A Germanic Translation Comparison

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Creyeditor
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 22 Dec 2016, 01:01

Wow, I didn't know about the Franks, nice [:)] I think the language I used above will be Old Sperenjas and I will start working on some Middle Sperenjas.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Rosenkohl » Thu 22 Dec 2016, 21:00

Creyeditor wrote:This is my Germlang. I don't think it belongs to any established subfamily, but it shares some properties Old Saxon, Old Norse and Gothic. It has some unique innovations though.

1. Sang emenas rikes vatvareng ja sang makares valzang ja es menommeng no azjanang skolom
/səŋ emenəs rikəs vatvəreŋ jə səŋ makəres valzəŋ jə es menomːeŋ no azjənəŋ skolom/
[sə.ŋ‿ˈe.mɜns ˈriks ˈvat.vrɜŋ jə səŋ ˈma.krɜs ˈval.zəŋ j‿ɜs ˈme.nɞm.ːɜŋ nɞ ˈa.ʒəŋ ˈsko.lɞm]
sa-ng emenas rike-s vatv-are-ng ja makare-s valz-ang ja es men-omme-ng no azj-anang skol-om
3SG.M-ACC heaven-GEN.SG kingdom-GEN.SG guard-NMLZ.A-ACC.SG and creator-GEN.SG might-ACC.SG and 3SG.GEN mean-NMLZ.ABSTR-ACC.SG now praise-INF should-1SG.PRS
'Now we should praise the warden of the kingdom of heaven, the might of the creator and his purpose'

8. Grone satelonez eno blivam svef-anze rese.
/grone satelonez eno blivəm svefənze rese/
[ˈgro.nɜ ˈsa.tɜ.lɞ.nɜ.z‿ɜ.nɞ ˈbli.vəm ˈsve.fən.zɜ ˈre.sɜ]
gron-e sat-elon-ez eno bliv-am svef-anze res-e
green-PL thought-DIM-PL without colour-PL.DAT sleep-3PL.SG angry-ADVLZ
'Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.'

13. Mino monzo lese en a varmong
/mino monzo lese en a varmoŋ/
[mi.nɞ mon.zɞ le.sɜ ː.n‿a var.mɞŋ]
min-o hand le-se en a varm-o-ng.
1SG.POR-F.PUM COP.LOC-3SG.PRS in water warm-F.SG-ACC
'My hand is in warm water.'

If you have an oppinion on it, feel free to tell me.
What caught my eye right away were these light ("monomoraic") stressed syllables, especially in an older Germanic language. Generally, the absence of long vowels is very striking. Not at all odd if the language is syllable-timed instead of stress-timed (this might also help explain why Icelandic has resisted unstressed vowel reduction), but it is rare for Germanic languages, at least in native words.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 22 Dec 2016, 21:54

Good point! I can think of at least three ways of having long vowels:
  • Keep them from PG (I am very reluctant to do this, because I used the difference for some other processes)
  • Have some compensatory lengthening with deleted *h and *j.
  • Lengthen stressed open syllables.
  • A combination thereof.
What do you think would be a good solution?
Edit: Sorry for hijacking the thread.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Rosenkohl » Thu 22 Dec 2016, 22:51

Creyeditor wrote:Good point! I can think of at least three ways of having long vowels:
I wasn't saying you must have them, simply pointing out that it caught my eye. There's nothing wrong with a paradigm shift! Maybe the Sprachbund favours languages without long vowels? Maybe you want to make it heavily syllable-timed because reasons? Out of curiosity, what happens with the PGmc diphthongs?
  • Keep them from PG (I am very reluctant to do this, because I used the difference for some other processes)
Note that PGmc itself wasn't that Germanic-like in this respect. The distribution of long vs. short vowels was mostly based on direct PIE reflexes and other minor phonological processes, such as the compensatory lengthening of nasals in words like PGmc *þanhtaz > late PGmc *þāhtaz.
  • Have some compensatory lengthening with deleted *h and *j.
This is perfectly valid, but not really enough to account for very many vowels.
  • Lengthen stressed open syllables.
This is more like the 'classic' Germanic approach, but far from straightforward. There is plenty of evidence that open-syllable lengthening wasn't itself active in Proto-Germanic times, it's much more of a latish mediaeval thing. Moreover, it applied somewhat irregularly (esp. in high vowels); cf. the resilient short vowel in *skipą > OE shipu > ME ship, versus the one in *manō > OE manu > ME mane. Note also this is usually coupled with closed-syllable shortening (not always though).
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Creyeditor » Fri 23 Dec 2016, 00:27

Thanks for all your advises.
Rosenkohl wrote:Out of curiosity, what happens with the PGmc diphthongs?
They coalesce, often into front rounded vowels, but these change to front vowels in the later development. Here are the relevant sound changes:
Spoiler:
ɑu -> o
ɑi > e
eu > ø
iu > y
ɔːu > uː
ɔːi > øː
ɛːu > øː
ɛːi > eː
long vowels -> tense vowel
short vowels -> lax vowels
ʏ > ɪ
œ > ɛ
ø > e
ɪ > e
ʊ > o
ɛ > e
summary:
ɑi, eu, iu, ɔːi, ɛːu, ɛːi > e
ɔːu > u
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Void » Fri 23 Dec 2016, 15:44

Felt like translating the sentences into Gothic. I've some understand of Gothic, though not fluent.

Nu skuleima hazjan ward himinareikjis, maht gaskapjandis jah is mundrein.
Now we should praise the warden of the kingdom of heaven, the might of the creator and his purpose.

Ƕadre aiƕs uslai‏þ? Ƕadre reidja? Ƕadre huzdagibands? Ƕar stolos at dauht sind? Ƕar gabaur at saliþwos?
Where is the horse gone? Where the rider? Where the giver of treasure? Where are the seats at the feast? Where are the revels in the hall?

Wulþus þlauh, aþal fairƕaus usalþiþ aliþuh þaursu, swe nu ainƕarjizuh and fairƕu.
The glory is fled, the nobility of the world ages and grows sere, as now does every man throughout the world.

Sai! Weis Gaizadaneis, in ‏þamma faurawairþin, hausidedum bi wulþu þans kuniþiudane. Swe þai aþaliggos tawidedun balþos dedins.
Yo! We of the Spear-Danes, in days of yore, heard of the glory of those clan-kings. How those princes performed courageous deeds.

In frumin Guþ gaskop himinans jah airþa. Jah airþa was lausa jah inu laudja, jah riqis was ana wlita diupiþos.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Frauja atuhiddja du saiƕan baurg jah kelikn, gatimriþa fram sunum Adamis.
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of Adam had built.

Eis gibanai sind gafraþjein jah þuhtau jah skulun du usmitan misso in ahmin broþrulubons.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Gronjai muneis inu farwa slepiþ hatiza.
Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

Mein luftuwaggariskip ist full ele.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Magus gaigaþlaih maujai and waggan kausuh ija ana kinnau.
The boy stroked the girl on [along] the chin and kissed her on the cheek.

Unte þeina ist þiudangardi jah mahts jah wulþus, nu jah in aiwins.
For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours, now and forever.

Jah þaþroh Loki falh sik in watadrusa Franaggis, huliþs swe lahs, faifahanuh þar ina ansjus. Is bundans was hairþram is sunaus Wali, akei is sunus Narfi warþ wulfs.
And after that Loki hid himself in Franang's waterfall in the guise of a salmon, and there the gods took him. He was bound with the bowels of his son Vali, but his son Narfi was changed to a wolf.

Meina handus ist in warmamma watin.
My hand is in warm water.

Jabai manna wundans briggai anþaramma mann miþþanei þiudans in gauja ist, skal uslunjan faur wundans afar witoda.
If a man wounds another man while the king is in the province he shall pay a fine for the wound in accordance with the law.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 23 Dec 2016, 16:22

clawgrip wrote:Ah, if only I had a Germlang.
I have collected some materials that might help you to make one - I have got some materials for historical High German and Low German languages, and I used them to help me make both of Koulesch and Town Speech/Urban Basanawa.
Click here and here to know more about me.

夢見るオンナノコ(Dreaming girls)
だれでもプリンセス(All of them are princesses)
恋するオンナノコ(Girls in love)
ホンキ!ムテキ!カンペキ!(Serious! Invincible! Perfect!)
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Isfendil » Sat 24 Dec 2016, 18:34

k1234567890y wrote:
clawgrip wrote:Ah, if only I had a Germlang.
I have collected some materials that might help you to make one - I have got some materials for historical High German and Low German languages, and I used them to help me make both of Koulesch and Town Speech/Urban Basanawa.
If you want to start really early, the university of texas has a grammar of proto-germanic.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Lambuzhao » Sat 24 Dec 2016, 20:43

Image Sadrås

1. Nœ müchta jous glüttramekken dene Drottenfreye yös Übercledes, þë Megghtschippe den Olrumekküns ent hem Vfame.

2. ühiröven gê ye Chürs? ühire der Rettün? ühiröven der Creisures Gjvün? ühiröven bêo þös Eghthefghtes Stel? Ühiröven bêo þös Salles Frix.

3. flîjge þe Glüttra, mitældernmekke en ðursmekke þe Uirsæalderns Heafreyniß , olswæ Olruvœr ë olruorld dirüt.

4. Hore Ðe! Geihere jous Præng-Denische þë Glüttra dennen Künne-Kïningjes ë denne Ealderntege.
Ent hœ dod den Jis enjos þeße strængehortlische Geidete.

5.. Ê þë Nemüne, makked der Frey Matere yeße Übrclede en þë Ærdte. Ent ves þe Ærdt schipfljôß ent geilære, ent übrelecgad þe Deorcheniß þë Dœpfðe.

6.. Ent dûnkemme der Matere Frey dåc sœðen yë Krœcby ent yë Keliken ünj geigestregghte den Adams Shen.

7. Erin þem gegeft mit þë Fürdstrûgghte ent þë Geiwicte, ent müchta þem sjþrogan än mit andere ë þë Bfrodereschipfes.

8. Sluppa geiteræbünlyc þös litenljôß grün Geidensght.

9. Is mej Schetylleschipf mit Eale geipfîllt.

10. vfendle ye Jainglin þë Joungeße duon þë Chünne ent smaicce he hers duon yë Lyre.

11. Orfer erin Ðejnt der Küninjdamen, þe Megghtschipp ent þe Glüttra, nœ ent övenlyc ent olruhinne.

12.. Ent åtreünj hjdad sjhjs læchselyc Der Wäddarün ë dene Frananxüdedriße, ent tjïkke den Get hjs dire. ves he ründtbindt mit þeße Bvïgelîne den Walgjes hem Shanes, bunt schipfe þem Nærvgje hem andern Shane æs tuo äne Hwarlfe.

13.. Is þe Handt mej ë vase Uade.

14.. uhenne Vœre deghte anderne venghte michdoch bêo der Küninj sjtygcht ë yë Schyre, skalr he vitbecan þë Schœce tuo yös Venghz œtr þë Lœghe.


Marinating ideas for old :eng:, :nl-fr:
:mrgreen:
Last edited by Lambuzhao on Wed 28 Dec 2016, 23:09, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Lambuzhao » Sat 24 Dec 2016, 21:00

Konungr wrote:Felt like translating the sentences into Gothic. I've some understand of Gothic, though not fluent.

Nu skuleima hazjan ward himinareikjis, maht gaskapjandis jah is mundrein.
Now we should praise the warden of the kingdom of heaven, the might of the creator and his purpose.

Ƕadre aiƕs uslai‏þ? Ƕadre reidja? Ƕadre huzdagibands? Ƕar stolos at dauht sind? Ƕar gabaur at saliþwos?
Where is the horse gone? Where the rider? Where the giver of treasure? Where are the seats at the feast? Where are the revels in the hall?

Wulþus þlauh, aþal fairƕaus usalþiþ aliþuh þaursu, swe nu ainƕarjizuh and fairƕu.
The glory is fled, the nobility of the world ages and grows sere, as now does every man throughout the world.



Sai! Weis Gaizadaneis, in ‏þamma faurawairþin, hausidedum bi wulþu þans kuniþiudane. Swe þai aþaliggos tawidedun balþos dedins.
Yo! We of the Spear-Danes, in days of yore, heard of the glory of those clan-kings. How those princes performed courageous deeds.

In frumin Guþ gaskop himinans jah airþa. Jah airþa was lausa jah inu laudja, jah riqis was ana wlita diupiþos.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And the earth was formless and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Frauja atuhiddja du saiƕan baurg jah kelikn, gatimriþa fram sunum Adamis.
And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the sons of Adam had built.

Eis gibanai sind gafraþjein jah þuhtau jah skulun du usmitan misso in ahmin broþrulubons.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Gronjai muneis inu farwa slepiþ hatiza.
Colourless green ideas sleep furiously.

Mein luftuwaggariskip ist full ele.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Magus gaigaþlaih maujai and waggan kausuh ija ana kinnau.
The boy stroked the girl on [along] the chin and kissed her on the cheek.

Unte þeina ist þiudangardi jah mahts jah wulþus, nu jah in aiwins.
For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours, now and forever.

Jah þaþroh Loki falh sik in watadrusa Franaggis, huliþs swe lahs, faifahanuh þar ina ansjus. Is bundans was hairþram is sunaus Wali, akei is sunus Narfi warþ wulfs.
And after that Loki hid himself in Franang's waterfall in the guise of a salmon, and there the gods took him. He was bound with the bowels of his son Vali, but his son Narfi was changed to a wolf.

Meina handus ist in warmamma watin.
My hand is in warm water.

Jabai manna wundans briggai anþaramma mann miþþanei þiudans in gauja ist, skal uslunjan faur wundans afar witoda.
If a man wounds another man while the king is in the province he shall pay a fine for the wound in accordance with the law.
Noice. [:)]

I might have looked more into Gothic reconstructions for Loki, Vali, Norfi.

*Wintruggs (rebuilt from :non: Hveðrungr) might be a worthy substitute.
*Naurws, *Naurwus (rebuilt from :non: var. Naurvi, and endings like triggws, or manwus)

Otherwise, keep on with the :got:. Surely you are guided by Arskoul's spirit :mrgreen:
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by clawgrip » Thu 29 Dec 2016, 09:21

k1234567890y and Isfendil thanks, I will think about it.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Void » Sat 31 Dec 2016, 19:13

Lambuzhao wrote:Noice. [:)]

I might have looked more into Gothic reconstructions for Loki, Vali, Norfi.

*Wintruggs (rebuilt from :non: Hveðrungr) might be a worthy substitute.
*Naurws, *Naurwus (rebuilt from :non: var. Naurvi, and endings like triggws, or manwus)

Otherwise, keep on with the :got:. Surely you are guided by Arskoul's spirit :mrgreen:
I have considered employing the same root that is found in Hveðrungr, but it would actually be Ƕaþjuggs, from ƕaþjan "to foam (at the mouth)," semantically similar to *hveða, which I assume means "to roar."

Narfi could be somthing like Narwus or Narus, from PG *narwaz, which I believe is also the origin of ON Narfi.

And thanks. Gothic has served as a sort of "launch pad" into linguistics for me.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Salmoneus » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 17:24

Lambuzhao wrote:Image Sadrås
Does Sadras have a particular place within the family?
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Lambuzhao » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 23:59

Post-apocalyptic Ingvaeonic substrate, with a fair degree of Allemanic borrowings/loanwords at various stages.

Layers/patches of contact over the years.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Salmoneus » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 00:14

Lambuzhao wrote:Post-apocalyptic Ingvaeonic substrate, with a fair degree of Allemanic borrowings/loanwords at various stages.

Layers/patches of contact over the years.
So is that a SF apocalypse, or an alt-hist historical apocalypse?
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 00:33

Salmoneus wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:Post-apocalyptic Ingvaeonic substrate, with a fair degree of Allemanic borrowings/loanwords at various stages.

Layers/patches of contact over the years.
So is that a SF apocalypse, or an alt-hist historical apocalypse?
Mostly in a not so near future after an apocalypse (originally on Earth, but more probably on a distant colony, so leaning more toward a future as alt-hist setting)

The original idea was a kind of future English, then a future-past English, then what a sort of common-tongue contact lang might have come from say, spacefaring Dutch, Germans, English, and some offworld backwater colony of preservationist, Westworldly-ish future-past Anglo-Saxonists (kind of like a Middle Low Folkspraak).

The most apocalyptic part happens to be the sound changes. :roll: [:$]

If I'd have known more about Germanic zonelangs way back when I started, I would have probably made it more like a Folkspraak or a Tutonish (Elias Molee).

But Sadraas has a life of its own, and I am unanimous in that.
[;)]
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Znex » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 07:13

Another sample sentence; the wiki page of the Romance languages gave me the idea of using this as a comparison sentence too:

Old English: Heo scytteþ a þa eagduru ær þam þe heo ete.
Middle English: She shetteth ay th'eye thirle biforen or she ete.
Scots: She aye shuts to the winnock afore she denners.
English: She always closes the window before she dines.
Old High German: Siu sliozit io daz ougtora er danne siu ezze.
German: Sie schließt immer das Fenster, bevor sie isst.
Old Norse: Hón lýkr ei vindaugat fyrr en hón eti.
Norwegian: Hun lukker alltid vinduet før hun spiser.
Swedish: Hon stänger alltid fönstret förrän hon äter.
Gothic: Si loukiþ sinteino augadauro faurþizei si matjai.
Apsiska: Жєна лоуки сєтино воудр фроудази мачє.

(Although my non-English/Apsiskan translations might need to be checked. [:O] )
Last edited by Znex on Mon 29 May 2017, 04:48, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 19:31

Znex wrote:Another sample sentence; the wiki page of the Romance languages gave me the idea of using this as a comparison sentence too:

Old English: Seo scytteþ a þat fenester ær seo ete.
Scots: She aye shuts to the winnock afore she denners.
English: She always closes the window before she dines.
German: Sie schließt immer das Fenster, zuvor sie speise.
Old Norse: Hón lýkr jafnan vindaugat fyrr hón eti.
Swedish: Hon stänger alltid fönstret förr hon äter.
Gothic: Si loukiþ sinteino augadaur faurþizei si matjai.
Apsiska: Жєна лоуки сєтино воудр фроудази мачє.

(Although my non-English/Apsiskan translations might need to be checked. [:O] )
German: Sie schließt immer das Fenster, bevor sie isst.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by Rosenkohl » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 20:11

Austrian
I'm including two translations. One is faithful to the structure (uses a single intransitive verb, which vaguely just means "eat"), and the other is more faithful to the meaning (it specifically refers to "dinner").

Si lōks alge agřo, for i ite.
[sɪˈluːkˈs‿alkɛ‿ˈwɔʒʊ fɔɾɪˈjiːtɛ]

Si lōks alge agřo fora mata bi sido.
[sɪˈluːkˈs‿alkɛ‿ˈwɔʒʊ ˌfɔɪ̯ɾaˈmɔːta ˈfsiːðʊ]
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

si        lōk-s              alge   agř-o
3SG.F.NOM close.IPFV.PRS-3SG always window-N.SG.ACC

for    i    it-e-∅
before COMP eat.IPFV.PRS-SBJV-3SG

fora   mat-a       bi sid-o
before meal-DAT.SG by evening-DAT.SG
Last edited by Rosenkohl on Tue 25 Apr 2017, 20:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Germanic Translation Comparison

Post by qwed117 » Tue 25 Apr 2017, 20:14

Is austrian your conlang?
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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