"Stand out of my light"

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"Stand out of my light"

Post by marvelous » Sun 25 Sep 2016, 10:46

Reportedly said by Diogenes to Alexander the Great. In reading about it, I noticed that the Greek and English ways of saying this were very different, though I would also say it somewhat differently in my dialect of English: "get out of my sunlight."

:grc: Ancient Greek

ἀποσκότησόν μου
/aposko'tɛːsuːmuː/
ἀπο-σκότ-ησόν=μου (apo-skot-ēsū=mū)
away.from-sight.is.darkened-2SG.AOR.IMP.ACT=PRO.1S.GEN

:eng: English

Stand out of my light.
/stænd aʊt ʌv maɪ laɪt/
stand out of my light
stand.IMP out PREP.GEN PRO.1S.POS.ADJ light.SG

Get out of my sunlight.
/gɪt aʊt ʌv maɪ 'sʌnˌlaɪt/
get out of my sun-light
get.IMP out PREP.GEN PRO.1S.POS.ADJ sun.SG-light.SG

:epo: Esperanto (translation by Kabe)

Ne kovru al mi la sunon.
/ne 'kovru al mi la 'sunon/
ne kovr-u al mi la suno-n
NEG cover-IMP PREP.DAT PRO.1S.NOM ART.DEF sun-ACC

:tlh: Beginner's attempt at a Klingon translation

julwIj yIwaQbe’choH.
/'d͡ʒulwɪd͡ʒ jɪ'wɑq͡χbɛʔt͡ʃox/
jul-wIj yI-waQ-be’-choH.
sun-POS.1SG.NR IMP.2S>3S-obstruct-NEG-INCEP

:lat: Classical Latin (Cicero)

Nunc quidem paululum a sole absis.
/nunk kʷidẽ 'pau̯lulũ a 'sole 'absis
nunc quidem paul-ul-um a sol-e ab-sis.
now at.least little-DIM-ADV PREP.away.from sun-ABL.SG away.from-be.1SG.ACT.SBJ

:con: Interlingua Antic (WIP, still changing)

Te movas a mie sole.
/te 'movas a 'mie 'sole/
te mov-a-s a mi-e sol-e
you.2S.FAM.OBL move-PRSNT.SBJ-2S.FAM away.from my-OBL sunlight-OBL
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Iyionaku » Sun 25 Sep 2016, 15:56

:deu: German

Geh mir aus der Sonne.
[geː miɐ̯ ʔaʊs dɛɐ̯ ˈzɔnə]
go.IMP.2SG 1SG.DAT out_of DEF.FEM.DAT sun
Go out of the sun for me.

:con: Yélian

Vánias iy reo párcaya.
[ˈvaːnjɐs a̯iː ˈrɛ.ɔ ˈpaɾkaʃa]
go_away.JUS.2SG away_from 1SG.POSS sunlight
Go out of my sunlight.

:con: Caelian

Zan bardabyuk Rabye dirdicëv.
[san baɾdaˈbʲʊk raˈbʲɛ dɪrˈdɪçəf]
2SG.NOM sunlight.ELA 1SG.GEN move_by_foot.2SG>3SG-must
Move out of my sunlight.

:con: Anto

Do nu ewejlaw do de da fo sunhel fon!
[tɔ nuː ˈɛwɛɪ̯laʊ̯ tɔ tɛ tɑ fɔ ˈsʊnhɛl fɔn]
2SG IMP go_away 2SG PART 1SG GEN sunlight out_of
Go away, out of my sunlight.

:con: Utseech

Geh bil us dech ônejliken!
[geː bɪɫ ʊs dɛç ˈɔ˞nɛɪ̯lɪkən]
go.IMP.2SG 1SG.OBL out_of DEF.OBL sunlight
Go out of the sun for me.

:con: Bath'aso

E shext ptriktek dnik grdz'hennzizhbe.
[ɛ ʂɛxt ͡ptriktɛk dnik ˈgr̩͡dzhɛnːzɪʐbɛ]
IMP TERM stand-2SG.ABS in sunlight-DAT=1SG.GEN
Stop standing in my sunlight.

The apostroph is a new invention; dunno if I will keep it. It is used to avoid the pronunciation of zh as digraph (which would result in /ʐ/). z and h are from different morphemes here and therefore pronounced /zh/.

:con: Paatherye

A perfect example to finally evaluate the deep possibilities of unpractical High Elfish grammar. [:P]

खड़संता जूदैण, नेड़ दुदूमेज़ ष थि ना जयंफिसेमे फासुड़दूण.
Kharsamtā jūdayn, ner dudūmes șa thi nā jayamphiseme phāsurdūn.

[kʰarˈsamtaː ˈd͡ʒuːdaɪ̯n, neɾ ðuˈðuːmes ʒa tʰi naː ˈd͡ʒaɪ̯amˈpʰiseme pʰaːˈsuɾðuːn]
move.GEDV out_of_way, 1SG.DAT give.IMP.2SG AUX.PP REL.MASC.INAN.ABL 1SG.ACC emblaze.OPT.FUT.3SG light.ABL
By moving aside, give me the sunlight for it may emblaze me.
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Isfendil » Mon 26 Sep 2016, 04:48

:irn: Farsi (Spoken) Az nuram kenār boro!
[Æz nuɾ-æm kɛnɒr bɔɾɔ]
from_light-POS.1SG.ENC.PRON_aside_go.IMP
Get out of my light.

:con: Edyssian
Rauo rêr-enjaîm.
[ɾɑ-wo rɛɾ enjɑ-ɪm.]
go-IMP.2SG from sunlight-1SG.GEN.PRON
Move from my sunlight.

:con: Luyuqii
Nazaku 'an zamsisni
[Nazɐ-ku min zams-ɪs-ni]
go.IMP-2SG.ENC.PRON from sun-GEN.SG-1SG.ENC.PRON
Begat yourself from my sun.
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Lao Kou » Mon 26 Sep 2016, 11:13

Image Géarthnuns

Lots of versions, rather dependent on how in-your-face Diogenes was meant to be (which I don't know), but the most immediate:
:grc: Ancient Greek: ἀποσκότησόν μου
A quite literal translation would be:

Öçek la sív hümenshetöikfin.
2SG-NOM AUX.PRES 1SG-LOC away.shade-IMP
Stand/Get out of my shade.

Understandable, but not the most natural way to express the concept, which suggests that this a quote an educated person should be familiar with if they're going to go with it this way.
:lat: Classical Latin (Cicero): Nunc quidem paululum a sole (absis).
Reading Wikipedia suggests that this gets embellished in retellings (though I did not find a subjunctive absis in my search). Adding other elements like "quidem" and "paululum" might get us closer to what one might say in Géarthnuns in the last two centuries:

Öçek la chö mörauzhvaubsöv spuna'u mva hümenzhrauz.
2SG-NOM AUX.PRES DEF sun.light-LOC little-ADV ADV get.out.of.the.way-IMP
Stand out of my light.
(Why don't you remove yourself a bit from my sunlight.) - not flagrantly rude, but not especially polite, either
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by marvelous » Mon 26 Sep 2016, 12:10

:esp: Spanish

Que te quites del sol.
/ke te kites del sol/
que te quit-es de-l sol.
CONJ.THAT PRO.2S.FAM.ACC snatch-2S.FAM.PRSNT.SBJ from-the sun
"That you get out of way of the sun."

:con: Tasza

Kaszus tabom ní xérnopóse.
/ka'ʂʊs ta'bɔm ni xeɳɔposɛ/
ka-szus ta-bom ní xérno-póse
PRO.1S-GEN sunlight-ABL POST.ABL walk-IMP.2S.ABS
"Walk out of my sunlight."

:con: Pusza

Szhu ħíszo hé ħíraseba.
/ʂʰʊ ħi'ʂɔ he ħiɻa'sɛba/
szhu ħí-szo hé ħíra-se-ba
PRO.1S.LAT light-ABS NEG obstruct-IMP.3S.ABS-2S.FAM.ERG
"Do not obstruct the light on me."
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by marvelous » Mon 26 Sep 2016, 12:29

Lao Kou wrote:Image Géarthnuns

Lots of versions, rather dependent on how in-your-face Diogenes was meant to be (which I don't know)
I always think of him as being very rude, in-your-face, sacrilegious, etc., toward the social elite such as Alexander, which means I wouldn't put ironic politeness out of the realm of possibility in my mind's interpretation of him. Especially as even the delicate manner of Cicero's version doesn't eliminate the dismissiveness and sacrilege of the request itself.
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Lao Kou » Mon 26 Sep 2016, 13:33

marvelous wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:Image Géarthnuns: Lots of versions, rather dependent on how in-your-face Diogenes was meant to be (which I don't know)
I always think of him as being very rude, in-your-face, sacrilegious, etc., toward the social elite such as Alexander, which means I wouldn't put ironic politeness out of the realm of possibility in my mind's interpretation of him. Especially as even the delicate manner of Cicero's version doesn't eliminate the dismissiveness and sacrilege of the request itself.
Indeed, but as your Spanish translation suggests, a subjunctive (albeit "tú"-forms) would cushion the blow or add irony. I don't doubt Diogenes is speaking out of his conventionally appropriate station, but the Greek is a direct aorist imperative; and the Latin I found had no verb (which, without the subjunctive "absis") also seems a tad blunt; Geman and Dutch "du" imperatives make it sound irreverent, but then I also found a French (tu) subjunctive in translation. So the response to Alexander's "What can I get/do (for) you?" could be anything from, "Get the hell out of my sunlight!", to "I'd rather you got out of my sunlight.", to "Gee, it'd be swell if you got out out my sunlight.", and so on. And Alexander's "Gee, I appreciate such candor" vs. "Off with his head!" response suggests that Diogenes strikes the right note (at least to make the point of the story). Géarthnuns can't go Japanese-crazy in nuance here (and doesn't have tu/vous in quite the same way), but there are some options. An imperative with no pronoun and auxiliary would be the lowest of the low; an imperative with a pronoun and auxiliary is the next step up, which is what I used and seemed a direct translation, but makes me extremely uncomfortable for the roles of the speakers (though that's most likely the point). What the effect of the actual Greek is (if it's the actual Greek), as I said, unclear to me, and why the popularized Latin translation adds qualifiers like "nunc", "quidem", and "paululum" (when I'm not sure "ἀποσκότησόν" connotes these things or just makes the Latin a smoother, more natural translation (though I would have though Latin-speakers did "shoot-from-the-hip direct" pretty well)) is also up-for-grabs.
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by marvelous » Mon 26 Sep 2016, 14:50

I think it's a problem with this having been said out loud spontaneously in public rather than recorded*, so there were multiple witnesses who recorded it differently in Ancient Greek to begin with, and then it was repeatedly retold and changed to fit the storyteller and their angle on it. Cicero might have had his own personal motivations for saying things a certain way, in addition to any Roman cultural motives that might have been behind it, and the context for relaying the anecdote. This can also fit conlanging translations for concultures rather well, I think.

* Edit: Assuming it wasn't made up, obviously. Though it still could have originally been made up as an oral anecdote, to split hairs...
Last edited by marvelous on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 18:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by clawgrip » Mon 26 Sep 2016, 15:21

Speaking of Japanese, this seems to have no set translation in Japanese, so people seem to paraphrase it significantly. Some examples I found:

そこをどいてくれ、日が遮られるから。
Soko o doite kure, hi ga saegirareru kara.

there.MED ACC move.away-CONJ give.CONJ, sun NOM obstruct-PASS because
"Move out of the way, because you're blocking the sun."
This one is the most blunt. No honorifics, very conversational. Diogenes does not care at all who Alexander may be.

日差しを妨げぬように、そこをどいてもらいたい。
Hizashi o samatagenu yō ni, soko o doite moraitai.

sunlight ACC disturb-NEG.ATTR way DAT, there.MED ACC move.away-CONJ receive-DES
"I would like it if you could move such that you do not disrupt the sunlight."
This one uses a little bit of formal language and no polite language, but this may be because Diogenes is an ancient person, so they have used formal/archaic wording.

日陰にしないでいただきたい。
Hikage ni shinaide itadakitai.

shade DAT do-NEG-CONJ receive.HBL-DES
"I wish that you would not put me in the shade."
Some humble language here, but it could be ironic. Not sure. Still feels rather blunt with its curtness.

そこに立たれると日陰になるのでどいてほしい。
Soko ni tatareru to hikage ni naru node doite hoshii.

there.MED DAT stand-HON when shade DAT become because move.away-CONJ want
"I want you to move because when you stand there it casts shade."
There is an honorific here directed specifically to Alexander, yet the doite hoshii with no polite or humble language makes it blunt overall.

どうか、わたしを日影におかないでいただきたい。
Dō ka, watashi o hikage ni okanaide itadakitai.

how Q 1 ACC shade DAT place-NEG-CONJ receive.HBL-DES
"I wish that you will find some way not to leave me in shadow."
This one seems rather polite in general.

そこをどいていただくのが望みです。日光が遮られますので。
Soko o doite itadaku no ga nozomi desu. Nikkō ga saegiraremasu node.

there.MED ACC move.away-CONJ receive.HBL N NOM hope COP.POL | sunlight NOM disrupt-POL because
"It is my wish that you move from there. Because you are obstructing the sunlight."
This one has actual polite conjugations (which none of the others have) and uses humble language, suggesting that Diogenes is being rather polite to Alexander. And yet placing the reason last with an unfinished sentence (as is done in the most blunt version above) rather than completing it with more polite/humble language makes it less polite.

あなたがそこに立たれると日陰になるからどいてください。
Anata ga soko ni tatareru to hikage ni naru kara doite kudasai.

2 NOM there.MED DAT stand-HON when shade DAT become because move-CONJ please
Please move, because when you stand there it casts shade."
Fairly polite but still direct. Uses an honorific on Alexander, yet directly requesting him to move.
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by marvelous » Mon 26 Sep 2016, 22:09

Modern Hebrew (found on the Hebrew Wikipedia in the article on Diogenes)

זוז, אתה מסתיר לי את השמש.
/zuz a'ta mas'tiʁ li et ha'ʃemeʃ/
z<u>z at-a <ma>st<i>r-Ø l-i et ha-shemes
move-MASC.2SG.IMP you-MASC hide<PRSNT>-MASC.SG DAT-PRO.1SG PREP.ACC DEF-sun
"Move, you're hiding the sun for me."

:con: Ponkola Lingwash

Ches kovri mia sun.
/t͡ʃeɪs 'koʊvri 'mia sun/
ches-Ø kovr-i mi-a sun-Ø
stop-IMP cover-INF PRO.1S-POS.ADJ sun-NOM.SG
"Stop covering my sun."
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Iyionaku » Tue 27 Sep 2016, 01:35

The German version I wrote was how we learned about Diogenes in school. Wikipedia provides a different one that is slightly more polite:

Geh mir nur ein wenig aus der Sonne!
[geː miɐ̯ nuɐ̯ ʔaɪ̯n ˈveːnɪ̯ç ʔaʊs dɛɐ̯ ˈzɔnə]
go.IMP.2SG 1SG.DAT just INDEF.MASC little out_of DEF.FEM.DAT sun

This one seems to appreciate Alexander's offer, as the modal particle "nur" implies. "nur" in this context (normally "just") seems to work like a diminutive to the imperative and therefore "shrinks" the degree of the order. With this version, Diogenes does not show disrespect to Alexander (like he did in my example), but opposedly highlights his own humility: He is not rude, he is just happy with what he has and only claims for the smallest reward possible.

:fra: French

Ôte-toi de mon soleil.
[otwadəmɔ̃soˈlɛɪ̯]
remove=2SG.OBL of 1SG.POSS>MASC sun

:chn: Mandarin

我希望你闪到一边去,不要遮住我的阳光
Wǒ xīwàng nǐ shǎn dào yībiān qù, bùyào zhēzhù wǒ de yángguāng

[wɔ˦ ɕi˦waŋ˦˨ ni˨˧˦ ʂan˧˨ d̥aʊ̯˦˨ i˨˧˦bi̯ɛn˦ ͡tɕy˦˨, bu˨˧˦jaʊ̯˦˨ ͡tʂə˦ ͡tʂu˦˨ wɔ˧˨ də jaŋ˨˧˦gʊ̯aŋ˦]
1SG hope 2SG ?? get_to and_also go_away, NEG_IMP cover 1SG GEN sunshine

Could someone please explain the function of 闪 in this context? Also I have a little difficulty with 一边. I am just a beginner of Mandarin and sometimes it entangles me fully.
Last edited by Iyionaku on Wed 28 Sep 2016, 01:30, edited 1 time in total.
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Lao Kou » Tue 27 Sep 2016, 11:43

Iyionaku wrote:我希望你闪到一边去,不要遮住我的阳光
Wǒ xīwàng nǐ shǎn dào yībiān qù, bùyào zhēzhù wǒ de yángguāng

Could someone please explain the function of in this context? Also I have a little difficulty with 一边.
The second one first: 到一边去 (dào yībiān qù) -- literally, "(go) to one side" (aka. aside). (shǎn) means "get out of the way", but with its original sense of "flash", the notion of speed is additionally connoted. In other contexts, "dodge" or "duck" might be appropriate. Here, I'm tempted to use "scoot" (even though in English that often suggests making a space). So:

我希望你闪到一边去,不要遮住我的阳光。
I wish you'd move (quickly)/scoot aside, (so as to) not block/obstruct my sunlight.

Not especially polite between strangers, but for the purposes of the anecdote, probably suitable.
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Void » Tue 27 Sep 2016, 21:02

Wołaska

Lebi z sale minomie!
[ˈlebʲi s̩ ˈs̪ale mʲiˈn̪ɔmʲɛ]
leave.2SG-IMP out sun.DAT 1SG.POSS-DAT
Leave my sun!
mihor odh jörhönsüd šarhur zahrastakram

uhra róksud rétthírselle murgga arraukun duhšankatas
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Iyionaku » Wed 28 Sep 2016, 01:28

Lao Kou wrote:
Iyionaku wrote:我希望你闪到一边去,不要遮住我的阳光
Wǒ xīwàng nǐ shǎn dào yībiān qù, bùyào zhēzhù wǒ de yángguāng

Could someone please explain the function of in this context? Also I have a little difficulty with 一边.
The second one first: 到一边去 (dào yībiān qù) -- literally, "(go) to one side" (aka. aside). (shǎn) means "get out of the way", but with its original sense of "flash", the notion of speed is additionally connoted. In other contexts, "dodge" or "duck" might be appropriate. Here, I'm tempted to use "scoot" (even though in English that often suggests making a space). So:

我希望你闪到一边去,不要遮住我的阳光。
I wish you'd move (quickly)/scoot aside, (so as to) not block/obstruct my sunlight.

Not especially polite between strangers, but for the purposes of the anecdote, probably suitable.
Thank you! Yes, "flash", "blink" was what my dictionary gave for 闪. And that left me terribly confused. [xD]
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by GrandPiano » Wed 28 Sep 2016, 02:56

Iyionaku wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:
Iyionaku wrote:我希望你闪到一边去,不要遮住我的阳光
Wǒ xīwàng nǐ shǎn dào yībiān qù, bùyào zhēzhù wǒ de yángguāng

Could someone please explain the function of in this context? Also I have a little difficulty with 一边.
The second one first: 到一边去 (dào yībiān qù) -- literally, "(go) to one side" (aka. aside). (shǎn) means "get out of the way", but with its original sense of "flash", the notion of speed is additionally connoted. In other contexts, "dodge" or "duck" might be appropriate. Here, I'm tempted to use "scoot" (even though in English that often suggests making a space). So:

我希望你闪到一边去,不要遮住我的阳光。
I wish you'd move (quickly)/scoot aside, (so as to) not block/obstruct my sunlight.

Not especially polite between strangers, but for the purposes of the anecdote, probably suitable.
Thank you! Yes, "flash", "blink" was what my dictionary gave for 闪. And that left me terribly confused. [xD]
What dictionary do you use? All of the dictionaries I use include the "dodge" meaning.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Iyionaku » Wed 28 Sep 2016, 04:38

Then feel free to provide those [:D]

I use dict.leo.org/chde/ , but this does not provide any information of how a word is actually used. I can use it to look up German - English words, where I have an appropriate sprachgefühl, but in Chinese it leaves me knowledgeless. For dodge, it provides 逃避, 躲开, 让开 and about 10 more - how should I know what to use? [>_<]

Although it provides at least 躲闪 also.
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Znex » Wed 28 Sep 2016, 06:01

GrandPiano wrote:
Iyionaku wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:
Iyionaku wrote:我希望你闪到一边去,不要遮住我的阳光
Wǒ xīwàng nǐ shǎn dào yībiān qù, bùyào zhēzhù wǒ de yángguāng

Could someone please explain the function of in this context? Also I have a little difficulty with 一边.
The second one first: 到一边去 (dào yībiān qù) -- literally, "(go) to one side" (aka. aside). (shǎn) means "get out of the way", but with its original sense of "flash", the notion of speed is additionally connoted. In other contexts, "dodge" or "duck" might be appropriate. Here, I'm tempted to use "scoot" (even though in English that often suggests making a space). So:

我希望你闪到一边去,不要遮住我的阳光。
I wish you'd move (quickly)/scoot aside, (so as to) not block/obstruct my sunlight.

Not especially polite between strangers, but for the purposes of the anecdote, probably suitable.
Thank you! Yes, "flash", "blink" was what my dictionary gave for 闪. And that left me terribly confused. [xD]
What dictionary do you use? All of the dictionaries I use include the "dodge" meaning.
Speaking of which, is there any English-Chinese dictionary in similar format to the Oxford English Dictionary? There don't seem to be many dictionaries that have example sentences for definitions to show how a given word is used.
:eng: : [tick] | :grc: :wls: : [:|] | :chn: :isr: : [:S] | :nor: :deu: :rom: :ind: :con: : [:x]
Conlangs: Pofp'ash, Ikwawese, Old Quelgic, Nisukil Pʰakwi, Apsiska
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GrandPiano
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by GrandPiano » Wed 28 Sep 2016, 21:30

Iyionaku wrote:Then feel free to provide those [:D]

I use dict.leo.org/chde/ , but this does not provide any information of how a word is actually used. I can use it to look up German - English words, where I have an appropriate sprachgefühl, but in Chinese it leaves me knowledgeless. For dodge, it provides 逃避, 躲开, 让开 and about 10 more - how should I know what to use? [>_<]

Although it provides at least 躲闪 also.
If you're OK wih an English/Chinese dictionary, would recommend MDBG and LINE Dictionary. MDBG is very comprehensive but has no example sentences, while LINE Dictionary isn't quite as comprehensive but has lots of example sentences. LINE Dictionary is also good for finding the right Chinese word to use, since it returns appropriate results for English searches and usually elaborates a little on the differences between different results. If you have an iOS or Android device, I would also recommend Pleco, which is comprehensive and has example sentences.
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:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
Salmoneus
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Salmoneus » Wed 28 Sep 2016, 22:32

marvelous wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:Image Géarthnuns

Lots of versions, rather dependent on how in-your-face Diogenes was meant to be (which I don't know)
I always think of him as being very rude, in-your-face, sacrilegious, etc., toward the social elite such as Alexander, which means I wouldn't put ironic politeness out of the realm of possibility in my mind's interpretation of him. Especially as even the delicate manner of Cicero's version doesn't eliminate the dismissiveness and sacrilege of the request itself.
To be philosophically true, Diogenes should be blunt, but he shouldn't be overtly offensive. He can be ironic and confrontational - see the first lines, "I am Alexander, the great king", "I am Diogenes, the dog" - but he should only be making a point, not trying to piss off Alexander, or to get a laugh. The point Diogenes is making that is often overlooked is about his freedom of speech: he is free to speak how he wishes, regardless of the actions of others. So he should speak as though he feels free to speak plainly and commonly, but if he's trying to offend Alexander, or get the admiration of the crowd, then he's letting Alexander's rank get in the way of what he wants to say himself, even if only in a negative way. [this is the vice Socrates rebuked in Antisthenes: "I can see your vanity through the holes in your clothes"]. [actually, there's a version of this toward Diogenes: Diogenes tramples dirt into Plato's fine carpets, saying "I trample on Plato's pride!", to which Plato replies "yes... with pride of another sort".]

[Diogenes, and cynicism, quickly became associated with extreme poverty and simplicity, which is probably why the focus of Cicero's translation is on the littleness of the request - just a small thing is all he wants from Alexander, who could give him so much. However, a more philosophically accurate interpretation seems to be that the core of cynicism was freedom, with disregard for material goods only an instrument for freeing the mind; this puts the focus more on the liberty Diogenes is taking with Alexander, leading to somewhat more brusque translations. And later on, the story was reinterpreted in a more religious light, with Diogenes asking for the return of his sunlight as something the mortal Alexander cannot give him - in these interpretations, "stand out of my light" isn't a request for him to move to one side, but for him to bugger off, the implication being that Diogenes wants his time back as well, stressing Alexander's impotence in the face of death. In those versions of the story, the proto-Christian Diogenes can be positively contemptuous of the petty majesty of the pagan chieftan Alexander.]

It's also worth remembering that Diogenes isn't actually making a request here, he's answering a question: "what can I do for you?" - so there shouldn't be much overt "would you mind..." question-marking. Something like "you could move out of my sunlight" would probably fit the bill in English.

Of course, if you wanted to be historical about it, it's also worth bearing in mind that if this DID happen, Alexander probably wouldn't have been a monarch at the time. Chances are though that it didn't (and nor did any of these other stories).



Anyway, I've always preferred the other Diogenes-and-monarch story...
One day, when Plato was serving as advisor to the great ruler, Dionysius (on Sicily), he happened to take a shortcut through the palace kitchens, and was shocked to see the famous philosopher Diogenes working away, washing lettuce leaves.
"Oh, my dear Diogenes!" says Plato, saddened at the sight of the great (but foolish) sage. "If only you were able to be polite to kings, you wouldn't have to spend your days washing lettuce."
"Plato," says Diogenes, equally sadly, sighing and shaking his head, "if only you were able to wash lettuce leaves, you wouldn't have to be polite to kings."

Of course, which story you like depends on who you want Diogenes to be...
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Parlox
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Re: "Stand out of my light"

Post by Parlox » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 20:52

Pod
Yn ókodpódput linó.
IMP me.ACC-GEN-ABL light
Stand out of my light(lit, Be moving away from my light)
My main conlangs are Podmåri, and Gwynwth.
i have several other smaller conlangs, such as Tänggorosepero , Makǔdorın, La Patagonê, and Nòvgraďà.
Along with a unnamed sign language, and multiple conlangs that are on hold.
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