The man sees the woman using the telescope.

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Omzinesý
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Omzinesý » Thu 23 Feb 2012, 19:22

In Yosur, one topic can take several coreferential clauses.

So, if the man is a topic.
- The man, he sees the woman, he uses the telescope.

Adams, strim svbdi, tilesgum ndi.
[ɐdäm strɨ̃ ʃp˺tɨ t'ïləskum ndɨ]
adams str-im sv-bd-i tilisgum nd-i
manNOM woman-ACC.DEF her-see-ANIM telescope.INDEF.ACC use-ANIM

If the second clause is coreferential with an argument of the first clause, it must be made a relative clause. The Yosur relative pronoun is /l/ and it's clitisezed in the verb.
- The man, he sees the woman who uses the telescope.

Adams, strim svbdi tilesgum ndil.
[ɐdäm strɨ̃ ʃp˺tɨ t'ïləskum ndɨl]
adams str-im sv-bd-i tilisgum nd-i-l
manNOM woman-ACC.DEF her-see-ANIM telescope.INDEF.ACC use-ANIM-REL.NOM
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by thetha » Fri 24 Feb 2012, 04:06

:nav: Navajo

The man is using the telescope:
Asdzání yiyiiłtsééhígíí biniiyé hastiin bii’ ádéest’į́į́’ choyooł’į́.
woman=one.who 3S.sees.3S-IMP=the.act.of for.the.purpose.of.3S man telescope 3S.uses.3S-IMP

The woman is using the telescope:
Asdzání bii’ ádéest’į́į́’ choyooł’į́ hastiin yiyiiłtsééh.
woman=one.who telescope 3S.uses.3S-IMP man 3S.sees.3S-IMP

Navajo is weird.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Selinki » Mon 27 Feb 2012, 17:11

WHOA! When I started to think about it - it is a nice challenge.

:con: Selinki lyndy (in Selinki) :est: Eesti keeles (in Estonian)

The first reaction was to write word-to-word translation:
:con: Czejd ovile cejd kautelag stjoso-oviceu
Man-NOM see-3SG.PRS woman-ACC.SG use-??? telescope-ACC.SG
:est: Mees näeb naist kasutades teleskoopi
Man-NOM see-3SG.PRS woman-SG.(partitive) use-??? telescope-SG.(partitive)
It is a mission impossible to find, what corresponds to Selinki LAG-form = Estonian DES-vorm. "Kautelag" = "kasutades" can be translated to something like "by using" or "while using". It is clear, that man is using the telescope. ("The man sees the woman by using the telescope"). Though, a COMMA is missing.

Placing a comma, the sentence goes into two parts and the whole intonation changes - the first one tells, who sees who (thanks to word order in Selinki, because sadly "cerf" is one of the words, that remain in the same form in accusative, as it is in nominative) and the other part explains, how he sees her. So it is the man, who uses:
:con: Czejd ovile cejd, kautelag stjoso-oviceu
Man-NOM see-3SG.PRS woman-ACC.SG (by using?) telescope-ACC.SG
:est: Mees näeb naist, kasutades teleskoopi
Man-NOM see-3SG.PRS woman-SG.(partitive), (by using?) telescope-SG.(partitive)

There is also another way to construct that sentence, trying not to use comma:
:con: Czejd ovile stjoso-oviceu kautelenki cejd
Man-NOM see-3SG.PRS telescope-ACC.SG use-PTCP.PRS.NOM woman-ACC.SG.
:est: Mees näeb teleskoopi kasutavat naist
Man-NOM see-3SG.PRS telescope-SG.(partitive) use-PTCP.PRS.(partitive) woman-SG.(partitive)
This one makes it really clear, who is using telescope, because when making a participle of a verb, at least in Selinki the result is an adjective and in this sentence the adjective describes the woman, so it's the woman, who uses. In english the sentence would sound "The man sees the telescope-using woman"

And even more:
:con: Czejd ovile cejd kautely stjoso-oviceu
Man-NOM see-3SG.PRS woman-ACC.SG use-LOC telescope-ACC.SG
:est: Mees näeb naist kasutamas teleskoopi
Man-NOM see-3SG.PRS woman-SG.(partitive) use-(inessive) telescope-SG.(partitive)
Yes, it is possible to declinate a verb. So we get "The man sees the woman in use of the telescope". So, the man sees. Though, in estonian, better word order would be "Mees näeb naist teleskoopi kasutamas"

I think that making other versions would make the sentence too different from the original. So let's stop here, my head is a mess! [xD]
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Ralph » Sat 10 Mar 2012, 14:18

Thought I'd have a go at this to help me work out some more Kantaranyan syntax:

Version 1 (the man is using the telescope):

:con: Yehi avieh taxaikupa hani xayi
[ˈʝehi ˌʔawiˈʔeʔ taˌʃaʔiˈkupa ˈhani ˈʃaji]
yehi avieh ta-xai-kupa hani<∅> xayi
man woman ANTIP-see.IPFV.DIRECT-tube use<IPFV.DIRECT> see.PFV.DIRECT

Version 2 (the woman is using the telescope):

:con: Yehi taxaikupa hani avieh xayi
[ˈʝehi taˌʃaʔiˈkupa ˈhani ˌʔawiˈʔeʔ ˈʃaji]
yehi ta-xai-kupa hani<∅> avieh xayi
man ANTIP-see.IPFV.DIRECT-tube use<IPFV.DIRECT> woman see.PFV.DIRECT

Basically the difference is in what 'taxaikupa hani' (using the telescope) is modifying: in the first, it modifies the verb, while in the second it modifies the noun 'woman'.

(I've also decided to modify a few bits on Kantaranyan morphology, such as how the antipassive is formed.)
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Omzinesý » Wed 21 Mar 2012, 19:42

I could :fin: suomentaa these too.

The man uses the teleskope

-With a shortened clause
Mies näkee naisen käyttäen kaukoputkea.
mies näkee naise-n käyttä-en kaukoputkea.
man sees woman-ACC use-INF.II.INSTR telescope

- Just with an instrument
Mies näkee naisen kaukoputkella.
mies näkee naise-n kaukoputke-lla
man seen woman-ACC telescope-ADESS

-With a relative clause
Mies, joka käyttää kaukoputkea, näkee naisen.
man that uses telescope sees woman

-With a participle
Kaukoputkea käyttävä mies näkee naisen.
kaukoputkea käyttä-vä mies näkee naise-n.
telescope use-PRES.ACT.PARTIC man sees woman-ACC

The woman uses the telescope

- With a shortened clause
Mies näkee naisen käyttävän kaukoputkea.
mies näkee naise-n käyttä-vä-n kaukoputkea.
man sees woman-GEN use-PRES.ACT.PARTIC-INSTR telescope

- With a shortened clause
Mies näkee naisen käyttämässä kaukoputkea.
mies näkee naise-n käyttä-mä-ssä kaukoputkea.
man sees woman-ACC use-INF.III-INESS telescope

- With a relative clause
Mies näkee naisen, joka käyttää kaukoputkea.
mies näkee naise-n joka käyttää kaukoputkea.
man sees woman-ACC that uses telescope

- With a participle
Mies näkee kaukoputkea käyttävän naisen.
mies näkee kaukoputkea käyttä-vä-n naise-n
man sees telescope use-PRES.ACT.PARTIC-ACC woman-ACC
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Ilaeriu » Fri 30 Mar 2012, 08:20

Pretty sure there can be no ambiguity when written in Korean. In the first example, the particle -로 is added onto the noun "telescope" which I'm pretty sure is some sort of instrumentative marker, instead of using the word "using". In the second example, the "woman using the telescope" becomes a noun phrase with the verb predicate becoming a adjective that modifies the noun woman, similar to the Japanese and Mandarin example someone posted earlier.

:kor: 남자가 망원경으로 여자를 본다.
namja-ga mangwongyung-euro yoja-reul bo-nda
man-SUBJ telescope-INSTRUMENTATIVE woman-OBJ see-PRES

남자가 망원경 사용하는 여자를 본다.
namja-ga mangwongyung sayongha-neun yoja-reul bo-nda
man-SUBJ telescope use-ADJ woman-OBJ see-PRES
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Chagen » Sun 14 Apr 2013, 23:45

Chagen wrote:Pazmat:

CASES:

Qix m thiangto Gjmcex thio
[qix m thi-angto gjmc-ex thi-o]
[Man INSTR see-scope woman-ACC see-3.SGM.DEF]
"The man sees the woman the woman with the telescope." ( the man has the telescope)

Qix Gjmcex m thiangto thio
[qix gjmc-ex m thi-angto thi-o]
[Man woman-ACC INSTR see-scope see-3.SGM.DEF]
"The man sees the woman with the telescope" (the woman has it).

This sentence CANT be ambiguious in Pazmat.
I might as well update this with how Pazmat does it now:

The man has the telescope:
Qix, nac Thiangt, Gjmcos thio.
man, by see-scope, woman-ACC see-3RDM

The woman has it:
Qix Gjmcos m Thiangt thio.
man woman-ACC with see-scope see-3RDM

Pazmat distinguishes between comitative "with" and instrumental "with", so, once again, this cannot be ambiguious.
Last edited by Chagen on Mon 15 Apr 2013, 19:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by atman » Mon 15 Apr 2013, 09:22

Atlantika's synthetic syntax simply sidesteps the issue (is it Alliteration Day or what?):

If the man is using the telescope:

Azhros teleskopov gunan vlepe.
/'aʒros ˌtele'skɔpov 'gunan 'vlepe/
man telescope-STR woman-ACC see-3SG


If the woman is using the telescope:

Azhros teleskopon qrahentan gunan vlepe.
/'aʒros ˌtele'skɔpon xɾa'hentan 'gunan 'vlepe/
man telescope-ACC use-PTCP-ACC woman-ACC see-3SG
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Click » Mon 15 Apr 2013, 14:58

:con: Proto-Littoran (the Proto-Littorans didn't have telescopes, but w/e)

Tawrn kuyɨt, ah yiihamɨt as tmi, šuutawi.
man-ERG woman-ACC ADV uncover-NMLZ-ACC do be_used be_seen-CAUS-PRS
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the man uses the telescope to see the woman)

Tawrn, qu yiihamɨt as tmi, kuyɨt šuutawi.
man-ERG REL uncover-NMLZ-ACC do be_used woman-ACC be_seen-CAUS-PRS
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the woman uses the telescope)

:con: Ancient Azunan (the Ancient Azunans didn't have telescopes too, but the Modern Azunans fixed that)

A ṣúnṣúrtsim ṣúdabi taurən cuyət.
ADV be_seen-NEG-be_see-NMLZ-INS be_seen-CAUS-PRS man-ERG woman-ACC
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the man uses the telescope to see the woman)

Ṣúdabi taurən cuyət cəu ṣúnṣúrtsim.
be_seen-CAUS-PRS man-ERG woman-ACC REL be_seen-NEG-be_see-NMLZ-INS
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the woman uses the telescope)

:con: Modern Azunan

Asúbdi taur ko ni amí sósint kait.
3SG-see.PRS man REL PRS 3SG-use telescope-ACC woman-ACC
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the man uses the telescope to see the woman)

Asúbdi taur kait ko ni amí sósint.
3SG-see.PRS man woman-ACC REL PRS 3SG-use telescope-ACC
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the woman uses the telescope)

:con: Cveban
In the first sentence, "using the telescope" modifies "man", and in the second sentence it modifies "woman".

Grváve gžódi fyúra zogar.
far-see-COM man-ERG woman see-3SG-3SG
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the man uses the telescope to see the woman)

Gžódi grváve fyúra zogar.
man-ERG far-see-COM woman see-3SG-3SG
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the woman uses the telescope)

:con: Kaipó
Kaipó uses a prosodic break to disambiguate what would be a relative clause.

Toi siò làni, mo siòtosó.
man see woman | use see-be_far
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the man uses the telescope to see the woman)

Toi siò làni mo siòtosó.
man see woman use be_far
The man sees the woman using the telescope. (the woman uses the telescope)
Last edited by Click on Tue 16 Apr 2013, 06:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Iron » Tue 16 Apr 2013, 00:33

Dvergic:

Muź akit jako źena pjemunit kvuždojačśika.
man see-3SG-PRS how woman use-3SG-PRS star_seer-ACC
"The man sees how the woman uses the telescope."
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Lao Kou » Sat 20 Apr 2013, 06:07

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Chö dhaubs la chöi sasatsöit höi cha klételgínsat chau hinalörsaun tel.
[tʃø 'ðɔbs 'la tʃøj sa'satsøjt høj tʃa 'kletɛl'gĩsat tʃɔ 'hɪna'løɾsɔn 'tɛl]
DEF man-NOM AUX.PRES DEF woman-ACC PTCL DEF telescope-ACC DEF use.PRES.GER-INSTR see
The man sees the woman using the telescope.
(Answers: A) How does the man see the woman? or B) By using the telescope, who does the man see?)

Though I'd be more inclined to just throw "telescope" into the instrumental and call it a day.

Chö dhaubs la chöi sasatsöit höi cha klételgínsat hinalötöit tel.
DEF man-NOM AUX.PRES DEF woman-ACC1 PTCL DEF telescope-ACC2 use.PRES.PTPL-ACC1 see
The man sees the woman using the telescope.
(Answers: Who/What does the man see?)

Chö dhaubs la höi cha klételgínsat chau hinalörsaut cha sasatsöis tel.
DEF man-NOM AUX.PRES PTCL DEF telescope-ACC DEF use.PRES.GER-ACC DEF woman-GEN see
The man sees the woman using the telescope.
(Answers: What does the man see the woman doing?)
Last edited by Lao Kou on Fri 18 Mar 2016, 05:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by prettydragoon » Sun 21 Apr 2013, 13:41

:eng: The person sees the other using the telescope.

:con: Rireinutire

kave tosimu kusehimipiña neakave:
kave tosi-mu kusehimipi-ña nea-ka-ve
person.NOM other-ACC telescope-COM see-PRS-HSY

The person sees the other by using the telescope. (more idiomatic expression)

kave tosimu kusehimipina nekeña neakave:
kave tosi-mu kusehimipi-na ne-ke-ña nea-ka-ve
person.NOM other-ACC telescope-PTV use-PRESP-COM see-PRS-HSY

The person sees the other by using the telescope. (with the verb neta 'to use')

kave kusehimipina neke tosimu neakave:
kave kusehimipi-na ne-ke tosi-mu nea-ka-ve
person.NOM telescope-PTV use-PRESP other-ACC see-PRS-HSY

The person sees the other, who is using the telescope.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by abi » Mon 22 Apr 2013, 05:15

:con: Nuqan

Laku teliskupli ūla kitukas.
man telescope-INST woman 3A-3P.see-PRESENT
The man sees the woman with the telescope. (man using telescope)

Laku ūla teliskupke kitukas.
man woman telescope-COM 3A-3P.see-PRESENT
The man sees the woman with the telescope. (woman using telescope)
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Chagen » Wed 21 Aug 2013, 00:57

:con: Azenti:

Ani tacos aź ja thianta ani mulenos ibi rafi.
DEF man INSTR DEF telescope DEF woman GOAL see

Ani tacos ani mulenos pul ja thianta ibi rafi.
DEF man DEF woman COMIT DEF telescope GOAL see

Distinction of comitative and instrumental. No ambiguity here.

You could also do the first sentence like this:

Ani tacos ja thianta dera ani mulenos ibi rafi.
DEF man DEF telescope CAUSE DEF woman GOAL see
"The man because of the telescope saw the woman."
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
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Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by thetha » Wed 21 Aug 2013, 02:25

Taahu!

The man sees [the woman using the telescope] :

yuhksé hméʔírʔídégahé máŋíyaata shááhé máhdén.
man.TOP star=VOL-watch-INAN.NMLZ AN.A-use-ATTR woman AN.A>P=see-REAL

The man sees the woman, using the telescope :

hméʔírʔídégahé máŋíyaaw yuhksé shááhé máhdén.
star=VOL-watch-INAN.NMLZ AN.A-use-LOC man.TOP woman AN.A>P=see-REAL

note 1: the word for telescope basically translates as 'stargazer'
note 2: AN.A>P stands for 'animate agent to animate patient'
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by zyx3166 » Wed 21 Aug 2013, 18:01

Roguel:

The man sees [the woman using the telescope] :
Yero zarritenkepfajamneke omonta tenek.
man far-EPEN-see-AGENT-use-PROG-3SG-ATTR woman-ACC see-3SG

The man sees the woman, using the telescope :
Zarritenkepfajin yero omonta tenek.
far-EPEN-see-AGENT-use-ADV man woman-ACC see-3SG
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Imralu » Sun 13 Aug 2017, 06:30

:tan: Swahili:

Mwanaume anamwona mwanamke akitumia darubini.
mwanaume a-na-mw-ona mwanamke a-ki-tumia darubini
man(1) 1-PRES-1-see woman(1) 1-SIT-use telescope(9)

The man sees the woman (while s/he is) using a telescope.
(Ambiguous, but I think probably the assumption would be that it was the man using the telescope. I think -ki- generally refers back to the subject of the main clause unless otherwise specified.)

Mwanaume anamwona mwanamke kwa kutumia darubini.
mwanaume a-na-mw-ona mwanamke kwa ku-tumia darubini
man(1) 1-PRES-1-see woman(1) INST INF-use telescope(9)

The man sees the woman (by) using a telescope.

Mwanaume anamwona mwanamke anayetumia darubini.
mwanaume a-na-mw-ona mwanamke a-na-ye-tumia darubini
man(1) 1-PRES-1-see woman(1) 1-PRES-1.REL-use telescope(9)

The man sees the woman (who is) using a telescope.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Parlox » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 22:27

Quite a few of my conlangs don't have a way of showing the distinction, but Delen does have a way of handling it.

:con: Delen

Kaykolla ez enor ang enan anban ez kurkoy.
[kaj-kɤl-la ez enɤɾ aŋ enan an-ban ez kuɾkɤj]
AG.TRIG-see-IMP DIR man IND woman INSTR.TRIG-use DIR telescope
The man sees the woman using a telescope. (The man is using the telescope)

Awkolla ang enor ez enan anban ez kurkoy.
[aw-kɤl-la aŋ enɤɾ ez enan an-ban ez kuɾkɤj]
PT.TRIG-see-IMP IND man DIR woman INSTR.TRIG-use DIR telescope
The man sees the woman using a telescope. (The woman is using the telescope)
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Pabappa » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 04:07

:con: Poswa

sabas "man"
paefam "woman"
ma "to see"
pažampapwu "telescope"

Sabas paefios pažampapwa va.
man woman-GEN telescope-3pres see-3pres.
The man sees the woman (who is) using the telescope.

It bothers me a little bit that I dont have case echoing for the modifiers of case-marked nouns, as do most languages ... it just feels wrong to not have it, but if I add it it will cause problems in other areas such as case-stacking.

"to see" is an intransitive verb, so its object is placed in the genitive case rather than the accusative.

Sabas paefios pažampapwub va.
man woman-GEN telescope-INSTR see-3pres.
The man sees the woman by using the telescope.

No ambiguity here ... though the second sentence could be used for the first sentence's meaning and still be grammatical. It would be the equivalent, roughly, of in English saying "The man sees the telescope-using woman", since what changes is not the person marker but the matter of whether it is a verb or a case-marked noun that is used.

Oh in case anyone was curious, pažampapwu "telescope" is paža "place far away" + mapa "to spy on, watch intently" + pwu "that by which". The final vowel could rotate to /o/, /e/, or /a/ for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person possession, though in this case, doing so would not resolve any potential ambiguity because Poswa does not mark gender on the verb.

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Edit: minor errors
Last edited by Pabappa on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 06:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Post by Anarel » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 04:57

The man sees the woman using the telescope.

Ikāezin

no-Zûnu Īalte na-Semēre-Īaltahônirik-Zēishinēt
[no zu:nu i:alte na seme:ɾe i:altaho:niɾik ze:iʃine:t]
the-ART.SG.MASC man-NOM see-2SG.PRES.IND the-ART.SG.FEM woman-GEN telescope-INSTR CONTINUITY MARK-use-INF
The man sees the woman together with the telescope using

In Ikāezin this is expressed through a subordinate clause with the verb in infinitive.
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