The man sees the woman using the telescope.

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The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by DanH34 » Fri 27 Jan 2012, 01:48

English

- The man sees the woman using the telescope.

An interesting case of ambiguity in English.

Does your natlang/conlang have a method of distinguishing who has the telescope? If so, is the distinction mandatory, and is there an 'unmarked form', that is to say, is there someone who is assumed to have the telescope by default?

Zidhgebzhail - Use of the Second Copula (for the lack of a better/more accurate name) 'hi-' to indicate a connection between nouns within a clause.

ozil azefa ghaizonaupaung Ain
oz-il az-ef-a ghaiz-on-aup-aung Ø-Ai-n
man-ERG.SG.MASC woman-ACC-SG.FEM sight-far-tool-INSTR.SG.MASC PRES-see-SIMPLE
Man sees woman using telescope (the man is using it).

ozil azefa hi-ghaizonaupaung Ain
oz-il az-ef-a hi-ghaiz-on-aup-aung Ø-Ai-n
man-ERG.SG.MASC woman-ACC-SG.FEM COP.2-sight-far-tool-INSTR.SG.MASC PRES-see-SIMPLE
Man sees woman using telescope (the woman is using it).

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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by thetha » Fri 27 Jan 2012, 04:00

In Vietnamese, this ambiguity doesn't occur. In fact I'd go so far as to say it couldn't occur while being grammatical.

Ông xem bà bằng kính viễn vọng.
Man see woman by.use.of telescope
(The man is using the telescope)
Ông xem bà dùng kính viễn vọng.
Man see woman use telescope
(The woman is using the telescope)
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by xinda » Fri 27 Jan 2012, 05:14

:roc:
男人用望遠鏡看到女人。
nan2ren2 yong4 wang4yuan3jing4 kan4dao4 nv3ren2
male-person use hope-far-mirror see-arrive female-person
"Using a telescope, the man saw the woman."

男人看到用望遠鏡的女人。
nan2ren2 kan4dao4 yong4 wang4yuan3jing4 de nv3ren2
male-person see-arrive use hope-far-mirror GEN female-person
"The man saw the woman who was using the telescope."


:jpn:
男の人は望遠鏡で女の人を見た。
otoko no hito wa bōenkyō de onna no hito o mita
male GEN person TOP telescope INSTR female GEN person OBJ see-PST
"Using a telescope, the man saw the woman."

男の人は望遠鏡を使った女の人を見た。
otoko no hito wa bōenkyō o tsukatta onna no hito o mita
male GEN person TOP telescope OBJ use-PST female GEN person OBJ see-PST
"The man saw the woman who was using the telescope."


No ambiguity in either Mandarin or Japanese. The "using the telescope" part is generally treated as a noun modifier and "woman who was using the telescope" becomes a single noun phrase that can be used as an object.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by taylorS » Fri 27 Jan 2012, 05:17

Alpic:

This just depends on where the phrase "using the telescope" is in the sentence.

AP = Active Participle
A = Agentive Conjugation
P = Patientive-Experiential Conjugation
INST = Instrumental Case

Vole d'arra sjokennat dot teleskopot dan gunen.
Vole da arra sjok-enna-t do-t teleskopo-t da-n gune-n
see-3SG.P DEF man use-AP-INST DEF-INST telescope-INST DEF-DAT woman-DAT
"The man using the telescope sees the woman."

Vole d'arra dan gunen zjin sjokivas do teleskopo.
Vol-e da arra da-n gune-n sjok-iva-s do teleskopo
see-3SG.P DEF man DEF-DAT woman-DAT REL-DAT use-SUBJ-3SG.A DEF telescope
"The man sees the woman who is using the telescope."
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » Fri 27 Jan 2012, 18:39

:pol:
Mężczyzna widzi kobietę używając teleskopu.
(man.NOM see.3SG woman.ACC using.ADV telescope.GEN)

Mężczyzna widzi kobietę używającą teleskopu.
(man.NOM see.3SG woman.ACC using.ADJ.F.ACC telescope.GEN)
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Xing » Fri 27 Jan 2012, 21:08

This kind of ambiguities arise due to the fact that adpositions can be used either adverbially or adnominally in many languages. One could interpret "using" as an instrumental adposition here; does it modify "woman" (adnominally), or "see" (adverbially).

In Wa‘tē, I used to have a distinction between adverbial and and adnominal use of prepositions. Or rather, all prepositions could only be used adverbially. For an adnominal use, a relative clause was needed. ("I saw the woman, who was using the telescope").

Today, this distinction has faded away.

:con: Waʻtē

Xe kipe ā ta teāne ta nōe nare ta telekōpu
/ʔe ˈkipe aː ta teˈaːne ta ˈnoːe naː ta teleˈkoːp/
PRS see ERG DEN man DEF woman INSTR telescope

Edit: One may also say:

Nare ta telekōpu, xe kipe ā ta teāne ta nōe.
INSTR DEF telescope PRS see ERG DEF man DEF woman
"Using the telescope, the man sees the woman"

This can only be interpreted in one way - that the man is using the telescope for seeing the woman.
Last edited by Xing on Sun 29 Jan 2012, 18:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Visinoid » Sat 28 Jan 2012, 03:07

True present participles in French (as the ones of English) use "en" (litt. "in") before it. When it is an adjective and it qualifies a noun, it is not used.

:fra:

L'homme voit la femme en utilisant un téléscope.
(the man sees the women in using a telescope)

L'homme voit la femme utilisant un téléscope.
(the man sees the woman using a telescope)

It is the same as English in Spanish. It's ambiguous.

:esp:

El hombre ve la mujer usando un telescopo.
(the man sees the woman using a telescope)
Last edited by Visinoid on Sun 29 Jan 2012, 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Khemehekis » Sat 28 Jan 2012, 13:28

In Kankonian, if the woman were the one using the telescope, you woule say:

Wiri emas mopiga mehimas phudus.
[ˈwiri ˈɛmas mouˈpʰiga mɛˈhimas ˈr̥̼udus]
man see+PRESENT woman use+PRESENT telescope

If the man, conversely, were the one using the telescope, you could say:

Wiri emas mopiga mos mehimas phudus.
[ˈwiri ˈɛmas mouˈpʰiga mous mɛˈhimas ˈr̥̼udus]
man see+PRESENT woman while use+PRESENT telescope

But more common for the second meaning would be:

Wiri emas mopiga hom phudus.
[ˈwiri ˈɛmas mouˈpʰiga houm ˈr̥̼udus]
man see+PRESENT woman via telescope
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Prinsessa » Sat 28 Jan 2012, 13:54

Vanga:

Aljjauspeussi íwwnewi.
He* sees her* through the telescope.
star-sight-throw.INST see.3PS.OBJ-3PS

Aljjauspeussi íwwnewi jœ.
The man* sees her* through the telescope.
star-sight-throw.INST see.3PS.OBJ-3PS person.NOM

Aljjauspeussi já/jœ íww jœ.
The man* sees the woman* through the telescope.
star-sight-throw.INST person.ACC see.3PS person.NOM

* This can be used no matter if the man sees the woman or if the woman sees the man, though.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by valiums » Sun 29 Jan 2012, 16:08

This is not ambiguous in Heba.

Humu jome veme gïdï teleskopo.
[DEF] man see [DEF] woman hold telescope.
The man sees the-woman-who-has-a-telescope.

Humu jome teleskopov veme. / Humu jome veme teleskopov.
[DEF] man see telescope-INS [DEF] woman.
The man sees-with-a-telescope the woman.
(The first order is the usual, but the other might be used because of the two V's.)
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by CMunk » Mon 30 Jan 2012, 11:51

:dan: Danish

Ambiguous:
Manden ser kvinden med teleskopet
[ˈmænˀn̩ ˈse̝ɐ̯ˀ ˈkʰʋe̝nn̩ mɛ ˌtˢe̝ləˈsg̊oːˀb̥ð̩]
Mand-en ser kvind-en med teleskop-et
man-DEF see.PRS woman-DEF with telescope-DEF
"The man sees the woman with the telescope" (Either the man or the woman has the telescope)

Unambiguous I:
Manden ser kvinden gennem teleskopet
[ˈmænˀn̩ ˈse̝ɐ̯ˀ ˈkʰʋe̝nn̩ ˈgɛmˀm̩ ˌtˢe̝ləˈsg̊oːˀb̥ð̩]
Mand-en ser kvind-en gennem teleskop-et
man-DEF see.PRS woman-DEF through telescope-DEF
"The man sees the woman through the telescope" (The man has the telescope)

Unambiguous II:
Manden ser kvinden bruge teleskopet
[ˈmænˀn̩ ˈse̝ɐ̯ˀ ˈkʰʋe̝nn̩ ˈb̥ʁuːu ˌtˢe̝ləˈsg̊oːˀb̥ð̩]
Mand-en ser kvind-en bruge teleskop-et
man-DEF see.PRS woman-DEF use telescope-DEF
"The man sees the woman use the telescope" (The woman is using the telescope)
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Xing » Mon 30 Jan 2012, 17:48

CMunk wrote:
Unambiguous II:
Manden ser kvinden bruge teleskopet
[ˈmænˀn̩ ˈse̝ɐ̯ˀ ˈkʰʋe̝nn̩ ˈb̥ʁuːu ˌtˢe̝ləˈsg̊oːˀb̥ð̩]
Mand-en ser kvind-en bruge teleskop-et
man-DEF see.PRS woman-DEF use telescope-DEF
"The man sees the woman use the telescope" (The woman is using the telescope)
It seems like we have yet another fun layer of ambiguity here. "Using the telescope" could modify "woman" in two ways. The man could see the woman use the telescope. Or the man could see the woman, who happens to be using the telescope, but the man does not see her using it.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by AlphaOnOne » Wed 01 Feb 2012, 22:09

:con: Weika

Uses particles for everything and has particles to avoid ambiguities like this.

Do- indicates possession of a noun by another.

Ro- Indicates how or with what an action is performed.

Orou ga Irakau na kureheh ro Kurjuruu.
Lit: The Man sees the Woman by way of the telescope.

OROU(man) GA(Subject Marker) IRAKAU(woman) NA(Object Marker) KUREHEH(Sees) RO(Context Particle(by way of)) Kurjuruu(Telescope(lit: sight help))

Orou ga Irakau do Kurjuruu na kureheh.
Lit: The man sees the woman who has in her possession, the telescope.

OROU(man) GA(Subject Marker) IRAKAU(woman) DO(Possessive Particle) KURJURUU(Telescope(lit: sight help)) NA(Object Marker) KUREHEH(Sees)
Native: :eng:
Fluent: :esp:
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A Lot Shaky: :rus: :deu: :fin:

Conlangs: Image Namarį (27)
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Chagen » Tue 07 Feb 2012, 22:31

Pazmat:

CASES:

Qix m thiangto Gjmcex thio
[qix m thi-angto gjmc-ex thi-o]
[Man INSTR see-scope woman-ACC see-3.SGM.DEF]
"The man sees the woman the woman with the telescope." ( the man has the telescope)

Qix Gjmcex m thiangto thio
[qix gjmc-ex m thi-angto thi-o]
[Man woman-ACC INSTR see-scope see-3.SGM.DEF]
"The man sees the woman with the telescope" (the woman has it).

This sentence CANT be ambiguious in Pazmat.
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by vampireshark » Wed 08 Feb 2012, 11:39

Telèmor:

Case 1: The man, using the telescope, sees the woman.
Se barbațe vu sa damina utila linetio.
DEF.M man see.3.PRS DEF.F woman using telescope.GEN.M
[sɛ baɾˈba.t͡sɛ vu sa daˈmi.nɐ uˈti.lɐ liˈne.tjo]

Case 2: The man sees the woman who uses the telescope.
Se barbațe vu sa damina çe* utilisa se linetu.
DEF.M man see.3.PRS DEF.F woman that use.3.PRS.SBJV DEF.M telescope
[sɛ baɾˈba.t͡sɛ vu sa daˈmi.nɐ t͡ʃɛ u.tiˈli.sɐ sɛ liˈne.tu]

Se barbațe vu sa damina utila linetia. (less common)
DEF.M man see.3.PRS DEF.F woman using telescope.GEN.F
[sɛ baɾˈba.t͡sɛ vu sa daˈmi.nɐ uˈti.lɐ liˈne.tjɐ]

As seen, there isn't really a chance for confusion in Telèmor. There are a few other ways of phrasing things, yes, but these are the most common.

*Why doesn't this board support the c-comma?
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Ossicone » Wed 08 Feb 2012, 14:03

What do you mean by c-comma?

o̹ o̜ o, o̓ o͑ o͗ o̦ o̧ ǫ
Edit: If you mean cedilla ç I see it perfectly fine. It might be a font related issue.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by CMunk » Wed 08 Feb 2012, 15:14

Ossicone wrote:What do you mean by c-comma?

o̹ o̜ o, o̓ o͑ o͗ o̦ o̧ ǫ
Edit: If you mean cedilla ç I see it perfectly fine. It might be a font related issue.
I think he wrote a c-cedilla instead of c-comma, because of the incompatibility. They are two very similar letters, and Unicode doesn't distinguish between comma and cedilla (Except - I think - when it comes to s and t).

I wikipedia'd it, and it mentions no c-comma.

But with a combining diacritic it looks like this (ie. ugly):


A similar result can be obtained with an acute accent below (ie. not much better):


And a c-cedilla for contrast:
ç

Heh, funny. In this font the cedilla actually doesn't connect to the c. I'd say go with the cedilla for compatibility.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Globydna » Wed 08 Feb 2012, 16:02

xingoxa wrote:
CMunk wrote:
Unambiguous II:
Manden ser kvinden bruge teleskopet
[ˈmænˀn̩ ˈse̝ɐ̯ˀ ˈkʰʋe̝nn̩ ˈb̥ʁuːu ˌtˢe̝ləˈsg̊oːˀb̥ð̩]
Mand-en ser kvind-en bruge teleskop-et
man-DEF see.PRS woman-DEF use telescope-DEF
"The man sees the woman use the telescope" (The woman is using the telescope)
It seems like we have yet another fun layer of ambiguity here. "Using the telescope" could modify "woman" in two ways. The man could see the woman use the telescope. Or the man could see the woman, who happens to be using the telescope, but the man does not see her using it.
I don't see how you could possibly get that second reading. 'Bruge' is an infintive. The sentence is a raising construction, equivalent to:

Mand-en ser at kvind-en brug-er teleskop-et.
man-DEF see.PRS COMPL woman-DEF use-PRS telescope-DEF
"The man sees that the woman is using the telescope."

Apart from different spelling conventions and phonology, the Norwegian translation would be identical, with the same disambiguation strategies, so I won't bother writing it out. Esperanto, however, is more interesting, as the sentence is not ambiguous:

:epo: Esperanto
1. Alternative with prepositions
1a) La viro vid-as la virino-n per la teleskopo.
DEF man see-PRS DEF woman-ACC INS DEF telescope
"The man sees the woman by means of the telescope." (The man has the telescope.)

1b) La viro vid-as la virino-n kun la teleskopo.
DEF man see-PRS DEF woman-ACC COM DEF telescope
"The man sees the woman with the telescope." (The woman has the telescope.)

2. Alternative with verbs
2a) La viro vid-as la virino-n uz-anta la teleskopo-n.
DEF man see-PRS DEF woman-ACC use-PRS.PTCP DEF telescope-ACC
"The man sees the woman using the telescope." (The man has the telescope.)

2b) La viro vid-as la virino-n uz-anta-n la teleskopo-n
DEF man see-PRS DEF woman-ACC use-PRS.PTCP-ACC DEF telescope-ACC
"The man sees the woman using the telescope." (The woman has the telescope.)
Last edited by Globydna on Wed 08 Feb 2012, 16:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by CMunk » Wed 08 Feb 2012, 16:09

Globydna wrote:
xingoxa wrote:
CMunk wrote:
Unambiguous II:
Manden ser kvinden bruge teleskopet
[ˈmænˀn̩ ˈse̝ɐ̯ˀ ˈkʰʋe̝nn̩ ˈb̥ʁuːu ˌtˢe̝ləˈsg̊oːˀb̥ð̩]
Mand-en ser kvind-en bruge teleskop-et
man-DEF see.PRS woman-DEF use telescope-DEF
"The man sees the woman use the telescope" (The woman is using the telescope)
It seems like we have yet another fun layer of ambiguity here. "Using the telescope" could modify "woman" in two ways. The man could see the woman use the telescope. Or the man could see the woman, who happens to be using the telescope, but the man does not see her using it.
I don't see how you could possibly get that second reading. 'Bruge' is an infintive. The sentence is a raising construction, equivalent to:

Mand-en ser at kvind-en brug-er teleskop-et.
man-DEF see.PRS COMPL woman-DEF use-PRS telescope-DEF
"The man sees that the woman is using the telescope."
I think he is referring to the English sentence "The man sees the woman using the telescope", in which - even if from context you know that the woman is using the telescope - you can't tell if the man sees her using it, or simply sees her (without seeing that she is using a telescope).
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by vampireshark » Thu 09 Feb 2012, 14:47

CMunk wrote:
Ossicone wrote:What do you mean by c-comma?

[...]
Edit: If you mean cedilla ç I see it perfectly fine. It might be a font related issue.
I think he wrote a c-cedilla instead of c-comma, because of the incompatibility. They are two very similar letters, and Unicode doesn't distinguish between comma and cedilla (Except - I think - when it comes to s and t).

I wikipedia'd it, and it mentions no c-comma.

[...]

Heh, funny. In this font the cedilla actually doesn't connect to the c. I'd say go with the cedilla for compatibility.
For Telèmor, I chose to use the Romanian usage of s-comma for /ʃ/ and t-comma for /ts/. I also have /t͡ʃ/, and, for consistency, I wanted c-comma for that sound; however, funny things happen when I try to use combining diacritics on this board. Thus, as a workaround, I use c-cedilla for /t͡ʃ/. (Perhaps it is a font-related issue...)
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