RIP cursive handwriting..

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elemtilas
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by elemtilas » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 02:00

qwed117 wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 01:31
As elem said, most Americans wouldn't view Frislander's writing as cursive or "script". We are pretty much taught that the only right way is the one in the image that elem posted.
I don't remember being fed a line anything like "only right way" to write! But yes, I wouldn't call the British example "cursive" or "running hand" at all. To me at least, it seems to me to be in a category of its own: maybe joined printing?

Also, I've never heard of "small case" letters. Is that an error? Are they not called "lower case" in England?
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by clawgrip » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 02:51

As near as I can tell, the basic evolution of cursive handwriting in North America starts with the British roundhand/copperplate, from which Spencerian Method developed, followed by Palmer Method, and from here the Zaner Bloser Method. The D'Nealian Method evolved from the Zaner Bloser Method.

I can't really figure out the evolution of handwriting in England.

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(Let's not even comment on that "Handwriting without Tears" Method)

Personally, I think I learned the Zaner Bloser Method or something very similar to it (for example my T would have a loop on the top left as in the Palmer Method, but the bottom of the T would resemble the Zaner Bloser method. Is that Bradshaw Hall style typical of British handwriting in general? Because to me and probably most others from North America, it seems like a rather awkward transitional form between printed letters and the cursive writing that we were taught.
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by sangi39 » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 02:54

The handwriting examples posted by Davush are something I've seen in a number of different primary schools around the country (southern Wales in the 90s and then schools in Yorkshire for the last 20 years at least). From what I can tell, it's a compromise script, one that everyone can read while showing them how "best" to join up their writing so that it looks neat. The older children get, the more personalised their style gets as they become more competent, and in at least some cases it leads into something resembling the handwriting in the link posted by Elemtilas (I've posted my "neat" handwriting in the "handwriting" thread over in Ephemera before, but someone I now work with who's a year younger than me I think has amazing handwriting).

I don't know what it's like in the US, or anywhere else, but "oh my god, your handwriting is awful" runs in both the direction of a doctor-esque scrawl and printed letters (although in the case of the latter it's more of a joke about the lack of joining up than a comment on legibility, as is the case with the former).

(at least in my experience, most people I've known who are around about my age use something along the lines of Zaner-Bloser and Palmer in Clawgrip's image, older generations seem to tend towards this as well. Younger primary school students I've worked with recently, although we're talking age 8 and under, used something closer to Getty Dubay. My guess would be that style become more "flowing" with practice)
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by clawgrip » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 03:01

sangi39 wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 02:54
...doctor-esque scrawl...
This is of course not limited to English:

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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 03:27

The first two examples Claw posted are what I was taught around... Oh, grade 3 or 4? I don't recall. Before that we were all taught how to print. And from grade 4 up to maybe 8, we were supposed to use script, and some teachers were more draconian about it than others. By the time I got to High School, it was more about legibility than anything else, and in college the vast majority of work was types, and what wasn't could be in anything the professor could decipher easily. (I think I got good grades sometimes, especially on tests, because I spoke and discussed well in class so my professors assumed my scrawl was something equally intelligent.)
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by qwed117 » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 04:17

Anyways, I don't actively use cursive since cursive is hard to read, and hard to write properly. I usually conjoin certain letter combinations, especially those with e. I'm looking through a written test I did a while ago to see the ligatures I write: "dent", "ea", "che", "ng", "ve", "au", "us", "me", "tl", "ring", "at", "ming", "ir", "ump", "na", "al", "ly", "ry", "ht", "wh", "le", "hange", "at", "hat", "end", "nce", "ty", "nly", 'ue", "ne", "ary", "ed", "ant", "ve", "ul", "ex", "hi", "ok", "ate", "ce", "ing", "wn", "ax"*, "ns" "we".
Most of the combinations are in line with "cursive" (namely Zaner-Bloser), but merely by the fact that the letters are similar between "Print" and "cursive".

I also write, less often, in a form of highly stylized cursive that I use for notes that I won't ever look at again, but am forced to write for fear of looking uninterested during a teacher's lesson. It simplifies most letters between the first and last to a squiggly line. I figure that I probably have small distinct movements for each letter that are hidden in said line; alas, they are indecipherable without a electron microscope.
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by All4Ɇn » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 05:10

clawgrip wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 03:01
sangi39 wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 02:54
...doctor-esque scrawl...
This is of course not limited to English:

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Wow I feel so much better about my Japanese handwriting now! [xP]
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 05:40

I recognize 不, and little else.
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by qwed117 » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 05:43

If I'm looking right, I think I see a る
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 06:30

qwed117 wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 05:43
If I'm looking right, I think I see a る
Weird, cuz that isn't Japanese.
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by qwed117 » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 07:27

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The hiragana 'ru' isn't Japanese or the Japanese form isnt Japanese?
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 07:40

Wow. I looked at the form a ton and never noticed any kana in it until now. Soooooo...

I'm an idiot, disregard my comment.
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by Lao Kou » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 08:07

clawgrip wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 03:01

This is of course not limited to English:

Image
Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 06:30
qwed117 wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 05:43
If I'm looking right, I think I see a る
Weird, cuz that isn't Japanese.
It would be interesting, if clawgrip himself knows it (or if Des knows), to see what this is supposed to be. It's doctorese, but I get (no る)

褚交。传 X 变 この (or 防?) 与 中医所
不能 医院 し。就 様 々 (交?)
不能。这期句字通院 话度

(Oh, maybe 褚る, but I don't think so)

Still, complete mush.
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 09:01

I was taught something like D'Nealian or Zaner-Bloser in elementary school. I don't get the Getty Dubay; will it make up its mind whether to be joined up or not? Anyway, like sangi experienced, my teachers started to value legibility more, and I switched to block letters. I can write in cursive if I want to, but I find it laborious and there's never any practical reason to.
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by clawgrip » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 10:13

We can tell it's Japanese because:
1. the form itself is in Japanese, e.g. "労務不能であったと認めた期間"
2. the date is 平成29 (2017 in the Japanese calendar)
3. the name of the disease is two-thirds hiragana (うつ病)

This is a list of side effects of the disease (depression) and/or the reason this person was unable to work.

As for what it says, it's pretty much illegible. Some of Lao Kou's guesses involve Chinese-only characters.

The first character is not 褚, as it clearly has 疒 and is very likely 病. The second one looks like 交, but I don't think 病交 is a word.

Then it's a bit of a jumble. I can identify the odd 院, it looks like there's a 医, the right side of the middle line looks kind of like 就務 (followed by 不能). I found one and only one result on google for 就務不能.

The last line, we have 不能、?期間?通院?? "Couldn't work and for a period had to make regular visits to the hospital" ???
Last edited by clawgrip on Sat 11 Nov 2017, 12:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by Lao Kou » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 11:22

clawgrip wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 10:13

3. the name of the disease is two-thirds hiragana (うつ病)
鬱病

Ya know, life would be a whole lot simpler if we all just wrote in 漢字. [;)]
Some of Lao Kou's guesses involve Chinese-only characters.
I had hoped this was a given, since it's a Japanese form. I was only going for what things looked like, and it's still mush.
The first character is not 褚, as it clearly has 疒 and is very likely 病.
Well, 褚 makes no sense anyway, and now that you say 病, I can see it. But how to proceed? [O.o]
The last line, we have 不能、?期間?通院?? "Couldn't work and for a period had to make regular visits to the hospital" ???
Line 3: 不能定期 ?
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by clawgrip » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 12:29

Yes, definitely 定. like 病 for you, once you say it, it becomes obvious.

maybe:
不能。定期的?通院診療
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by Tanni » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 12:42

Egerius wrote:
Thu 09 Nov 2017, 19:03
I was taught cursive in grade 2 (Vereinfachte Ausgangsschrift), but my usual handwriting continues to be terrible to this day.
We were told Lateinische Ausgangsschrift right from the beginning (1. grade).

several cursive writing styles
Two years later, I received a small book on improving one's handwriting and the look of one's schoolwork: Inside were a few different scripts, and I soon learned to read and write the Kurrentschrift (which was included there).
In 3. or 4. grade, we got a sheet of paper showing Kurrent (actually some advertising material form a pen manufacturing company) and we learned to write and read Kurrentschrift for two weeks.

In 5. grade I was forced to do some additional "pretty-writing", cause our teacher (I did not like him)
thought that my handwirting was bad. I wrote very much back then, so I think my handwriting was more advanced then that of my fellow students. This teacher did not prepare very much for his class, but showed us films instead, and gave us the homework to write summaries. To do the homework, it was essential to take notes in a darkened room without windows, with the only light coming from the film, so your handwriting will not be good. Usually, we got lots of homework, and I did some exhausting sports, and I was bullied a lot, so no wonder when your handwriting is bad.
Later I got interested in other writing systems, and later still, in calligraphy.
So yes, I still use cursive – multiple forms of it.
In 9. or 10 grade, we were offered to learn Deutsche Einheitsstenographie (a German shorthand), and my mother, who made me interested in stenography, said that my (stenographic) handwriting looked very good.

Later, I wrote two Schreibschriftprogramme (cursive writing programs) in Turbo Pascal for the MSX Computer System, one for Lateinische Ausgangsschrift and one for Kurrentschrift for screen, plotter and printer output devices. It was real cursive wirting, cause the connetion of the letters was form the last point of the previous to the first point of the next letter, including kerning.
... And I'm a lefty.
I was born a lefty, too, but was made use my right hand to write.

In Germany, there is a discussion about the introduction of the so-called Grundschrift. There is a Change.org petition to still teach cursive writing.

Here further Information about cursive writing and the problems students face with the so-called Vereinfachte Ausgangsschrift and the Grundschrift.

https://www.handschrift-schreibschrift.de/

https://www.handschrift-schreibschrift. ... gsschrift/
https://www.handschrift-schreibschrift. ... ifterwerb/
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 22:18

I was only taught cursive for a week or so in 3rd grade and because of that obviously never used it. I've always had absolutely horrible handwriting. My D always looked like Δ just to give an example. Because I was sick of being embarrassed about my handwriting I spent a lot of time learning French cursive last year and now I find it a lot neater and easier (albeit less quick) to write in a modified form of French cursive.
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Re: RIP cursive handwriting..

Post by lsd » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 17:04

I wonder if, like for the endangered languages, conlangs is a cure...
Do you have any cursive scripts added to your print for your conlangs...
Can you produce comparative examples...
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