Lots of clauses

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Fleur
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Lots of clauses

Post by Fleur » Thu 20 Dec 2012, 23:55

Not sure if anything like this has been done before.
Eitherway, it is still quite fun ;3

:eng: The man that eats the food that is on the table that is made of wood that was chopped from a tree that was in a forest that was in South America is sleeping.

Image Ejnoq
Al Pokonad, das an Edibos, das u ad Tidja, das na Pampit, das na Arbo, das el Arbodliq, das el Amerika Sut fauredj, fauredj, bernandatedj dila, döqedj, faur, verfant, sjlaved.
DEF-NOM man CNJ DEF-ACC food CNJ PREP DEF-LOC table CNJ PREP wood CNJ PREP tree CNJ PREP forest CNJ PREP america south be-PAST be-PAST chop-PAST PASSIVE make-PAST be eat sleep
/a:l pokona:d da:s æn ɛdi:bos da:s u: æd ti:ʒə da:s na: pampi:t da:s na: a:rbo da:s ɛl a:rbodli:x da:s ɛl a:mɛri:kə su:t faʊərɛʒ faʊərɛʒ bernanda:tɛʒ di:la: djoxɛʒ faʊər verfant ʃla:vɛd

As you can see, lots of clauses in an Ejnoq sentence can become very confusing.
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 21 Dec 2012, 01:50

I believe I'm on record as asking people to translate "This is the House that Jack Built" into their 'langs. :eng: This is the horse and the hound and the horn
That belonged to the farmer, sowing his corn
That kept the cock that crowed in the morn
That woke the priest, all shaven and shorn
That married the man, all tattered and torn
That kissed the maiden, all forlorn
That milked the cow with the crumpled horn
That tossed the dog that worried the cat
That killed the rat that ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.

But your example is shorter, so maybe better.
I guess the point is to have a subordinate clause within a subordinate clause within a subordinate clause (an SC3); if you've got that, you've probably got enough, and you have an SC6.
Jack's last verse, OTOH, has an SC12.
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Prinsessa » Fri 21 Dec 2012, 03:35

Why does it suddenly stop rhyming?
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by xinda » Fri 21 Dec 2012, 05:09

The man that eats the food that is on the table that is made of wood that was chopped from a tree that was in a forest that was in South America is sleeping.

吃從南美洲的樹林砍的樹的木頭做的桌子上的食物的人在睡覺。
chi cong nanmeizhou de shulin kan de shu de mutou zuo de zhuozi shang de shiwu de ren zai shuijiao
[[eat [[[[[from S.America GEN] forest chop GEN] tree GEN] wood make GEN] table upon GEN] food GEN] person] STAT sleep


Chinese just turns everything into a genitive noun phrase that goes from most>least specific.
力在公蝦米????

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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 21 Dec 2012, 23:20

Skógvur wrote:Why does it suddenly stop rhyming?
As well ask "why do the last three lines have two 'that' clauses per line while the rest have only one?"
According to this, we'd have to ask some mid-sixteenth-century English person.
I don't know any; do you?
Well, maybe Ossicone did; she says she's over 300 years old.
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by kiwikami » Sat 29 Dec 2012, 04:18

I’m not going to use HyPry with this one. Instead, I’ll try out a new/old ‘lang I’ve been meaning to come back to and play with. It’s not really build for complicated clauses like this. At all. But it seems to handle them in a… reasonably alright manner.


:con: Culphecc Glyw

Ygefhl'nagl-ga-phafmphec'ph-rrifmlwng-Cthaamerica-cf'ulncrrifmecht-gnfarl-shuykoor ughm fhthagn.
?? HAB-eating-3s.POS- PRESP – ACC – INE-INDF.OBL-forest-INE – made_of-INDF.OBL-tree – south-America – PASS-chop-made_of-wood-DEF.OBL-table – SUPE-INDF.ACC-food DEF.NOM-man sleep-3s . ??
The man that eats the food that is on the table that is made of wood that was chopped from a tree that was in a forest that was in South America is sleeping.


I would rather not provide IPA, because the language's source material indicates that it doesn’t have a known (at least, pronounceable to humans) phonology, and I’ve decided not to create one.
Last edited by kiwikami on Sun 08 Oct 2017, 05:46, edited 1 time in total.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Lambuzhao » Sat 29 Dec 2012, 06:33

Skógvur wrote:Why does it suddenly stop rhyming?
Juqqi, Vangadróttin!
Excellent question!

Apart from Eldin's rightful suggestion, I see no reason why there shouldn't be some kind of
epithet for either the dog, cat, rat or malt.

For instance,
why could there not have been lines like-

"that tossed the dog with ire and scorn"
"that worried the cat with nerves all worn"
"that killed the rat by all foresworn"
"that ate the malt of flour corn"

or something like that?

:?: :?: .... :?:

The answer is prolly.... not enough /orn/ words (Esp. adjectives/PTCPS)
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by eldin raigmore » Sat 29 Dec 2012, 18:00

Lambuzhao wrote:I see no reason why there shouldn't be some kind of
epithet for either the dog, cat, rat or malt.

For instance,
why could there not have been lines like-

"that tossed the dog with ire and scorn"
"that worried the cat with nerves all worn"
"that killed the rat by all foresworn"
"that ate the malt of flour corn"
That's all pretty good IMO; except that malt is made from barley, not wheat (though there is such a thing as "wheat beer", and whiskey can be made from several grains including rye, wheat, or maize.)

Maybe
"...
that ate the malt of barleycorn
that lay in the house beside the bourne
that Jack built. " ?

See
http://www.onelook.com/?loc=rz4&w=*orn&scwo=1&sswo=1.
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterbourne_%28stream%29
Also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Road_%28France%29
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by zyx3166 » Thu 29 Aug 2013, 14:16

The man that eats the food that is on the table that is made of wood that was chopped from a tree that was in a forest that was in South America is sleeping.
Roguel:
Jiutanamerikadellteke llulukdellteke nonbik cutpeteke sakijo hanypeteke mesataledellteke jentecjente yero odamnek.
South.America-LOC-exist-3SG-ATTR forest-LOC-exist-3SG-ATTR tree-ABL chop-PASS-3SG-ATTR wood-INST make-PASS-3SG-ATTR desk-GEN-top-LOC-exist-3SG-ATTR food-eat-ATTR man sleep-PROG-3SG
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Imralu » Sun 01 Oct 2017, 05:51

:tan: Swahili:

There are two main ways to do this in Swahili. The more elegant way is used more in writing and the simpler, longer way is used more in speaking.

Written:
Mwanaume anayekula chakula kilichopo juu ya meza iliyotengenezwa kwa mbao zilizokatwa kutoka mti uliokuwa katika msitu uliokuwa barani Amerika Kusini amelala.
mwanaume a-na-ye-ku-l-a chakula ki-li-cho-po juu y-a meza i-li-yo-tengenez-w-a kwa mbao zi-li-zo-kat-w-a ku-tok-a mti u-li-o-ku-w-a katika msitu u-li-o-ku-w-a bara-ni Amerika Kusini a-na-lal-a
man(1) 1-PRES-1.REL-EXT-eat-Ø food(7) 7-REL.COP-7.REL-LOC.16 top(9) 9-GEN table(9) 9-PST-9.REL-manufacture-PASS-Ø INST wood(10) 10-PST-10.REL-cut-PASS-Ø INF/GER(15)-exit-Ø tree(3) 3-PST-3.REL-EXT-be-Ø LOC forest(3) 3-PST-3.REL-EXT-be-Ø continent-LOC America(continent) South 1-PRF-fall.asleep-Ø

The man who eats the food which is on the table which was made of wood which was cut from a tree which was in a forest which was in South America is asleep.

Spoken:
Mwanaume ambaye anakula chakula ambacho kipo juu ya meza ambayo imetengenzwa kwa mbao ambazo zilikatwa kutoka mti ambao ulikuwa katika msitu ambao ulikuwa barani Amerika Kusini amelala.
mwanaume amba-ye a-na-ku-l-a chakula amba-cho ki-po juu y-a meza amba-yo i-me-tengenez-w-a kwa mbao amba-zo zi-li-kat-w-a kutoka mti amba-o u-li-ku-w-a katika msitu amba-o u-li-ku-w-a barani Amerika Kusini a-me-lal-a
man(1) REL-1.REL 1-PRES-EXT-eat-Ø food(7) food(7) REL-7.REL 7-LOC.16 top(9) 9-GEN table(9) REL-9.REL 9-PRF-manufacture-PASS-Ø INST wood(10) REL-10.REL 10-PST-cut-PASS-Ø INF/GER(15)-exit-Ø tree(3) REL-3.REL 3-PST-EXT-be-Ø LOC forest(3) REL-3.REL 3-PST-EXT-be-Ø continent-LOC America(continent) South 1-PRF-fall.asleep-Ø

The man who eats the food which is on the table which "has been" made of wood which was cut from a tree which was in a forest which was in South America is asleep.

In case anyone actually really closely looks at these, the reason there's the perfect tense imetengenzwa in the second one and the past iliyotengenezwa in the first one is because the perfect cannot be used with relative prefixes (there is no *imeyotengenezwa) and when marking the relative directly on the verb, it's replaced with the past. When the perfect is available, I think it fits here better because the meaning is that the table is wooden at the present time rather than focusing on the past making ... but I may be wrong and this may sound as weird as it does in English, in which case nvm
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Salmoneus » Sun 01 Oct 2017, 17:39

Prinsessa wrote:Why does it suddenly stop rhyming?
A somewhat delayed answer, but: this is not accidental. Cumulative songs very often do this. From a narrative point of view, it's because the 'story' begins as though it were a realistic comment, and turns into poetry as it becomes ridiculous. From a transmission point of view, it's because the most often repeated lines are most memorable, while the less repeated lines at the 'top' (or end) of the song need the reinforcement of a stricter rhyme and rhythm. From a musical and poetical point of view, it's probably primarily because the whole point of the genre is that the final lines provide a musically distinct phrase repeating at increasing intervals, and if the conclusion continued the rhyme and rhythm of the rest of the song, it would be less memorable. The breakdown of the formal structure also conveys a humorous chaos, making it funner to recite - notably, it's common for the climax of such poems to go at a faster rhythm, either by having longer lines in the same time, or by making the rhyming or rhythmic periods shorter (here, by clusters two clauses to a line and rhyming 'cat' and 'ate' only half a line apart).

Very much the same thing happens in the even more famous song in the genre, "The Twelve Days of Christmas", which has a very clear distinction between the metric and non-metric sections:
On the twelfth day of Christmas, my true love sent to me:
Twelve drummers drumming,
eleven pipers piping,
ten lords a-leaping,
nine ladies dancing,
eight maids a-milking,
seven swans a-swimming,
six geese a-laying

FIVE - GOLD - RINGS!
(four calling birds,
three french hens,
two turtle doves
and a partridge in a pear tree!)


And similarly:

She swallowed the cow to catch the goat,
She swallowed the goat to catch the dog,
She swallowed the dog to catch the cat,
She swallowed the cat to catch the bird,
She swallowed the bird to catch the spider;

That wriggled and jiggled and tickled inside her!
She swallowed the spider to catch the fly;
I don't know why she swallowed a fly
Perhaps she'll die!
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Alessio » Mon 02 Oct 2017, 10:26

In Italian, there is a famous song by Angelo Branduardi called "La fiera dell'est" (the fair/exposition of the East), which starts with:

Alla fiera dell'est, per due soldi un topolino mio padre comprò.
which means: at the exposition of the East, my father bought a little mouse for a couple of pence.
(ignore the word order, as it's a bit scrambled to fit the metrics of the song)

But then, a cat eats that mouse:
E venne il gatto che si mangiò il topo che al mercato mio padre comprò.
(and a cat came and ate the mouse that my father [had] bought at the market)

Then, a dog bites the cat:
E venne il cane che morse il gatto che si mangiò il topo che al mercato mio padre comprò.
(and a cat came and bit the cat who ate the mouse that my father [had] bought at the market)

The song goes on with a stick beating the dog, then fire burning the stick, water extinguishing the fire, a bull drinking the water, a butcher killing the bull, Death killing the butcher and God talking to death. Every time the whole situation is stated in a recursive fashion, so the last part says:

E infine il Signore sull'angelo della morte sul macellaio che uccise il toro che bevve l'acqua che spense il fuoco che bruciò il bastone che picchiò il cane che morse il gatto che si mangiò il topo che al mercato mio padre comprò.
(and finally God on Death on the butcher who killed the bull that drank the water that extinguished the fire that burnt the stick that beat the dog that bit the cat that ate the mouse that my father bought at the market)

This song has become so popular that whenever someone makes too long a list of clauses, it's very common to hear people adding "che al mercato mio padre comprò" in a mocking way.

Oh, by the way, I'll also translate the sentence into Italian.
:ita: Italiano
L'uomo che mangia il cibo sul tavolo di legno di un albero di una foresta del sud America sta dormendo.
/'lwɔːmo ke 'mandʒa il 'tʃiːbo sul 'tavolo di 'leɲɲo di un 'albero di una fo'rεsta del sud a'mεrika sta dor'mεndo/
lo uomo che mangi-a il cibo su-l tavolo di legno di un albero di una foresta de-l sud America st-a dorm-endo
DEF.MS man REL eat-3SG DEF.MS food on-DEF.MS table of wood of INDEF.M tree of INDEF.F forest of-DEF.MS south America PROGR-3SG sleep-GER


I could avoid using clauses altogether, with a wise usage of the magic preposition di. Here is a version using lots of clauses instead:
L'uomo che mangia il cibo che è sul tavolo che è fatto di legno che è stato preso da un albero che era in una foresta che era in sud America sta dormendo.
You basically just add a lot of "che è" (that is) or "che era" (that was), with some exceptions ("che è stato preso da" = that was taken from, since there is no real way to say "that was chopped from a tree" that wouldn't sound like an awful automatic translation).
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Fluffy8x » Mon 02 Oct 2017, 15:02

In Lek-Tsaro:

dantat tofok welse-ma sil paře-\'amerika-ka'ipa, motël sëdrapë-tofok, mefran hyma 'ïm, makan masa ra, deme1.
be_inside-NEAR.PAST tree forest=POSS GEN domain-America-south, be_destroyed_for-ANAPH_SUB.PAST table-ACC.SG-wood, stand-NEAR food PR.ANAPH_OBJ.SG, eat-NEAR person PR.ANAPH_SUBJ.INT, sleep-PR.ANAPH_SUB-IMPERFECT

TL;DR it doesn't really have relative clauses; instead, it chains clauses with anaphoric pronouns. When things get especially nasty, then the language has a treemode.
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 03:05

Wow! Interest has picked up since 2013! Thanks, guys!
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Iyionaku » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 08:04

:con: Yélian uses some different relative pronouns for different purposes, p.e. téviter for attribution of animate nouns, vit for attribution of inanimate nouns, dès for locational attributes, unúm for absolute locational attributes ("South America") and a few others. However, most of the time the descision is mostly window dressing. A very important structuring element is the intensifier vutret; here, it marks that there will be lots of information of the subject. After all the information, a subject personal pronoun (here: te) is used to emphasize that now the focus is back on the original subject.

A'broya vutret, téviter muyet u'muyér, dès but pas supar, vit murnet bar abar, vit yiabarcut abár, dès yibet pun rapar, unúm bit væ Naramérica, te pureʻet.
[ɐˈbɾoːʃɐ ˈvutɾət ˈteːvɨtəd̟ ˈmuːʃət ʉmʉˈʃeːd̟, dɛs bʉ̆‿pɐs ˈsuːpɐd̟, vɨt ˈmuɾnə̆‿bad̟ ˈabad̟ vɨt ɕɪ̯ɐˈbaɾkʉt ɐˈbaːd̟, dɛs ˈɕiːbə̆‿pʉn ˈɾaːpɐd̟, ʉˈnuːm bɨt və nɐɾɐˈmeːɾɨkɐ, te pʉˈɾeːʔət]
DEF.ANIM=man INT, REL.ANIM.MASC eat-3SG DEF.INAN=food, REL.LOC COP.3SG.INAN on table, REL.INAN consist-3SG of wood, REL.INAN PST-chop-INV.3SG.INAN tree, REL.LOC PST-COP.3SG in wood, REL.ABSLOC COP.3SG.ANIM in South-America, 3SG.MASC.REC sleep-3SG
The man that eats the food that is on the table that is made of wood that was chopped from a tree that was in a forest that was in South America is sleeping.
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


Oh, and there is a [ɕ] in my name!
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 23:11

Iyionaku wrote:..., p.e. ...
Is that the same as "e.g." or "for example"? Is it used in English writing by native speakers of English? If so is it rare? If not which languages is it used in? (I'd guess French would be one.)
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 07 Oct 2017, 05:01

eldin raigmore wrote:Is that the same as "e.g." or "for example"? Is it used in English writing by native speakers of English? If so is it rare? If not which languages is it used in? (I'd guess French would be one.)
I haven't seen it in English, nor have I noticed it in French. For shortening "par exemple", the choice is between "par ex." and "p. ex." But anyway, "for example" is a surprisingly common stumbling block for learners. If I had a dollar for every "per example" I've seen …

While I'm thinking about it, here's a French translation of the challenge:

:fra: French
L'homme qui mange la nourriture qui est sur la table qui est faite en bois qui a été coupé d'un arbre qui était dans une forêt qui était en Amérique du Sud dort.
/lɔm ki mɑ̃ʒ la nu.ʁi.tyʁ ki ɛ syʁ la ta.blə ki ɛ fɛt ɑ̃ bwa ki a e.te ku.pe dœ̃.n‿aʁ.bʁə ki e.tɛ dɑ̃.z‿yn fɔ.ʁɛ ki e.tɛ ɑ̃.n‿a.me.ʁik dy syd dɔʁ/
DEF=man REL-NOM eat.3SG DEF-F food REL-NOM be.3SG on DEF-F table REL-NOM be.3SG make.PST_PTCP-F in wood REL-NOM have.3SG be.PST_PTCP cut-PST_PTCP from=INDEF.M tree REL-NOM be-IPF.3SG in INDEF.F forest REL-NOM be-IPF.3SG in America of-DEF.M south sleep.3SG

The man that eats the food that is on the table that is made of wood that was chopped from a tree that was in a forest that was in South America is sleeping.

:eng: :lat: Romanglic
Male human consuming victuals surmounting table fabricated using ligneous matter severed apart arboreal plant inhabiting Austral American forest rests.

Gah! Spatial prepositions will be the death of me. I haven't figured out a satisfactory way to avoid words like "of", "from" and "away" in the "cut from a tree" part of this sentence because the syntax doesn't allow me to use my usual workarounds, like turning prepositional phrases into adjectives and compounds. In the end, I used "apart" as a preposition, which sounds odd.
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Imralu » Sat 07 Oct 2017, 21:21

Dormouse559 wrote:Gah! Spatial prepositions will be the death of me. I haven't figured out a satisfactory way to avoid words like "of", "from" and "away" in the "cut from a tree" part of this sentence because the syntax doesn't allow me to use my usual workarounds, like turning prepositional phrases into adjectives and compounds. In the end, I used "apart" as a preposition, which sounds odd.
possessed = of
departing = from
distancing = away

??
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 07 Oct 2017, 22:24

Imralu wrote:possessed = of
departing = from
distancing = away

??
Hmm, "departing" might work. Does "severed departing" sound like "cut from" to you?

I thought about "distancing". The readiest use requires "from", though. The transitive use kind of works but changes the frame of reference in this context. If I cut wood from a tree, the tree is stationary and the wood is mobile. But if I cut wood, "distancing" a tree, the tree is mobile and the wood is stationary.

Maybe got carried away listing "of". It does give me a headache as part of compound prepositions, rather than possessives, but none of the phrases I considered for "cut from" included it.
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Re: Lots of clauses

Post by Salmoneus » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 00:51

Dormouse559 wrote:
Imralu wrote:possessed = of
departing = from
distancing = away

??
Hmm, "departing" might work. Does "severed departing" sound like "cut from" to you?

I thought about "distancing". The readiest use requires "from", though. The transitive use kind of works but changes the frame of reference in this context. If I cut wood from a tree, the tree is stationary and the wood is mobile. But if I cut wood, "distancing" a tree, the tree is mobile and the wood is stationary.

Maybe got carried away listing "of". It does give me a headache as part of compound prepositions, rather than possessives, but none of the phrases I considered for "cut from" included it.
I don't understand the details of this game. But if you're having trouble directly 'translating' English prepositions, why not just use a syntax that relies less on them?
For instance, instead of saying "I cut the branch from the tree", why not say "I obtained the branch, cutting the tree"? [Or "I obtained the tree's branch, cutting", or "I robbed the tree, cutting the branch", or "The tree yielded me a branch, cutting", etc]. That seems the logical approach to the problem.
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