlated with various word orders (SOV langs are usually head final, with postpositions, and are exclusively suffixing.) What traits are common with the other orders like SVO and VSO?
User avatar
Aszev
admin
admin
Posts: 1508
Joined: Tue 11 May 2010, 04:46
Location: Upp.
Contact:

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Aszev » Thu 11 Oct 2018, 09:38

Ælfwine wrote:
Wed 10 Oct 2018, 00:23
shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 23:02
CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 22:40
Could anyone link me to a resource on Proto Norse and/or Proto Germanic language? I need phonology, grammar and lexicon if they're available.
I honestly just look at Wikipedia and Wiktionary for the most part.
Wikipedia is pretty bad for Proto Norse. It lists mostly generalities.

I'm doing my own reconstruction of PGmc > Old Norse, and it's fairly difficult. I have a general idea of what the major sound laws are and when they happen, but I'd always appreciate a solid chronology.
How well do you read Scandinavian?
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

Image CE
User avatar
Aszev
admin
admin
Posts: 1508
Joined: Tue 11 May 2010, 04:46
Location: Upp.
Contact:

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Aszev » Thu 11 Oct 2018, 09:38

CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
Wed 10 Oct 2018, 18:30
Thanks for all the info! I have another(unrelated) question:

There are traits that are correlated with various word orders (SOV langs are usually head final, with postpositions, and are exclusively suffixing.) What traits are common with the other orders like SVO and VSO?
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1454
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

Image CE
User avatar
CarsonDaConlanger
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 149
Joined: Thu 02 Nov 2017, 20:55

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » Thu 11 Oct 2018, 12:15

Aszev wrote:
Thu 11 Oct 2018, 09:38
CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
Wed 10 Oct 2018, 18:30
Thanks for all the info! I have another(unrelated) question:

There are traits that are correlated with various word orders (SOV langs are usually head final, with postpositions, and are exclusively suffixing.) What traits are common with the other orders like SVO and VSO?
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1454
Thanks! That's very informative!
Ælfwine
greek
greek
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon 21 Sep 2015, 00:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Thu 11 Oct 2018, 18:48

Aszev wrote:
Thu 11 Oct 2018, 09:38
Ælfwine wrote:
Wed 10 Oct 2018, 00:23
shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 23:02
CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 22:40
Could anyone link me to a resource on Proto Norse and/or Proto Germanic language? I need phonology, grammar and lexicon if they're available.
I honestly just look at Wikipedia and Wiktionary for the most part.
Wikipedia is pretty bad for Proto Norse. It lists mostly generalities.

I'm doing my own reconstruction of PGmc > Old Norse, and it's fairly difficult. I have a general idea of what the major sound laws are and when they happen, but I'd always appreciate a solid chronology.
How well do you read Scandinavian?
Poorly, the only reason I can read snippets is due to sheer familiarity with the Germanic *corpus*
My Blog
Current Projects:
Mannish — A North Germanic language spoken on the Calf of Man
Pelsodian — A Romance language spoken around Lake Balaton
Jezik Panoski — A Slavic language spoken in the same area
User avatar
Omzinesý
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2444
Joined: Fri 27 Aug 2010, 07:17
Location: nowhere [naʊhɪɚ]

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 20:05

English and Swedish often have v while German has b.
Have, ha (va), haben; live, leva, leben etc. What sound change explains them?
shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 10676
Joined: Fri 12 Jul 2013, 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 20:31

Omzinesý wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 20:05
English and Swedish often have v while German has b.
Have, ha (va), haben; live, leva, leben etc. What sound change explains them?
Might this be what you're looking for?
User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2650
Joined: Sun 11 Jan 2015, 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by GrandPiano » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 21:27

shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 20:31
Omzinesý wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 20:05
English and Swedish often have v while German has b.
Have, ha (va), haben; live, leva, leben etc. What sound change explains them?
Might this be what you're looking for?
How do we know that it shifted from [β] to [b]? How do we know Old High German didn't retain a [b] that lenited to [β] in the other West Germanic languages?
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
User avatar
spanick
greek
greek
Posts: 701
Joined: Thu 11 May 2017, 00:47
Location: California

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by spanick » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 21:37

GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 21:27
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 20:31
Omzinesý wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 20:05
English and Swedish often have v while German has b.
Have, ha (va), haben; live, leva, leben etc. What sound change explains them?
Might this be what you're looking for?
How do we know that it shifted from [β] to [b]? How do we know Old High German didn't retain a [b] that lenited to [β] in the other West Germanic languages?
Because of Verner's Law.
shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 10676
Joined: Fri 12 Jul 2013, 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 22:05

GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 21:27
shimobaatar wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 20:31
Omzinesý wrote:
Sat 13 Oct 2018, 20:05
English and Swedish often have v while German has b.
Have, ha (va), haben; live, leva, leben etc. What sound change explains them?
Might this be what you're looking for?
How do we know that it shifted from [β] to [b]? How do we know Old High German didn't retain a [b] that lenited to [β] in the other West Germanic languages?
Well, I didn't write the article, of course, but in historical linguistics, it's generally assumed that a single change in one direction (in this case, [β] > [b] in OHG) is more likely than a number of identical changes in another direction (in this case, [b] > [β] in Old English, Old Saxon, Old Dutch, etc.).

Of course, it's hard to really know anything for certain when we're looking at the past, but as spanick said, this conclusion fits better with things like Verner's Law, and we can make an educated guess. That's what makes sense to me, at least.
Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1485
Joined: Mon 19 Sep 2011, 18:37

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Sat 13 Oct 2018, 23:58

Nobody knows whether proto-germanic had stops or fricatives. Indeed, it may well have been that these phonemes had both realisations, or that there may always have been regional or other variation.


It's all very well saying 'oh, but B>b in German is better than b>B in all the other languages', but that overlooks the rest of the language. For instance, we then need to have D>d in all contexts in all West Germanic languages (and D>d after /l/ and /z/ in North Germanic, iirc), and B>b and G>g after nasals in all Germanic languages, and also when geminated, and for /B/ (and maybe /G/) also initially. The idea of a lenition of /G/ that also spreads to /B/ in the southern dialects isn't really much more farfetched.

It also needs to be remembered that we're not really talking about different languages - we're talking about a west germanic dialect continuum with old high german at one extreme. So no change really needs to be thought of as happening independently in any one branch - changes could progress from one branch to the next.

So I don't think any firm conclusions can be warrented.
shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 10676
Joined: Fri 12 Jul 2013, 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Sun 14 Oct 2018, 03:55

My intention was just to explain some of the likely reasoning behind the claims made on Wikipedia. I don't know enough on the subject to really make or support a claim either way myself.
User avatar
Znex
roman
roman
Posts: 1172
Joined: Mon 12 Aug 2013, 13:05
Location: Australia

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Znex » Sun 14 Oct 2018, 10:10

Does anyone know how common retracted [s̠] is in the world's languages as a or the main allophone of /s/ or /ʃ/ (whether expressed apico- or lamino-alveolar)? I understand it was fairly common in medieval mainland European languages, where in some cases it was kept distinct to denti-alveolar /s/ and postalveolar /ʃ/, as opposed to some neighbouring countries:

eg. Middle French /s/ in loanwords > English /ʃ/ (eg. pousser /pusser/ > push /pʊʃ/; passion /passjɔn/ > /pæʃən/)
compare Middle French /ts/ in loanwords > English /s/ (eg. accepter /aktsɛpter/ > /əksɛpt/; notice /nɔtits(ə)/ > /nəʊtɪs/)

Middle High German /s/ in loanwords > Polish /ʂ/ (eg. kosten /kɔstən/ > kosztować /kɔʂtɔvatɕ/; sur /su:r/ > żur /ʐur/)
compare Middle High German /ts/ in loanwords > Polish /s/ (eg. loz /lo:ts/ > los /lɔs/)

Old Spanish /s/ in loanwords > Nahuatl /ʃ/ (eg. patos /patos/ > /patoʃ/)
Nahuatl /s/ perceived as similar to Middle Spanish /s̠/ (hence aztecatl rather than astecatl)
Spanish undergoes sibilant chain shift: /s̠/ > /s̺/ ( > /θ/)
Old Spanish /ʃ/ becomes /x/

And of course it's still the case in Northern Spain, as in Basque which retains a dental-retracted-postalveolar sibilant distinction (<z> /s̻/ vs. <s> /s̺/vs. <x> /ʃ/), and in Modern Greek (the main allophone of /s/ is typically retracted).

I must say I've never heard quite of such a sibilant distinction outside of Europe, but I know more of the prevalence of another three-pronged sibilant distinction: alveolar-retroflex-palatal.

How common is the retracted sibilant simply?
:eng: : [tick] | :grc: :wls: : [:|] | :chn: :isr: : [:S] | :nor: :deu: :rom: :ind: :con: : [:x]
Conlangs: Pofp'ash, Ikwawese, Old Quelgic, Nisukil Pʰakwi, Apsiska
User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4465
Joined: Tue 14 Aug 2012, 18:32

Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Sun 14 Oct 2018, 12:16

This is a difficult question, because many grammars just describe the only sibilant in a language as simple /s/ no matter how it is realized. I would think it is fairly common. Some Indonesian varieties seem to have [s̠]. I especially noticed that when they were learning German and often neutralized /s/ and /ʃ/ to something that sounded like [s̠] to me.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Post Reply