Fish smoking cigarettes

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Dormouse559
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Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Dormouse559 » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 21:31

I saw this sign (in spoiler) on Facebook, and I thought it would be funny to translate it. But it also includes two third-person plural pronouns (them = cigarette butts, them = fish) that neither the original French nor the English translation distinguish. Only the context clears up the ambiguity. How does your conlang/natlang make the distinction if at all?
Spoiler:
Image
:fra: French
Prière de ne pas jeter vos mégots de cigarettes par terre!!! Les poissons sortent de la mer la nuit pour les fumer, et on essaye de les aider à arrêter. Merci.
/pʁi.jɛʁ də nə pa ʒə.te vo me.go də si.ga.ʁɛt paʁ tɛʁ | le pwa.sɔ̃ sɔʁ.tə də la mɛʁ la nɥi puʁ le fy.me e ɔ̃.n‿e.sɛj də le.z‿e.de a a.ʁe.te | mɛʁ.si/
prayer of NEG NEG throw-INF 2P-POSS.PL butt of cigarette by earth | DEF-PL fish come_out-3P of DEF-F sea DEF-F night for 3P.ACC smoke-INF and 1P try of 3P.ACC help-INF to quit-INF | thank_you


:eng: English
Please do not throw your cigarette butts on the ground!!! The fish come out of the sea at night to smoke them, and we're trying to help them quit. Thank you.



Silvish also relies on context to disambiguate the pronouns. The words for "cigarette butt" and "fish" are both masculine-gender, and if one were feminine, there would be a distinction.

:con: Silvish
Jêtet pà vottro mmeggat de sigareta par ter !!! Lou ppessont sorta dê mê la nu par lou ffumê e on quer d' lou-z êdyô a arrettê. Marchì.
[ʑɛˈtɛt ˈpa vɔt.tʁɔ̃m.mɛˈgat de.si.gəˈʁe.tə paˈtɛʁ | lup.pɛˈsɔ̃nt ˈsɔʁ.tə dɛˈmɛː ləˈny paʁ.luf.fyˈmɛː ʔe.ɔ̃ˈkɛʁ dlu.zɛˈdjɔː ʔa.aʁ.ʁɛˈtɛː | maˈɕi]
throw-2P.IMP NEG 2P-POSS.M.C PL-butt-PL of cigarette by earth | DEF-M.C PL-fish-PL come_out of-DEF sea DEF-F.C night for 3-M.ACC PL-smoke-INF and 1P try of 3-M.ACC-PL help-INF to quit-INF | thank_you
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eldin raigmore
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by eldin raigmore » Wed 08 Aug 2018, 12:35

AFMCLs, Adpihi & Reptigan: Obviation.
Edit: Also, cigarettes are inanimate nonliving gender; fish are animate living gender. They’d take different pronouns even if both were obviative or neither were obviative.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 03:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Reyzadren » Wed 08 Aug 2018, 22:21

:con: griuskant (without the conscript)

kaensh spuva paekraipent ki yavgroug. haezh aeida uazh hin paekraipa zhaez aeskes slia roesa raeses ryga.
/'kenʃ 'spuva 'pekraipənt ki 'javgrɔug. 'heʒ 'eida 'uaʒ hin 'pekraipa ʒezˤ 'eskəs 'slia 'rɯsa 'resəs 'rYga/
IMP.NEG junk-V cigarette-N-PASS-PST to just.place. fish out-V ocean for cigarette-V therefore 1PL try-V help-V 3PL stop-V
Last edited by Reyzadren on Tue 23 Oct 2018, 22:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 07:59

:con: Yélian

Acat, sanim dinum o'yigáran cidepuravasut pas pastor!! An'igatyan væcurʻi iy veta u paru can totʻi, èpa cenʻit værbaldest pi tyáfadʻi. Anaslocan.

[ˈaːkɐt, ˈsaːnɨm ˈdiːnʉm ɔ̈ɕɨˈxaːɾɐn kɨdəˈpuːɾɐʋɐsʉ‿pɐs ˈpastɔ̈d̟ | ɐnɨˈxaːt͡ʃɐn vəˈkuɾʔi a̯iː ˈveːtɐ u ˈpaːɾu kɐn ˈtotʔi, ˈɛpɐ ˈkenʔɨt vəɾˈbaldəs‿pɨ ˈt͡ʃaːɸɐdʔi | ˈaːnɐsˌloːkɐn]
please, 2PL.POSS stump-PL DEF.GEN=cigarette-PL NEG-dispose-JUS.INV.3SG.INAN at ground | DEF.ANIM=fish-PL come_out-3PL out_of sea TEMP night for smoke-3PL, and 3PL.OBL CON-help-1PLEX that ABL-stop-3PL | thank-much
Please do not throw your cigarette butts on the ground!!! The fish come out of the sea at night to smoke them, and we're trying to help them quit. Thank you.
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


Oh, and there is a [ɕ] in my name!
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Lao Kou » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 12:41

Image Géarthnuns

Hésh la vük ganajdadsüch vau zamsauv çöbögdéaz, híhílel. Chö shebsöv chök víöbsöp la cha haransav, öre rhüküch ba çöpömatíazh dínathauth, kfö seth lav rhöböch vdöirha ban mföbalaf jebeth. Kfazhal síuthta.
2PL-NOM.NEG AUX.PRES DEF.PL.NEG cigarette.butt-ACC.PL.NEG DEF.NEG ground-LOC.NEG throw.away-HORT, please-HORT | DEF night-LOC DEF.PL fish-NOM.PL AUX.PRES DEF sea-LOC, in.order.to 3PL-ACC PTCL smoke come.out, and 3SG AUX.PRES.IMPERS 3SG-ACC.PL help-ADV.PRES PTCL.CAUS quit try | 2PL-DAT thank-HORT
Please do not throw your cigarette butts on the ground!!! The fish come out of the sea at night to smoke them, and we're trying to help them quit. Thank you.

cigarette butts ganajdadsüch ← rhüküch them
fish víöbsöp ← rhöböch them

(A Géarthçins would rather self-immolate than use three exclamation points in a row. And on a public sign, oh, the horror.)
Last edited by Lao Kou on Thu 09 Aug 2018, 15:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Dormouse559
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Dormouse559 » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 14:45

Lao Kou wrote:
Thu 09 Aug 2018, 12:41
cigarette butts ganajdadsüch ← rhüküch them
fish víöbsöp ← rhöböch them
Hmm, is your gloss correct? It seems to match víöbsöp to DEF.

Lao Kou wrote:(A Géarthçins would rather self-immolate than use three exclamation points in a row. And on a public sign, oh, the horror.)
(Dear me, a whole culture of punctuation sticklers.) You did it without prompting, but I should have said that if you want to remove a couple or all three exclamation points, you can. I just wanted to transcribe the sign as written.
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Lao Kou » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 15:26

Dormouse559 wrote:
Thu 09 Aug 2018, 14:45
Lao Kou wrote:
Thu 09 Aug 2018, 12:41
cigarette butts ganajdadsüch ← rhüküch them
fish víöbsöp ← rhöböch them
Hmm, is your gloss correct? It seems to match víöbsöp to DEF.
It was not correct. "the fish" seem to have gotten vaporized in the glossing process. It should, hopefully, be correct (and edited above) now.
(A Géarthçins would rather self-immolate than use three exclamation points in a row. And on a public sign, oh, the horror.)
(Dear me, a whole culture of punctuation sticklers.) You did it without prompting, but I should have said that if you want to remove a couple or all three exclamation points, you can. I just wanted to transcribe the sign as written.
Alas, I can't see the original image. The issue here is not of punctuation, but of custom. Emotional effusiveness, spoken or written (as indicated by three exclamation points here) is usually reined in.
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 15:43

:con: Çedara

ñe giçad lus cicca dej cõvulvÿ ala derr!!! domù las notdes, li piçes geçin eja mári quia is fumen, conámoçe ageovar qu cessan.
Graçi mulde tãde.


PROHIB throw<PRS.ACT.SBJV>2PL DEF.N.ACC.PL <tiny bit>PL PRP=DEF.M.PL scroll<DIM>PL PRP=DEF.F.SG land | while DEF.F.PL night.PL DEF.M.PL fish.PL exit<PRS.ACT.INDIC>3PL PRP=DEF.N.PL sea.PL REL 3PL.N.OBJ smoke<PRS.ACT.SBJV>3PL | attempt<PRS.ACT.INDIC>1PL=CNJ help<PRS.ACT.INF> REL.N cease<PRS.ACT.INDIC>3PL
thank.PL many.F.PL much<AUG>F.PL


Very fun little translation. I laughed at the absurdity almost the whole way thru. Thanks!

Marchì!!
[xP]

BTW: I found some neat-O resources folks might like/use:

"How to tell someone not to do something in latin" (NEG.SBJVs, just for brush-up's sake):
https://www.latinitium.com/blog/how-to- ... g-in-latin

José Juan del Col, Diccionario auxiliar: español-latino para el uso moderno del Latín
https://books.google.com/books?id=0PXHg ... us&f=false

W00T! An online companion to
Josephus María Mir, Nova Verba Latina
:mrgreen:
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 16:22

:con: Sadrås

BITTEN UŒ: DrēghðenÐe nej enilre Tebekscheabve duon þë Ærdte!!!
Orfer kumma yös Sêdyr tuonichtes vüt, dåc rjaigghðen þejr,
Ent ünsrtjœkka jous fürdtuo hælvan dåc holghðen þis üv.

Spoiler:
ask<INF> well | throw<SBJV>=2SG.SUB NEG NEG.all<PL> tobacco.scab<PL>OBJ PRP DEF.F.OBJ earth.OBJ

CNJ come<PRS> DEF.N.SUB.PL sea.creature<PL> PRP=night<PL> ADV | REL.CNJ smoke<SBJV> 3PL.INAN.OBJ

CNJ undertake<PRS> 1PL.SUB PRP=PRP help<INF> REL.CNJ hold<SBJV> 3PL.INAN.SUB ADV
For some reason, the Sadrås version makes me think that they are talking about crustaceans or horseshoe-crabs, instead of 'fishy-fish'. But, well, there it is.
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Lao Kou » Thu 09 Aug 2018, 17:02

Image Japoné語

Ô願ille, dja 投guétez pas vos 吸殻 au le 地面 ni! Les 魚 oué ils ga la 夜 ni l'海 cara 出te来rë pour les 吸ï ni, et l'on ga 試mitèrë de les 助quèrë 止mé (禁煙é) ni. Merci.
Ônégaille, dja naguétez pas vos souïgara au le djimain ni! Les sacana oué ils ga la yorë ni l'oumie cara détecourë pour les souï ni, et l'on ga cocoraumitèrë de les taçouquèrë yamé (quineiné) ni. Merci.
please, NEG throw-IMP NEG your.PL cigarette.butt ACC DEF ground ALL | DEF.PL fish TOP 3PL NOM DEF night LOC DEF=sea from come.out 3PL.ACC smoke.GER ALL, and 3SG NOM try.PRESPROG of 3PL.ACC help stop.GER (quit.smoking.GER) ALL | thank.you
Please do not throw your cigarette butts on the ground!!! The fish come out of the sea at night to smoke them, and we're trying to help them quit. Thank you.
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Imralu » Fri 10 Aug 2018, 18:15

:tan: Swahili:

Tafadhali usitupe chini vipande vyako vya sigara!! Samaki wanatoka baharini usiku ili wavivute na tunajaribu kuwasaidia kuacha. Asante.
tafadhali u-si-tup(a)-e chini vipande vy-ako vy-a sigara | samaki wa-na-tok(a) bahari-ni usiku ili wa-vi-vut(a)-e na tu-na-jaribu ku-wa-saidi(a) ku-ach(a) | asante
please 2S-NEG-throw-SBJV down parts(CL8) CL8-GEN.2S CL8-GEN cigarette(s)(CL9/10) | fish(CL10) CL2-PRES-exit ocean-LOC(CL16/17/18) in.order CL2-CL8-pull/smoke-SBJV and 1P-PRES-try INF/GER(CL15)-CL2-help INF/GER(CL15)-cease/leave | thank.you
Please do not throw your cigarette butts on the ground!!! The fish come out of the sea at night to smoke them, and we're trying to help them quit. Thank you.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
________
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Imralu » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 04:54

:con: Ngehu (AKA Wena)

He ho gwe ze zyelubu numbo zywe nggovwo wo. Gwi e bye dazwa wi dwo u bo mo zywe gwe nana i nggehwa zye zyu dwe i mwe bi. Wa i ho!
JUSS.E goodE and NEG.E put.on.ground.A remnant GEN.DEF-PL.E cigarette GEN.2S | fish COP leaveA sea ADV-COP blackE ADV wantA consumeA GEN.DEF-PL.E and 1P.EXCL COP tryA cause GEN.C DEF.PL.E COP ableE ceaseA | 2S COP goodE
Please do not throw your cigarette butts on the ground!!! The fish come out of the sea at night to smoke them, and we're trying to help them quit. Thank you.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
________
MY MUSIC
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Iyionaku » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 11:53

:con: Caelian

Güzernal, Zanëz kë tirumit galapuil Zabyeng birgyoses!! Käitüsed parruiw të ganbajung dacijederri Tyeng tijetoknily hat pëc Rer Tef huvokrinför hondus gen. Folcës.
[gyzɛɾˈnal, zaˈnəs kʰe tʰiruˈmit galaˈpʰʊɪ̯l zaˈbʲɛŋ biɾgʲɔʒɛʃ | kʰæɪ̯tʰyˈʒɛd pʰaˈrʊɪ̯ɥ̯ tʰə ganbaˈjuŋ daʝɪ̯ɛdɛˈri tʲɛŋ tɪ̯ɛtʰokˈniʎ hat pʰəç rɛh tʰɛɸ huvɔkrinˈβøɾ hɔnˈduʃ gɛn | βɔlˈʝəʃ]
please, 2SG.VOC1 NEG throw.2SG>3PL cigarette.ACC 2SG.GEN-ACC ground.SUBL | fish.COLINDEF night.TERM at sea.ELA HAB-come.3PLDEF>3SG 3PLDEF.ACC smoke.3PLDEF>3CPLINDEF for, and 1PLEX.NOM 3PL.FEM.DAT help.1PLEX>3PLDEF-try end.DAT for | thanks
Please do not throw your cigarette butts on the ground!!! The fish come out of the sea at night to smoke them, and we're trying to help them quit. Thank you.
Heaven and Earth, but I feel the color of the cake when you keep the Victoria.
I had a mantra on the moss and I had to go to bed.


Oh, and there is a [ɕ] in my name!
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Omzinesý
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Omzinesý » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 15:50

Kôrem

"Please do not throw your cigarette butts on the ground!!! , and we're trying to help them quit. Thank you."

Ôl obeli nute sigareteg Lomba!!!
ôl ob<e>l-i nuta-e sigarete-g
Neg throw<AG>-IMPER/FUT butt-SOME cigarette-POSS DEF.ground
Please do not throw your cigarette butts on the ground!!!

node Sute Rila ipi ari lbel
n<o>de sute ipi ar-i lb<e>l
come.out<PAT> DEF.fish DEF.sea night and-they burn<AG>
The fish come out of the sea at night to smoke them

asu lpep kep ru ae pigep
asu lp<e>p k<e>p ru a-e pig<e>p
1 try<AG> CAUS.V<AG> COMPL 3-PL quite<AG>
and we're trying to help them quit.

The "topic" or trigger of the second sentence is 'the cigarettes'. The topic is just dropped.
The "topic" of the third sentence is 'we'. Fish are referred to with pronoun "ae", which well could also refer to the butts.
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by Alessio » Sun 26 Aug 2018, 11:07

:ita: Italiano

Italian does not make any distinction, unless you can somehow find two nouns with different genders. The most natural translation would be

Siete pregati di non gettare mozziconi di sigaretta per terra. I pesci vengono fuori dal mare la sera per fumarli, e stiamo cercando di aiutarli a smettere.

Unfortunately, "mozzicone" and "pesce" (here in plural, "mozziconi" and "pesci") are both masculine, so you need to use the same -li suffix on both verbs.
However, if you drop "butts" and just leave "cigarettes" (sigaretta -e, feminine), you can see a difference:

Siete pregati di non gettare sigarette per terra. I pesci vengono fuori dal mare la sera per fumarle, e stiamo cercando di aiutarli a smettere.

On a side note, I'm not quite able to translate this sentence in Russian, but I'm almost certain there would be a noticeable difference, since the verb помогать/помочь (to help) needs its object to be marked with the dative case rather than the accusative, unlike the verb курить/покурить (to smoke).
:ita: :eng: [:D] | :fra: :esp: [:)] | :rus: :nld: [:|] | :deu: :fin: :ell: [:(] | :con: Hecathver, Hajás

Tin't inameint ca tót a sàm stê żǒv'n e un po' cajoun, mo s't'armâgn cajoun an vǒl ménga dîr t'armâgn anc żǒven...
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Re: Fish smoking cigarettes

Post by spanick » Fri 12 Oct 2018, 17:27

I had so much fun translating this, I did it in three of my conlangs!

Nortsääenglisch – North See English
Bide, vorwörpe naucht jour zigarätstübe an dät grunn!!! In dät näicht kumes daa vische uut dät zää vor rüüke hem, ann wii onjine hem stope helpe. Dankjou.
/bɪdə voɐvœɐpə nauχt jouɐ zɪgarɛtstʏbə an dɛt gɾunː | ɪn dɛt nɛɪçt kuməs daː vɪʒə uːt dɛt zɛː voɐ ryːkə hem anː viː onjɪnə hem stopə helpə | daŋkjou/
please throw.away-IMP NEG 2PL.POSS cigarette.butt-PL on DEF.N.S ground | in DEF.N.S night come-PL DEF.PL fish-PL out DEF.N.S sea for smoke-INF 3S.OBL and 1PL try-PL 3S.OBL stop-INF help-INF|thank.you

Gotski - Sortsbergish
Molim, ne verped eröros opušakas an erdos!!! En nahts utköman fiskas sivs sofož jos rükan, jah ves ussučam heopan jos. Takas.
/molim ne verped erøros opuʃakas an erdos | en naxts uːtkøman fisks sivs sofoʒ jos ryːkan jax ves uːsuːʧam heopan jos | takas/
please NEG throw-2PL.SBJ 2PL.GEN-F.PL.ACC butt-F.PL.ACC on earth-F.PL.GEN | in night-M.S.GEN come.out-3PL fish-M.PL.NOM sea-M.S.GEN so.for 3PL.ACC smoke-INF and 1PL seek.out-1PL help-INF 3PL.ACC | thank-M.PL

Túrnnu - Turnian
Per fäver, nun jäter vus cipes de sigaräts per tir!!! Les písces sortin de le mär la no per eläs fúmer, ä nus provens äzúder d’els äd äräster. Grases.
/pr̩ fɛvr̩ nʌn ʒɛtr̩ vus kipəs də sigɑræts pr̩ tir | ləs paɪʃəs soɾtɨn də lə mɛr lɑ no pɾ̩ elæs faʊmr̩ æ nʌs provəns ɛzudr̩ dels æt ɛræstr | grasəs/
for favor NEG throw.away-INF 2PL.POSS butt-PL of cigarette-PL for earth | DEF.M.PL fish-PL exit-3PL of DEF.M.S sea DEF.F.S night for 3PL.F smoke-INF and 1PL try-1PL help-INF of=3PL.M to stop-INF | grace-PL
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